The new krth

[oldies76]

I don't even believe KRTH had 300 1960's songs even in their heydays! Remember all that repetition during the Coffey era? And remember, they were very, very heavy in motown with Beatles & Beach Boys music and that one dreaded hit from 1967 and movie music, like "Unchained Melody".

KRTH was never a good 60's station. Maybe in the 1980's when they played nearly everything in sight, but nothing since then and certainly not today.

 

[davideduardo]

Mister krth101 asked if we hear repetition on "the new KRTH" and my answer is an unequivocal yes: Jet Airliner, Lights, Sweet Home Alabama, Young Turks, Blinded By The Light, Feels Like The First Time, Carry On Wayward Son and You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet have all been played this afternoon and I may not be hearing those songs every day but it certainly seems like it. And that fershlugginer Brown Eyed Girl still gets played over and over and over. I agree that the playlist has shrunk: three hundred 1960s songs have been replaced by fifty '70s-80s songs.*

(*Rough estimate; please do not ask for documentation.)

Documentation: 541 songs rotated in the last 7 days.

That's down from the 700 or more in the older-leaning AC version of the format of earlier this year.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't even believe KRTH had 300 1960's songs even in their heydays! Remember all that repetition during the Coffey era?

Even in the tightest rotation days, there were about 380 songs in regular rotation, and that period did not live all that long.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Today, KOOL here in Phoenix played Starbuck's "Moonlight Feels Right". Fine, fun little song. Liked it when it was new, not offensive to me today, but while it played, I thought "Gee, that's really kinda trite." I imagine most of what I played on the radio in 1976 would hit me that way.

I've grown....my tastes have expanded, refined, whatever.

This has always been one of my favorite pop songs of the mid seventies. Definitely sets a mood (I always picture a warm southern beach in the evening with a full moon and the singer's hot girlfriend) plus a very cool xylophone solo in the middle. A tasty tune that doesn't sound like all the others. I am glad it seems to be regaining some popularity, although like any of my favorite songs, the more KRTH spins it, the more burned it gets, and then another one bites the dust. Hasn't happened for this one yet though, mercifully.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Not just unscientific but atypical. The average listener listens in 12-minute bursts at roughly the same times each day. By the time they hear a song repeated they couldn't tell you how long it's been since they heard it last.

Listening to a radio station today for prolonged, concentrated periods of time is not typical behavior.

Have any of you guys ever stopped to think that maybe its not typical behavior BECAUSE radio discourages that type of behavior? The programmers say, most listening is done in 12 minutes bursts, and the standard deviation on that is just a few more minutes, so why program for a longer duration?

I know of no other industry that actively seeks to alienate it's hard core users to encourage sampling by the casual users. And when you have a OLDIES playlist that turns over every 36-48 hours, that is exactly what you are doing. You're not just alienating them, you are insulting them. So in the end, casual users is all radio has. It wasn't always that way. I understand CHR and other current based formats is a different story. I also understand radio has a lot more competition from other entertainment sources than before, but content rules. Give them something worth listening to, and they will stay. But radio doesn't, so they don't.

 

[davideduardo]

Have any of you guys ever stopped to think that maybe its not typical behavior BECAUSE radio discourages that type of behavior? The programmers say, most listening is done in 12 minutes bursts, and the standard deviation on that is just a few more minutes, so why program for a longer duration?

The reason listening is in "incidents" of relatively short average duration is that people do other things while listening... the go to the restroom, they take breaks, they wall outside, walk down the hall, go to get in the car, have phone calls, have conversations with employees or friends or neighbors, etc., etc.

I know of no other industry that actively seeks to alienate it's hard core users to encourage sampling by the casual users.

"Radio" does not sample anyone. Nielsen Audio, ex-Arbitron, does. And they take a proportional sample of all people... heavy radio listeners, light ones, non-listeners. Among the things we see is that heavy listeners... those that spend 5+ hours a week with a station... also listen in incidents that average less than 15 minutes long; they just have more of those incidents than the lighter listeners.

And when you have a OLDIES playlist that turns over every 36-48 hours, that is exactly what you are doing.

Let's take a heavy listener... one who listens 5 hours a week. They listen for roughly 1/30th of all hours in the week. So if a song repeats 3 times a week, on average they will hear that song once every 10 weeks. Very simple math.

You're not just alienating them, you are insulting them.

That explains why they keep coming back, day after day, doesn't it? Not.

So in the end, casual users is all radio has.

They are not casual listeners. Actually, they are typical listeners who have lives. They do all kinds of things that interrupt sustained listening... taking the trash out, taking the kids to the bus stop, walking the dog... and then they come back and listen a bit more and then they repeat the cycle, whether they listen 1 hour a week or 15 hours.

It wasn't always that way.

Yes, it was. It is just that the diary did not encourage precisely writing down actual listening. So the real 85 minutes of listening in the morning, made up of 5 or 6 discreet incidents got written down as "6 t0 9 AM" in the diary.

I understand CHR and other current based formats is a different story. I also understand radio has a lot more competition from other entertainment sources than before, but content rules. Give them something worth listening to, and they will stay. But radio doesn't, so they don't.

What actually happens is when you increase library size, the incidents become fewer as expectations are not being met as to have a larger library, more and more mediocre songs are added and the warmth of the station decreases.

 

[oldies76]

Let's take a heavy listener... one who listens 5 hours a week. They listen for roughly 1/30th of all hours in the week. So if a song repeats 3 times a week, on average they will hear that song once every 10 weeks. Very simple math.

This is an average David...There are many instances where listeners deviate their "radio listening schedule" and listen at other times of the day, or in the car and hearing the same song more frequently. It happens! You guys make it sound like it's set in stone.....I guarantee you, it's not.

What actually happens is when you increase library size, the incidents become fewer as expectations are not being met as to have a larger library, more and more mediocre songs are added and the warmth of the station decreases.

Mediocre songs?? No David, they are great songs, just being ignored by classic hits radio. Some could be classified as mediocre, but they are far and few in between. Two years ago you could have said "Moonlight Feels Right" was a very mediocre song, but suddenly it's testing and getting airplay and it's not so mediocre anymore, isn't it. Since a classic hits library has between 400 and 700 songs in it, I believe many GREAT songs are being avoided, not just because they may or may not test below standards, it's because a station would not want to exceed it's rotation threshold to begin with, no matter the outcome of a song's rating in an auditorium. There's always limitations. 1500 songs are tested, 1200 make the grade, only 700 are aired.

 

[oldies76]

Have any of you guys ever stopped to think that maybe its not typical behavior BECAUSE radio discourages that type of behavior? The programmers say, most listening is done in 12 minutes bursts, and the standard deviation on that is just a few more minutes, so why program for a longer duration?

I know of no other industry that actively seeks to alienate it's hard core users to encourage sampling by the casual users. And when you have a OLDIES playlist that turns over every 36-48 hours, that is exactly what you are doing. You're not just alienating them, you are insulting them. So in the end, casual users is all radio has. It wasn't always that way. I understand CHR and other current based formats is a different story. I also understand radio has a lot more competition from other entertainment sources than before, but content rules. Give them something worth listening to, and they will stay. But radio doesn't, so they don't.

My theory is that radio has basically more or less played the same ole, same ole for many years, listeners have gotten used to those songs, which makes them forget most of the others (hundreds of other charted hits from the 60's to the 80's) and therefore, those are the hits that they like today, oblivious of the fact that there are hundreds of other songs they have forgotten over the years, due to this "brainwash" the listeners have endured for years on end!! Psychological!!

Believe me, if they had heard most of these other songs to BEGIN WITH, then those would also factor in as well. So when an "obscure" one finally comes on (Moonlight Feels Right---obscure just a year or two ago), the "oh wow" factor kicks in and suddenly they remember and boom.....it'll test well again!

Let's all sing now......."Will it Go Round in Circles........."

 

[ChannelFlipper]

"Radio" does not sample anyone. Nielsen Audio, ex-Arbitron, does. And they take a proportional sample of all people... heavy radio listeners, light ones, non-listeners. Among the things we see is that heavy listeners... those that spend 5+ hours a week with a station... also listen in incidents that average less than 15 minutes long; they just have more of those incidents than the lighter listeners.

David, I know who samples the radio industry. I meant that radio sacrifices its multiple-hour listeners for the ones who only want to sample it during the day when they are on their way to get groceries and the dog groomed.

Take for example, oh I don't know, me. I will have spent 14 hours in the office today, mainly sitting at my desk and listening to music while I slave away in front of a computer. Although I have a radio right by me that I can turn on at any time, I know it will insult me with the ridiculously small playlists. I have determined I will not be subjected to them and another round of Tiny Dancer, Brown Eyed Girl, and Oye Como Va, soooo, I listen to internet radio, my cd's/ipod device, etc. Haven't heard local radio all day. I did drive to lunch and had the radio on, but I have SiriusXM, so that was on during the drive. So out of 14 hours of listening to music today, local radio got 0% of my time.

Did I mention that I am in most demos that aren't directed to pimply-faced kids AND I have disposable income? But I guess I am just an outlier and radio (and their advertisers) don't really want or need my business. They certainly are not getting it.

 

[davideduardo]

This is an average David...There are many instances where listeners deviate their "radio listening schedule" and listen at other times of the day, or in the car and hearing the same song more frequently. It happens! You guys make it sound like it's set in stone.....I guarantee you, it's not.

We know all that. Some of us here have been making a career out of interpreting the ratings and working with programming for many decades. You have as yet, in the years you have been posting, to offer anything that has not been considered... and even tried... in the past.

However, radio works on averages. It is a mass medium, and is prêt-à-porter, not a custom design for each user. So we program to the average and above average listener to our format and our station. Such listenership has been eminently disectable: by computer using mechanical diaries and software since the 90's and by actual diary review dating back to the late 60's.

So radio stations program to reach the greatest number of people possible. This is done by looking at ranges of behavior and averaging them and looking at the distribution of the extremes. Your taste and preferences are the kind of thing that represent behavior that can not be satisfied by radio, so we don't even try.

Mediocre songs?? No David, they are great songs, just being ignored by classic hits radio.

Songs that score as neutral or below by the average listener are mediocre. Mediocre and "median" or "mean" have the same roots. In any case, these are not good songs. They are mediocre, dangerous songs that don't make listeners on average, want to return.

Some could be classified as mediocre, but they are far and few in between. Two years ago you could have said "Moonlight Feels Right" was a very mediocre song, but suddenly it's testing and getting airplay and it's not so mediocre anymore, isn't it.

As Michael has recently explained, how a song did on the dubious-at-best charts way back then is irrelevant. What matters is how a song is liked today.

I believe many GREAT songs are being avoided, not just because they may or may not test below standards, it's because a station would not want to exceed it's rotation threshold to begin with, no matter the outcome of a song's rating in an auditorium. There's always limitations. 1500 songs are tested, 1200 make the grade, only 700 are aired.

That's just not true. There is no reason not to play all the good songs a station finds...

 

[davideduardo]

David, I know who samples the radio industry. I meant that radio sacrifices its multiple-hour listeners for the ones who only want to sample it during the day when they are on their way to get groceries and the dog groomed.

That's not so. Radio has been in an obsessive pursuit of what are called P1's, or folks who prefer your station to all others, for decades. So, often, research projects only include those heaviest of all listeners. Personally, I'm a proponent of sampling all components of the audience that listen even just a few hours a day, but I am in a minority.

Take for example, oh I don't know, me. I will have spent 14 hours in the office today, mainly sitting at my desk and listening to music while I slave away in front of a computer. Although I have a radio right by me that I can turn on at any time, I know it will insult me with the ridiculously small playlists.

Radio stations do pay lots of attention to longer-term users, but they also need to serve those listeners who listen a little less than they do to other stations. And that is because those hardcore listeners are not typical, and alone will not sustain a station.

We also know, going back three or four decades or so, that the average diary listener has several other stations they often use, and in the PPM that number is more like 5 or 6. So we find that expanded playlists weaken performance as weak lists contain more mediocre songs and people just don't come back very often.

This worked in the diary survey, works in the PPM, and works internationally in the BBM, IBOPE, INRA, and all the other surveys in the world.

Did I mention that I am in most demos that aren't directed to pimply-faced kids AND I have disposable income? But I guess I am just an outlier and radio (and their advertisers) don't really want or need my business. They certainly are not getting it.

Generally, radio ad campaigns are based on reach and frequency, with income a rather secondary media selection. They also are not directed at teens. Sales demos are 18-54 or some subset. And the first criterion for selection of stations for a campaign is large audience delivery and appropriate-to-size ad rates.

 

[krth101]

Something I haven't figured out with the new KRTH. We seem to be in agreement that the playlist has shrunk recently - and that the repetition is on par with*
*that of the jay Coffey era. What I haven't figured out is why certain songs that gained enough votes to rank fairly high on the *labor day interactive countdown - "summer of 69", "rappers delight" and "ring my bell" to name a few - *are not getting any consistent airplay since. It begs the questions - was this countdown truly voted on by the listeners after all. And if so, why does KRTH not listen to what their audience told them just 2 months ago?

 

[oldies76]

Even in the tightest rotation days, there were about 380 songs in regular rotation, and that period did not live all that long.

And how many of those were actual 1960's music, in the Jay Coffey era?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

David Gleason --- "Let's take a heavy listener... one who listens 5 hours a week. They listen for roughly 1/30th of all hours in the week. So if a song repeats 3 times a week, on average they will hear that song once every 10 weeks. Very simple math."

So today in 2013, thanks to all the other entertainment platforms that weren't around 25+ years ago and before, a "heavy" user listens less than an hour a day. Sad. Not my listening habits. But as Channel Flipper mentioned, live radio (as you know it) gets about 0% of my time now. And commercials are an infrequent assault on my ears (and eyes). I DVR about 90% of what I watch on TV/Cable and skip through the commercials. I record OTA out of market radio (mostly Adult Alt because LA has none other than KCSN) and burn it on CDs or I record it on my iPhone's TuneIn Pro app and in listening I am able to skip through the commercials as I do on TV, although many of the 'commercials' I skip through on OTA net streams are not the same as would be aired on the radio broadcast. In either case can you imagine if 90% of the listening/viewing population did this, the ads would not receive much attention. I know I am an anamoly; I patronize Farmers' Markets, Trader Joe's (not because of the commercials TJ's used to run), Mothers Market for all my produce and other hard goods like frozen pizza, cereal, etc. I go to Costco for bulk shopping. Sure I am not totally immune to marketing, I just minimize it.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Channel Flipper: You're not just alienating them, you are insulting them.

David: That explains why they keep coming back, day after day, doesn't it? Not.

Sigh... David he's talking about "HARD core users" who are now GONE GONE GONE. They HAVE been alienated and insulted by a barrage of repetition even casual users would notice.

Channel Flipper: So in the end, casual users is all radio has.
David:They are not casual listeners. Actually, they are typical listeners who have lives. They do all kinds of things that interrupt sustained listening... taking the trash out, taking the kids to the bus stop, walking the dog... and then they come back and listen a bit more and then they repeat the cycle, whether they listen 1 hour a week or 15 hours.

Ahhh David, please define what a "casual listener" is because Channel Flipper and I define him/her as doing all the activities you just mentioned. I don't think they'd be paying much attention even if hearing a radio station for up to 15 hours (note I did not use the word 'listening').

 

[oldies76]

Anyone at home or in the car listening to the radio, is a casual listener. And everyone that I have spoken too, mention that the songs they hear are played too often and that their own favorites are rarely played....and they are casual listeners. And some of these, do not even listen to the radio, everyday...maybe once or twice a week and still complain about the music.

I'm not sure where you get your data from, but human reality......is another story.

Computer data and personal human dialogue.....two very distinct forms of communication.

 

[davideduardo]

Sigh... David he's talking about "HARD core users" who are now GONE GONE GONE. They HAVE been alienated and insulted by a barrage of repetition even casual users would notice.

Heavy listeners are not gone.

First, with the advent of the PPM, we discovered that diary measurement did not show the frequent interruptions to radio listening and that actual average usage of radio was around 12 hours a week as opposed to the 19 to 22 hour range the diary shows and had shown for decades.

Heavy listeners are created by opportunity... they have more time and places where they can listen. Light listeners do not necessarily listen less because of any dislike of radio; they listen less because they have fewer opportunities to listen and just can't contribute as many hours a week as some others.

Despite the advent of PPM in 48 of the top 50 markets, we see lots of 100+ quarter hour a week listeners... both to radio and to our individual stations. And that, given all the alternatives available today, is a considerable positive for the ease and convenience of OTA radio.

Ahhh David, please define what a "casual listener" is because Channel Flipper and I define him/her as doing all the activities you just mentioned.

A "casual listener" is someone who listens to an hour or less of a station per week. About 50% of each station's cume is made up of casual listeners. The reasons for light listening may be things like forced listening while in a store, in someone's car, etc., or even the usage "just to hear the traffic report" before going to a less frequented part of town.

On average, about half of a station's listeners make up over 90% of their total listening time. The other half contributes 8% of the time, and really is useless to the station.

I don't think they'd be paying much attention even if hearing a radio station for up to 15 hours (note I did not use the word 'listening').

Since the average listener spends about 12 hours a week listening to the 5, 6 or 7 stations they regularly cume, 15 hours is on the high side.

Radio has to appeal to the regular listeners, Those include all kinds of heavy, medium and lighter usage but ignoring casual usage. That's why in testing music appeal, stations try to get a mix of usage levels so they can see any differences in song appeal and burnout that are usage dependent. All this is taken into account.

 

[davideduardo]

Anyone at home or in the car listening to the radio, is a casual listener.

While you are free to define things any way that makes you happy, your definitions are not those used as a standard in the industry. A "casual listener" is also often an "accidental listener" or someone who does not habitually listen to a station on a regular basis but who may end up giving cume credit and a few quarter hours due to circumstances other than personal preference and selection.

And everyone that I have spoken too, mention that the songs they hear are played too often and that their own favorites are rarely played....and they are casual listeners

It's strange, because I constantly see data from listeners who are brought to music tests based on liking a certain kind of music. Very few give negative scores to stations that play one of their favorite genres unless the station has serious library and rotation problems.

The two biggest reasons for "... the station that repeats songs too much" are:

1. Big libraries with lots of mediocre songs. "Repeats songs too much" really means "plays a lot of songs I don't care much for and not enough of my favorites".
2. Bad setup of horizontal and vertical rotations in Selector or MusicMaster or other software.

Usually, fixing rotation based rules and cutting the library size reduces those complaints and increases TSL.

And some of these, do not even listen to the radio, everyday...maybe once or twice a week and still complain about the music.

As has been said before, people tend to have friends who mirror many of their attitudes and reflect their taste. Just like marlins don't school with codfish, I would not expect your acquaintances to reflect a view much different than yours. But you are in the tiny group that radio can't hope to appeal to and should uniformly ignore as doing otherwise endangers the station, the jobs of the staff and the enjoyment of the station by the majority.

I'm not sure where you get your data from, but human reality......is another story.

"Research" is a quantification of human reality. I use in-depth data from PD Advantage and other Nielsen tools, as well as proprietary audience research as well as interpretative skills honed over about 50 years of ratings and research analysis.

Computer data and personal human dialogue.....two very distinct forms of communication.

Not really. Tabulated research is just a compilation of dialog with listeners and measurement of their very human behavior.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

A "casual listener" is someone who listens to an hour or less of a station per week. About 50% of each station's cume is made up of casual listeners. The reasons for light listening may be things like forced listening while in a store, in someone's car, etc., or even the usage "just to hear the traffic report" before going to a less frequented part of town.

Well I interpret what you said is the reasons for light listening may be things like forced hearing while in a store or forced hearing in someone's car. Who cares? No one in that store or car is really paying attention or cares about what's coming through the speakers. As to " 'just to hear the traffic report' before going to a less frequented part of town." you are dreaming, who does THAT??? Let's see KFI gives a traffic report about Silver Spur Road in Palos Verde Peninsula or Portola Parkway in Foothill Ranch. Yeh, right.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

1. Big libraries with lots of mediocre songs. "Repeats songs too much" really means "plays a lot of songs I don't care much for and not enough of my favorites".

"Research" is a quantification of human reality. I use in-depth data from PD Advantage and other Nielsen tools, as well as proprietary audience research as well as interpretative skills honed over about 50 years of ratings and research analysis.

....Tabulated research is just a compilation of dialog with listeners and measurement of their very human behavior.

David you are that engineer wearing that white coat with a clipboard in your hand dissecting radio programming with zero passion. You and others like you seem to be like the Radio Industry's Mr. Spock (he of the Vulcan ears with nothing but green blood flowing through his veins) whose God is Logic and no room for passion or emotion. Sure, thanks to people in the radio industry who think like this, we all have homogenized programming for the masses of sheeple out there devoid of any feelings except numbness. But what exactly has this attitude wrought? The clock is continuing to tick on the days left for 'radio listening' being on anyone's list of Things To Do. I would guess few youngsters today are looking to a career in radio so eventually those that are left today will eventually retire or die. So what will be left will be a jukebox with commercials competing with iPods and Pandora without the commercails.