The new krth

[davideduardo]

Well I interpret what you said is the reasons for light listening may be things like forced hearing while in a store or forced hearing in someone's car. Who cares? No one in that store or car is really paying attention or cares about what's coming through the speakers. As to " 'just to hear the traffic report' before going to a less frequented part of town." you are dreaming, who does THAT??? Let's see KFI gives a traffic report about Silver Spur Road in Palos Verde Peninsula or Portola Parkway in Foothill Ranch. Yeh, right.

Actually, we've seen tons of PPM data that shows things like a single quarter hour credit to KNX followed by
credit for the same quarter hour and the next one to a music station.

What happens is that a person checks traffic, listening for the required 5 minutes to get credit for the full quarter hour, and then switches station, with a minimum of 5 minutes to it... so both stations get full quarter hour credit for the same quarter hour.

(What I meant about "less frequented" part of town is folks... think of sales people, etc., who go to locations they are not as familiar with and frequent less... so they need a "heads up" as to any traffic issues).

Unless you understand the system of measurement, and thus the way stations can afford to broadcast, you are going to continue to suggest things that you don't think people do but for which we have ample and overwhelming empirical evidence of actually being done.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

So what's your opinion of programs/apps like "SigAlert"/SigAlert.com? Do you think usage of that will increase thus reducing someone's need to know about traffic by depending on traffic reports on the radio?? Its only functional anyway in a larger metro area, yes?

 

[davideduardo]

David you are that engineer wearing that white coat with a clipboard in your hand dissecting radio programming with zero passion.

No, I'm actually the person who kept an FM station #1 in a top 15 market for 22 years... the US record... by doing live "morning shows" 24/7. And the person who occasionally beat KFI with a 168-hour-a-week locally live talk format in LA.

But in each case, there was an underlying knowledge of what the listener wanted, based in sophisticated studies of their tastes.

You and others like you seem to be like the Radio Industry's Mr. Spock (he of the Vulcan ears with nothing but green blood flowing through his veins) whose God is Logic and no room for passion or emotion.

You base that on what? Having a feel, based on fact, but applied with art and emotion, for what listeners both want and don't want to hear, is not dispassionate or devoid of emotion. It's the combination of art and science.

Sure, thanks to people in the radio industry who think like this, we all have homogenized programming for the masses of sheeple out there devoid of any feelings except numbness.

This is the same tired old "why are all CHR stations the same across the country?" question, leading to the same old "cookie cutter" conclusion. The fact is that all formats sound similar across the US because the country has very uniform tastes within each strata of the population. That's why network television works, too. And why network radio worked for the 30 years prior to that...

But what exactly has this attitude wrought? The clock is continuing to tick on the days left for 'radio listening' being on anyone's list of Things To Do. I would guess few youngsters today are looking to a career in radio so eventually those that are left today will eventually retire or die.

You are equating "AM and FM" with "radio" and that is wrong. Radio, today, is any form of audio entertainment that is made available to consumers in real time or when delayed. AM, FM, streams, podcasts, satelite... all forms of radio. While there will be less and less listening to AM and FM, there is ample opportunity for broadcasters to serve audiences via new media... so the careers of tomorrow will be based on understandings of entertainment, social media, new technologies and such and not on knowledge of how to put steel in the sky.

 

[davideduardo]

So what's your opinion of programs/apps like "SigAlert"/SigAlert.com? Do you think usage of that will increase thus reducing someone's need to know about traffic by depending on traffic reports on the radio?? Its only functional anyway in a larger metro area, yes?

Many cars come with built in traffic mapping now, as well as others with connectivity with smartphones, so the need for traffic reports will decrease as older cars are replaced.

But one fact is important to realize: only a third of radio listening takes place in the car, and not everyone in the car needs traffic reports. So traffic is a feature that actually is only useful to a minority of listeners at any given time.

 

[oldies76]

The two biggest reasons for "... the station that repeats songs too much" are:

1. Big libraries with lots of mediocre songs. "Repeats songs too much" really means "plays a lot of songs I don't care much for and not enough of my favorites".

Disagree here. It's not the mediocre songs. It is the REGULAR, tested songs that people are having issues with. Yes, people do enjoy hearing them, but others mention that the REGULAR, tested songs are still played too much. They don't have to hear them 3 times a week, to get this impression. If they heard "Sweet Home Alabama" 5 times in two months, anywhere, on different stations, on one station, in a store or at a bar, then the impression is that they have heard it too many times, period. So when I have discussions with friends about radio music (and it has nothing to do with me), their chief complaint is that I'm hearing certain REGULAR songs too much or that my own personal favorites are rarely, if ever heard on their station of choice.

As for the impression that "mediocre" songs, as you call them, are the main cause for complaints about repetition, that's just not true, especially since they are never aired to begin with.

A whole day goes by on KRTH with regular, tested music and suddenly they play a "mediocre" song for the first time, "Could It Be Magic" by Donna Summer, and then complaints arise, because listeners get the impression that it's repeated too often, since it's rarely, if ever played on KRTH??? No way....Jose!

 

[oldies76]

You are equating "AM and FM" with "radio" and that is wrong.

We're talking terrestrial radio here, the only "radio" that exists among discussions here about KRTH. To most of us, we grew up with AM and FM radio and that's the demo that has the most issues with the lack of quality music on FM radio.

The internet is not a radio, it's is a stream of music from people's MP3 files, converted to online broadcasting. Listening to music, from the KRTH website, would be listening to a stream, from a radio station's broadcast.

Hearing music on AM or FM from a receiver at home or from you car's tuner......that's radio.

 

[davideduardo]

A whole day goes by on KRTH with regular, tested music and suddenly they play a "mediocre" song for the first time, "Could It Be Magic" by Donna Summer, and then complaints arise, because listeners get the impression that it's repeated too often, since it's rarely, if ever played on KRTH??? No way....Jose!

I'll repeat:

When a station gains the perception of "repeating songs too often" the reason for those complaints (other than pure mechanics) is excessive play of mediocre songs.

So when a listener tunes in, instead of hearing "favorites", they hear so-so songs... songs that don't have strong passion and strong positive feelings.

And if a listener hears that kind of song often, they feel that the songs are repeating. It's not any actual individual songs that are repeating... its just songs the listener does not particularly like that create an impression.

The fix for this is to cut the lower scoring songs out of the library. If the rest of the station is well executed, the ratings will go up.

However, over time we have seen stations that don't understand... just as you don't... that "repeats the songs" does not mean that the library is too small. So they increase the song count in the name of variety, and are a) mystified and b) fired when the ratings go down.

 

[davideduardo]

Hearing music on AM or FM from a receiver at home or from you car's tuner......that's radio.

You are hopelessly out of date. Radio companies are investing huge resources in new media because they understand that listeners consider "radio" to mean, increasingly everything but AM and FM.

P.S. Most cars in the last few years don't have "tuners". They have electronic dashboards with connectivity to a variety of sources.

 

[Thomps2525]

I just hooked my crystal radio receiver to the battery in my Ford Model T so I can hear WWVA's Homtown Jamboree program at night.

Anyway, David mentioned "excessive play of mediocre songs." What is the definition of "mediocre"? A song that peaked at #21-30? A song that more people dislike than like? There are many songs that I liked when I first heard them but can't stand to hear now. KRTH has played the same few hundred burned-out hits over and over and over and over and over for so many years, I swear I hear them more frequently now than I did when they were on the charts. My theory, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is that it is the big hits, not the mediocre songs, that get excessive play. It is a mystery to me why such a small number of listeners are sick of hearing these songs. I'm in the minority. I won't list all the songs that I'm sick of hearing and change the station every time they come on, but I'll give you some hints: One of them starts with Brown, one of them starts with Sweet Home, one of them starts with Na Na, one of them starts with Do Wah, one of them starts with You've Lost, one of them starts with.......

 

[oldies76]

I'll repeat:

When a station gains the perception of "repeating songs too often" the reason for those complaints (other than pure mechanics) is excessive play of mediocre songs.

So when a listener tunes in, instead of hearing "favorites", they hear so-so songs... songs that don't have strong passion and strong positive feelings.

And if a listener hears that kind of song often, they feel that the songs are repeating. It's not any actual individual songs that are repeating... its just songs the listener does not particularly like that create an impression.

The fix for this is to cut the lower scoring songs out of the library. If the rest of the station is well executed, the ratings will go up.

However, over time we have seen stations that don't understand... just as you don't... that "repeats the songs" does not mean that the library is too small. So they increase the song count in the name of variety, and are a) mystified and b) fired when the ratings go down.

Oh, I understand alright....you bet I do. (no need to mention that I don't on a public forum). I understand everything you have said since 2008. I just do not agree on some of the issues as do other posters on other issues you have rebutted. Jeez!

 

[davideduardo]

I just hooked my crystal radio receiver to the battery in my Ford Model T so I can hear WWVA's Homtown Jamboree program at night.

Here are some pictures of WWVA in their 20th anniversary booklet: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Station-Albums/WWVA-Brochure-1926-1946.pdf

Anyway, David mentioned "excessive play of mediocre songs." What is the definition of "mediocre"?

A song that, today, gets an overall test score of around neutral, neither very good nor very bad. It's the next tier after the ones that actually get played.

A song that peaked at #21-30?

Chart positions, for many reasons, are irrelevant.

It's about how much people want to hear each song on the radio today.

 

[Thomps2525]

In his autobiography, 1958-63 KFWB program director Chuck Blore details how he and the DJs would listen to all the new records each week. If the majority liked a song, it would be added to the playlist. Is there any reason such a process wouldn't work for an oldies station in 2013? If the DJs are sick of a song, drop it. If the DJs like a song that isn't on the playlist, add it.

"Test scores"---"neutral rating"---"next tier"---Bah, humbug!

 

[davideduardo]

In his autobiography, 1958-63 KFWB program director Chuck Blore details how he and the DJs would listen to all the new records each week. If the majority liked a song, it would be added to the playlist. Is there any reason such a process wouldn't work for an oldies station in 2013? If the DJs are sick of a song, drop it. If the DJs like a song that isn't on the playlist, add it.

Adding new songs has not changed much in the last 50 years. Someone at the station has to listen to new music and decide if it belongs on a station that plays currents.

Interestingly, 1958 was the beginning of The Gavin Report, the first real radio airplay based "tipsheet" where stations would report their adds, breakers, climbers and drops. This allowed PDs to look at what their peers in other markets were doing. Sometimes we'd see some adds on a song we had passed over, and take another listen.

Today, the adds and drops and changes in playlists can be seen instantly on BDS and MediaMonitors and other services. And, once we add a song, we can see how every play affects listening with MScores.

But the initial add is all based on gut feel and knowledge of the station's audience.

With all other songs, the ones listeners already know, it is always better to ask the public and not to guess.

 

[michael hagerty]

Guys, enjoy. I'm done. Life is too short to spend trying to explain to grown men why it's a bad idea to stick their fingers into light sockets.

 

[Thomps2525]

I doubt that any of the grown men here would stick a finger into a light socket but I do know that a lot of us grown men would love to have an oldies station that plays all the songs we grew up with. Michael, you and David can cite hundreds of music tests and call-out research and BDS data but that doesn't matter much to us---we are music fans, not radio station owners. Both of you are very knowledgeable about the radio industry and when you discuss KRTH you each tend to speak as a businessman and not as a listener. You can give us lots of reasons why radio shouldn't play all the thousands of ignored songs that we'd like to hear.....but we'll still wish we could hear them. By the way, the number of different songs played on KRTH each week has just dropped by 200. That means even more repetition of overplayed burned-out hits than before. Maybe you two businessmen can explain to us listeners and fans how that's an improvement.

 

[oldies76]

By the way, the number of different songs played on KRTH each week has just dropped by 200. That means even more repetition of overplayed burned-out hits than before. Maybe you two businessmen can explain to us listeners and fans how that's an improvement.

Well, that's not good. If Rick Thomas can try to get by, what two former PD's before 2005 did to KRTH, then all I can say, is good luck. I clearly remember some of those pre-2005 L.A. Times articles about K-Earth 101. If that's where the station might be headed.....then I'll say again.....GOOD LUCK.

Steve, KRTH will never return to it's glory days, never. As much as we would like it to, reality says, it won't. So in the meantime, let's just act like clueless listeners and tune in a few times a week and maybe realize (according to Michael & David) that a song really repeats once in every 12 weeks or so (I don't remember the actual number, but who cares...) and then we'll be just like the others in the world.....clueless about radio. Oh, and btw, be sure to call 1-800-232-KRTH some night and request your favorite 1967 song, you know, the one about a girl and her brown eyes and see what they tell you....

In the meantime, before I tune in someday, I'll just turn on my MP3 player and wait for the other "lost" song about a girl and her brown eyes, becoming blue!
ala....1977.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

You forgot about Brown Eyed Woman by Bill Medley. But then so have 99.999% of US Classic Hits radio stations heh heh.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, that's not good. If Rick Thomas can try to get by, what two former PD's before 2005 did to KRTH, then all I can say, is good luck. I clearly remember some of those pre-2005 L.A. Times articles about K-Earth 101. If that's where the station might be headed.....then I'll say again.....GOOD LUCK.

It's working, and it is not "luck" but Rick's skillful adaptation of KRTH's heritage to today's Los Angeles media market. The last 6 weeklies show higher average numbers than any time in the last year in 25-54.

 

[Thomps2525]

That's because after Mark & Brian left KLOS, their disgruntled fans started listening to KRTH and discovered that KRTH now sounds a lot like KLOS: Eagles, Kansas, Bob Seger, Paul McCartney, Peter Frampton, Elton John, Journey, Foreigner, Steely Dan, Lynyrd Skynyrd, J. Geils Band, Doobie Brothers, et al.

The big difference is that KLOS doesn't play Grease and Brown Eyed Girl 20 times a week.

 

[Thomps2525]

"Steve, you will never get it. KRTH can no longer be successful by playing 1950s-60s. Their target audience grew up with 1970s-80s-90s music and that's what they want to hear on KRTH. The older songs appeal to an older audience which is outside KRTH's target. And your constant complaining about Brown Eyed Girl is really getting tiresome."

Since Michael is no longer posting on this thread, I took the liberty of answering myself for him. (All in fun, Michael! You are a great debater!)