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The Omnia.One: I was wrong about it


You missed the point...

Vorsis AP-2000 could not even beat the Omnia.One. The Vorsis top of the line box got beat by the other guy's low cost box. Not a good way to get repositioned I might add.
[/quote]


This isn't what I'm seeing in the real world (and NAB is not the real world - if you think it is, you've been living under a rock somewhere!). A trade show floor is the last place on earth I would make *any* judgments about *any* processor A versus processor B comparison - and especially when such a comparison is taking place in one of the competitor's booths. You think they would do this if the outcome could be anything other than what they need it to be? (and NO, I do NOT trust what any competitor says about how the other guy's box was set up for the demo!!!)

I used to install almost exclusively Orban until about 6 years ago (it was about 85% Orban, 20% Omnia). Then the mix slowly became more like 35% Orban, 65% Omnia. Over the past two years only about 20% of my customers are asking for Orban and now the mix is more like about 20% Orban, 40% Omnia and 40% Vorsis.

I'm not saying (and have never said) that Vorsis is the new king of the hill. What I *am* saying is that Wheatstone has created a very nice sounding and quite competitive set of processor products and that my customers have been very happy with whatever brand I've installed.
 
OKCRadioGuy said:
Who would have thought several years ago that a decent processor could be bought for 3k?
The DSP-X development team, perhaps? ;)
 
... and that my customers have been very happy with whatever brand I've installed.

Which is the first problem - customers taking whatever processor the dealer suggests to them, or a friend/colleague recommended, never questioning the competence of said friend/dealer, the difference in subjective taste in processing and the rest of the equipment in chain nor personal interests (in case of dealers, who make direct money selling products). Of course the customers are happy. Most of them don't know better, don't have time or don't care. And if the dealer is a good sales guy, the uncritical buyer is easily convinced he's got the best box. At least for a while...

The corollary of this is that the brand that is perceived to be good is the one that has the most dealers who are good at selling. It happens all too often that the better box is not sold over the other one, because the other dealer is stronger, has better connections in given market with major stations, is more active or is simply a better sales guy. And if that dealer has sold processor A to the station X and station Y and station Z and station Y as well, then processor A must be a good, right? No. But that's what happens. In not too short, the market is flooded with processor A, everybody talks about processor A and processor A is perceived to be the best. In other market, the situation could be totally opposite.

The same thing happens on various boards and mailing lists... Depending on how many users who use certain brand and how many of them report to the forum, that brand is perceived to be better. If one poster says brand A is good, but six or seven other posters says brand B is good, that single poster will not be heard. And it has nothing to do how good the processors are. On the other forum, the odds may be in favour of the other brand. Very rarely the number of users of different processors are balanced in a way to actually represent the real-life market situation. Any conclusion drawn from such discussions would not hold water in any serious statistical analysis. The sample size is way too small, the way of gathering data inappropriate and the results unreliable and invalid. However, people seem to accept them as facts. Why?

Additionaly, some posters may be louder, more argumentative and have more time on their hands to post on the forum than the others who give up. Of posters who post, a number of them could be the actual manufacturers and designers openly or subtly endorsing their own products. There could be anonymous people with who knows what interests, agendas and morals. There could be some "expert" or at least experienced people, however with their own subjective preferences and experience from their specific markets. There could be conformists. There could be people who just want to get some attention, etc. Very few readers put competence question when they read something somebody writes. Very few are sceptic of whatever is written and a lot seem to just accept what someone writes without any validation what so ever.


Regards,
Goran Tomas
 
I'm a bit skeptic about what you wrote Goran ;) :D

No seriously. All very true and good points. But nothing new right? Marketing has been around for a while in many forms. I'm sure manufacturers paid people in the past to review their products and write about it, and not in a bad way. Other pick up on that and that's how the snowball effect starts. Shame on the manufacturers or the ignorant people?
 
The F Mister said:
I'm a bit skeptic about what you wrote Goran ;) :D

No seriously. All very true and good points. But nothing new right? Marketing has been around for a while in many forms. I'm sure manufacturers paid people in the past to review their products and write about it, and not in a bad way. Other pick up on that and that's how the snowball effect starts. Shame on the manufacturers or the ignorant people?

I think Goran is right on almost every point. The only place that I disagree with him is that most of the time I install what my customers ask for. If they ask me for a recommendation then of course I share my own personal experiences with what I've installed and perhaps even some of my client's observations if that seems appropriate. But they typically make up their own mind about which product to buy. The curious thing I've noticed is that price is rarely the driving factor. That doesn't mean that they don't care what something costs, just that more often than not they don't use that as the primary driving force for making a decision.

Oh, about that 85%/20%. It was 'higher math'! ;D
 
Goran Tomas said:
Which is the first problem - customers taking whatever processor the dealer suggests to them, or a friend/colleague recommended, never questioning the competence of said friend/dealer, the difference in subjective taste in processing and the rest of the equipment in chain nor personal interests (in case of dealers, who make direct money selling products). Of course the customers are happy. Most of them don't know better, don't have time or don't care. And if the dealer is a good sales guy, the uncritical buyer is easily convinced he's got the best box. At least for a while...

The corollary of this is that the brand that is perceived to be good is the one that has the most dealers who are good at selling. It happens all too often that the better box is not sold over the other one, because the other dealer is stronger, has better connections in given market with major stations, is more active or is simply a better sales guy. And if that dealer has sold processor A to the station X and station Y and station Z and station Y as well, then processor A must be a good, right? No. But that's what happens. In not too short, the market is flooded with processor A, everybody talks about processor A and processor A is perceived to be the best. In other market, the situation could be totally opposite.

The same thing happens on various boards and mailing lists... Depending on how many users who use certain brand and how many of them report to the forum, that brand is perceived to be better. If one poster says brand A is good, but six or seven other posters says brand B is good, that single poster will not be heard. And it has nothing to do how good the processors are. On the other forum, the odds may be in favour of the other brand. Very rarely the number of users of different processors are balanced in a way to actually represent the real-life market situation. Any conclusion drawn from such discussions would not hold water in any serious statistical analysis. The sample size is way too small, the way of gathering data inappropriate and the results unreliable and invalid. However, people seem to accept them as facts. Why?

Additionaly, some posters may be louder, more argumentative and have more time on their hands to post on the forum than the others who give up. Of posters who post, a number of them could be the actual manufacturers and designers openly or subtly endorsing their own products. There could be anonymous people with who knows what interests, agendas and morals. There could be some "expert" or at least experienced people, however with their own subjective preferences and experience from their specific markets. There could be conformists. There could be people who just want to get some attention, etc. Very few readers put competence question when they read something somebody writes. Very few are sceptic of whatever is written and a lot seem to just accept what someone writes without any validation what so ever.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

Goran,

I don't agree with your first pointy regarding products that become popular because a dealer or marketer is stronger. I can personally tell you how many dealers took Omnia.fm very cautiously back in 1997. Why...because they were already entrenched with the market leader, at that time, and were afraid to go against the grain.

So, how did we pull that off, to become the market leader? It wasn't from dealers or ads. It was by having the better product and demonstrating that to the end users. I...personally...circled the globe numerous timers, sat with hundreds of engineers, PD's, station maanagers, and participated in more 'official' processor shootouts to remember. The results of all that was how we proved our product's benefit...we earned it!!

Now, regarding your comments about posting on boards and who says what on them...you make good comments about those, and I've quietly questions the motives of various posters. But, that's the marketplace in today's world, and if you choose to play in the game, then those are the rules.

-Frank Foti
 
Hi!

With me working with Frank here these days, I can see (and is experiencing) what he talks about regarding Goran's post #1.

Some people assume it is all marketing, and I've heard that bounce back to me more than several times from folks outside the company.
Point is, all the marketing in the world won't help you if you have a product that sucks. It actually works against you, and makes the product a laughing stock. Now, if the product is strong, then a good marketing approach really helps!

I was around during the birthing days of Omnia. I can tell ya, the audience was pretty rough. Not everyone was a fan of the Unity 2000, and they applied those experiences directly to Omnia. Add to that the fact that "brand-X" was top of the food chain. It took a lot to even get people to give us the time of day!

Frank did a LOT of leg work and travel to turn folks around to the fact that we had something special here.

Fast forward to today, and all of that work is lost to the static of todays world except for those who lived it. Assumptions have since
filled the void.

-C
 
Mr. Gould said...

"Point is, all the marketing in the world won't help you if you have a product that sucks"

Then explain - Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and Budweiser. All CLEARLY not the best at what they do.

Love the Omnia ONE - but most commercial successes ARE all about marketing. ;)
 
FFoti1 said:
Goran Tomas said:
Which is the first problem - customers taking whatever processor the dealer suggests to them, or a friend/colleague recommended, never questioning the competence of said friend/dealer, the difference in subjective taste in processing and the rest of the equipment in chain nor personal interests (in case of dealers, who make direct money selling products). Of course the customers are happy. Most of them don't know better, don't have time or don't care. And if the dealer is a good sales guy, the uncritical buyer is easily convinced he's got the best box. At least for a while...

The corollary of this is that the brand that is perceived to be good is the one that has the most dealers who are good at selling. It happens all too often that the better box is not sold over the other one, because the other dealer is stronger, has better connections in given market with major stations, is more active or is simply a better sales guy. And if that dealer has sold processor A to the station X and station Y and station Z and station Y as well, then processor A must be a good, right? No. But that's what happens. In not too short, the market is flooded with processor A, everybody talks about processor A and processor A is perceived to be the best. In other market, the situation could be totally opposite.

The same thing happens on various boards and mailing lists... Depending on how many users who use certain brand and how many of them report to the forum, that brand is perceived to be better. If one poster says brand A is good, but six or seven other posters says brand B is good, that single poster will not be heard. And it has nothing to do how good the processors are. On the other forum, the odds may be in favour of the other brand. Very rarely the number of users of different processors are balanced in a way to actually represent the real-life market situation. Any conclusion drawn from such discussions would not hold water in any serious statistical analysis. The sample size is way too small, the way of gathering data inappropriate and the results unreliable and invalid. However, people seem to accept them as facts. Why?

Additionaly, some posters may be louder, more argumentative and have more time on their hands to post on the forum than the others who give up. Of posters who post, a number of them could be the actual manufacturers and designers openly or subtly endorsing their own products. There could be anonymous people with who knows what interests, agendas and morals. There could be some "expert" or at least experienced people, however with their own subjective preferences and experience from their specific markets. There could be conformists. There could be people who just want to get some attention, etc. Very few readers put competence question when they read something somebody writes. Very few are sceptic of whatever is written and a lot seem to just accept what someone writes without any validation what so ever.


Regards,
Goran Tomas


So, how did we pull that off, to become the market leader? It wasn't from dealers or ads. It was by having the better product and demonstrating that to the end users. I...personally...circled the globe numerous timers, sat with hundreds of engineers, PD's, station maanagers, and participated in more 'official' processor shootouts to remember. The results of all that was how we proved our product's benefit...we earned it!!

-Frank Foti

What Frank is saying is very true, and I'll try to share an example without an endorsement for any current product. One of my stations was a Unity user in the early to mid 90's. Later, we were a very early (1st run) Omnia.FM station back in 1997. Sure, Omnia had some pretty ads promoting their new box. Regardless of whether or not you liked the sonic signature of the Omnia.FM wasn't the key issue. More or less a paradigm shift occurred with digital processing when the original Omnia arrived. The breaking glass, digital aliasing was gone with Omnia. The box sounded warm and analog. Customers received personal treatment with direct communication with Frank or other company reps. Heck, when I had some issues with the Omnia Frank himself travelled to our site for assistance, twice! Word spread fast from engineer to engineer about that type of support and product backing. They took some heat early on about sample rates and such, even from the big H company. What ultimately became apparent was Omnia was several years ahead of what anyone else was doing in DSP. I personally believe the original Omnia made the company what it is today. The playing field is pretty equal today as it relates to DSP, but I can't say the same about customer service. Omnia still has great tech support, and it's usually the same guy that you called for help fifteen years ago with the Unity 2000.
 
fm-engineer said:
The playing field is pretty equal today as it relates to DSP, but I can't say the same about customer service. Omnia still has great tech support, and it's usually the same guy that you called for help fifteen years ago with the Unity 2000.

Totally agree on that. These guys know the products like they know their own children. That definitely adds some incentive.
 
surfdude said:
Mr. Gould said...

"Point is, all the marketing in the world won't help you if you have a product that sucks"

Then explain - Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and Budweiser. All CLEARLY not the best at what they do.

Love the Omnia ONE - but most commercial successes ARE all about marketing. ;)

Matter of opinion. If they were not the best at what they do in some way, then there would be no reason they were all one of the top money making companies during this recession. You and I may not frequent them, but enough do to make them billions of dollars a year.

They are clearly giving a large portion of the population what they want. And that's being the best at what they do.

Marketing can tell the story and build more momentum if you've already have a success story to shout about. but if the majority of users think you suck, and hate your products.....

-C
 
whitfm said:
fm-engineer said:
The playing field is pretty equal today as it relates to DSP, but I can't say the same about customer service. Omnia still has great tech support, and it's usually the same guy that you called for help fifteen years ago with the Unity 2000.

Totally agree on that. These guys know the products like they know their own children. That definitely adds some incentive.

One more thing that marketing alone can't buy you! Get the above wrong, and marketing won't help you become a world-class leader in anything! Especially in a marketplace as small as broadcasting!

-C
 
Well, lessee... Wal-Mart: World's biggest retailer in terms of sales.
Budweiser - More barrels sold than any other brewery in the world.
ArchBurger: More hamburgers sold than anyone else in the world.

That sort of fits my definition of 'best at what they do'. Could you share yours?

That I poersonally don't shop at WalMart, eat Archburgers, or drink Bud by preference doesn't mean they aren't the top of their respective venues, it mwerely means my tastes differ rom the teeming millions in those areas.
 
surfdude said:
Mr. Gould said...

"Point is, all the marketing in the world won't help you if you have a product that sucks"

Then explain - Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and Budweiser. All CLEARLY not the best at what they do.

Love the Omnia ONE - but most commercial successes ARE all about marketing. ;)

Omnia.One thanks you for your appreciation!! :)

I won't disagree about the power of marketing. Look at the political scene today. It's not whom campaigns the best, it's whom makets their message the best, that creates the winner!!

To the topic at hand here, I'll bet your choice of our product was based on performance, or feedback from another who approved of the product's performance. Unless you've got the goods - in the first place - it won't sell. OK, sure, there are some one hit wonders, but sustaining business performance requires product(s) that truly perform over time.

One point I left out in the prior post about Omnia.fm's introduction: All the domestic deaslers were skeptical at first, and for the reasons mentioned prior. BUT, once word got out and around that Omnia.fm was THE player, guess whom were calling our office BEGGING for units to sell? Yup, those same EXACT dealers who were skeptical. I might add in most cases it was the same guy - at the dealer who was against us in the first place - who placed the call!!

THAT, my friends, didn't happen because of marketing, trade press ads, press releases, etc. It occurred because the product delivered...plain, pure, and simple! For those who might like a good story about this, contact me offline and I'll share a doozy!!

Our business is akin to a cottage industry. Word travels fast, and if you can't deliver with a proven product, you won't stay around long. The broadcast marketplace is not as feable as the general consumer who get pulled in by the marketing of those large corporations mentioned. My comment, in no way, takes nothing away from our industry, but we're not dealing in hundreds of thousands or millions of end-users. While many of the concepts may appear to be the same, I don't think they are.

-Frank Foti
 
It certainly is a good thing that marketing is as powerful as it is, without it this conversation would be a very short one, and we wouldn't have a job. I don't know if I would say the Omnia.fm sounded analog. I believe that came with the new generation Omnias like 6 3fmt etc. I don't have anything against them, we still use 2.fms and they are good processors. But I think they sound synthetic like the 8200V3. The natural open analog sound for me came with the Omnia 6
 
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