The Orphaned Translators Thread

[ZantennaG1]

It amazes me that so many of them exists, but I was inspired by all the recent posts on here from Texas, and now it has happened to one of my local stations in Wyoming.

For context: We're talking about FM translators that operate without a parent station on the air. For example, @dxsphere and I noticed last year that K246CI was operating without KOLT-HD2 functioning. They have since corrected this mistake, but it's technically against FCC rules.

To kick things off: K234AH is on the air 24/7 (they recently had to fix their audio), but the main station KVAM only seems to be on at certain times now, and it's only using the night power of 1000 watts. It's extremely weird, and I can't think of a historical precedent for an X-band AM explicitly being off during daylight hours whilst coming back to life at night. I suspect an antenna issue with the day pattern could be causing this.

Feel free to post your own experiences of a translator without a parent.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I suspect that with hundreds more translators of AM stations, the AM stations are not using full power or properly operating DAs.

 

[davideduardo]

... I can't think of a historical precedent for an X-band AM explicitly being off during daylight hours whilst coming back to life at night. I suspect an antenna issue with the day pattern could be causing this.

Except for a pair of coastal exceptions, X-banders are all non-directional.

If they have a daytime problem, it may be due to 1) antenna / tower work in the daytime or 2) separate day and night transmitters where one does not work (but then they should run 1 kw 24/7)

 

[davideduardo]

I suspect that with hundreds more translators of AM stations, the AM stations are not using full power or properly operating DAs.

As well as those that have reduced night power to the equivalent of the deepest null and run as little as 50 or 60 watts at night. The idea is to sustain the FM.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

When PSSAs were originally authorized, the power was calculated for 40 percent of the cochannel stations 50% RSS nighttime interference free contour. When there was a facility change, it went down to 25% RSS. The FCC tried to get them all to reduce at one point to the 25 percent, and it caused a major outcry. One example is WCCW 1310, which recently moved back to its original tower on STA. They were originally to be allowed 31 watts PSSA, but the engineer decided it was useless, and they didn't license it. Now, it would only be allowed to be licensed at about 12 watts Night Class D nondirectional. The limiting station is WIBA Madison. They need to find a translator. There are a lot of stations now that would be limited to that level. WCCW could probably measure radials and run 50000 watts nondirectional Days from that sand hill on Barney Rd. All their other applications showed it close to that possibility. They had a 50000 watt CP with a DA from the other site. No one would do it now though.

 

[ZantennaG1]

I suspect that with hundreds more translators of AM stations, the AM stations are not using full power or properly operating DAs.

Except for a pair of coastal exceptions, X-banders are all non-directional.

If they have a daytime problem, it may be due to 1) antenna / tower work in the daytime or 2) separate day and night transmitters where one does not work (but then they should run 1 kw 24/7)

I should have specified that the station in question only uses one tower (thus non-directional), but the day power is ten-fold of the night power under normal operating conditons. Right now though, there is no day power at all, just nighttime.

These are all plausible explanations to me, and I thank you for the insight. This would be the same station that Paul/SRG noticed problems with during his time in Laramie, and so this is probably just another hole in that bucket.

The idea is to sustain the FM.

I am worried that the owners probably will take this idea and run with it, and they have all reason to go that route. If the transmitter is in as bad shape as everyone on here says, there is probably even less incentive to program to the AM side, or even attempt to fix it.

As I have mentioned before, the FM translator has had sound problems in the past, so I imagine that while they tried to fix that problem, they messed up the AM, and as discussed already, the FM is probably more important to the owner than the AM, so it will be interesting to see how long this drags on. I would love to see the transmitter fixed, but I absolutely understand and even support the need to lean on the FM as well as online offerings.

The current owner is non-commercial and is from Montana, and they probably (speculation here) wanted a fast way into the Cheyenne market, and Vic Michael's technique of buying and "flipping" stations offered them an easy solution, and they took him up on his offer. Now that they're on a Cheyenne station, I would bet on them filing in the next NCE opening, and either someone will pick up 1630/94.7, or it goes dark. But, for now, hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come

 

[RadioGuy1864]

FM translators in Texas are notorious for operating "parent free" specifically many ethnic and "religious" stations.

 

[101tm]

W214CE 90.7 in Greenville SC’s parent station is KAWZ in Twin Falls, ID.

I’ve never understood how this is legal.

There are hundreds of translators across the country for KAWZ.

 

[ZantennaG1]

W214CE 90.7 in Greenville SC’s parent station is KAWZ in Twin Falls, ID.

I’ve never understood how this is legal.

There are hundreds of translators across the country for KAWZ.

Apparently if you are a religious station, you get some amazing perks! Yeah, I don't really get it either, especially because it discourages local radio.

 

[gr8oldies]

When PSSAs were originally authorized, the power was calculated for 40 percent of the cochannel stations 50% RSS nighttime interference free contour. When there was a facility change, it went down to 25% RSS. The FCC tried to get them all to reduce at one point to the 25 percent, and it caused a major outcry. One example is WCCW 1310, which recently moved back to its original tower on STA. They were originally to be allowed 31 watts PSSA, but the engineer decided it was useless, and they didn't license it. Now, it would only be allowed to be licensed at about 12 watts Night Class D nondirectional. The limiting station is WIBA Madison. They need to find a translator. There are a lot of stations now that would be limited to that level. WCCW could probably measure radials and run 50000 watts nondirectional Days from that sand hill on Barney Rd. All their other applications showed it close to that possibility. They had a 50000 watt CP with a DA from the other site. No one would do it now though.

Who else is in favor of eliminating the flea power once the translator is on the air? Not the craziest idea I've seen lately

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Who else is in favor of eliminating the flea power once the translator is on the air? Not the craziest idea I've seen lately

There are quite a few PSSA Class Ds that are worthwhile. A lot are in the 200 watt nondirectional range at Night, or more than 100 watts with a directional antenna, with a center city or city edge edge transmitter location where the pattern serves the city well. 12 watts, usually not, unless it's center city in a city of one square mile or so with few people outside the city. Frequency, area conductivity, and NIF of the Night facility are other factors. But perhaps they should have that option at Night if they don't have a useful Night service area.

 

[CentralFL]

I suspect that with hundreds more translators of AM stations, the AM stations are not using full power or properly operating DAs.

WINE 940 in Brookfield, CT is currently simulcasting WRKI. They are clearly running their nighttime power of 4 watts during both day and night.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Who else is in favor of eliminating the flea power once the translator is on the air? Not the craziest idea I've seen lately

I think for the AM side of the equation to be any amount of useful, it needs to cover a wider area than it's FM counterpart (thus more wattage), or you might as well keep the FM and drop the AM.

 

[gr8oldies]

At a 1600 I worked at, we had to be number one in the mall parking lot with 34 watts.

 

[davideduardo]

W214CE 90.7 in Greenville SC’s parent station is KAWZ in Twin Falls, ID.

I’ve never understood how this is legal.

There are hundreds of translators across the country for KAWZ.

Non-commercial translators have different rules on origination. They do not have to be within the coverage area of an associated local station. They may, legally, rebroadcast a sister station from anywhere else.

I am not an expert in non-commercial stations, so perhaps one of our better informed posters can expand on this. However, what some of the faith-based groups do as well as what many educational stations run by universities as well as NPR affiliates have done to serve smaller towns by using translators as network rebroadcast stations is very legal.

 

[fybush]

The "satellator" rules apply only to translators operating in the reserved (88-92) band. It was originally designed to allow statewide public radio networks in places like Utah to provide service to remote areas beyond the reach of their full-power signals.

All non-fill-in translators, whether in the reserved band or 92-108, are very limited in power. They don't get the same 250 watts/unlimited height that fill-in (within the primary station's 60 dBu contour) translators enjoy.

 

[ZantennaG1]

At a 1600 I worked at, we had to be number one in the mall parking lot with 34 watts.

I have to imagine that is is what it's like with college stations!

As an aside: With the right equipment and frequency, a small amount of wattage on AM can overcome a larger amount of wattage on FM. However, today's RFI noise impacts this. Still, I have a 50,000 watt FM that breaks up right around Wellington, CO, whilst my 8,500 watt AM station stays rock solid down into Denver, and even the 700 watt one in my town makes it to Fort Collins.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The "satellator" rules apply only to translators operating in the reserved (88-92) band. It was originally designed to allow statewide public radio networks in places like Utah to provide service to remote areas beyond the reach of their full-power signals.

All non-fill-in translators, whether in the reserved band or 92-108, are very limited in power. They don't get the same 250 watts/unlimited height that fill-in (within the primary station's 60 dBu contour) translators enjoy.

I have a couple of engineer/consultant friends who are involved in upgrading translators beyond the 10 watt limit outside the 60 dBu contour of the primary facility. There are a few things they've done to have 250 watts, or increase beyond 10 watts.

1) Increase the facilities of the main station so it encompasses a more powerful translator facility.

2) Go DA so the 60 dBu translator contour fits inside the 60 dBu of the main facility.

3) Change the TL of the main facility or translator so it fits inside the 60 dBu.

4) Acquire an AM station, and make it a translator for the AM station, allowing it to extend the 60 dBu to the 25 mile radius, or 2 mV/m contour, whichever is greater. Low dial position AM stations, sometimes better if directional, are ideal for maximizing coverage to the 2 mV/m contour.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Non-commercial translators have different rules on origination. They do not have to be within the coverage area of an associated local station. They may, legally, rebroadcast a sister station from anywhere else.

I am not an expert in non-commercial stations, so perhaps one of our better informed posters can expand on this. However, what some of the faith-based groups do as well as what many educational stations run by universities as well as NPR affiliates have done to serve smaller towns by using translators as network rebroadcast stations is very legal.

I didn't mean to sound so cynical of the religious stations, and I absolutely stand with the NPR stations, however it is still possible for a mega-corp like EMF to do reach audiences with their translators than a small church is allowed to do.

The "satellator" rules apply only to translators operating in the reserved (88-92) band. It was originally designed to allow statewide public radio networks in places like Utah to provide service to remote areas beyond the reach of their full-power signals.

All non-fill-in translators, whether in the reserved band or 92-108, are very limited in power. They don't get the same 250 watts/unlimited height that fill-in (within the primary station's 60 dBu contour) translators enjoy.

Thank you for clearing things up!

 

[ZantennaG1]

I have a couple of engineer/consultant friends who are involved in upgrading translators beyond the 10 watt limit outside the 60 dBu contour of the primary facility. There are a few things they've done to have 250 watts, or increase beyond 10 watts.

1) Increase the facilities of the main station so it encompasses a more powerful translator facility.

2) Go DA so the 60 dBu translator contour fits inside the 60 dBu of the main facility.

3) Change the TL of the main facility or translator so it fits inside the 60 dBu.

4) Acquire an AM station, and make it translator for the AM station, allowing it to extend the 60 dBu to the 25 mile radius, or 2 mV/m contour, whichever is greater. Low dial position AM stations, sometimes better if directional, are ideal for maximizing coverage to the 2 mV/m contour.

These are all good strategies.
I have to wonder if #4 is the case of 1630 KVAM at the moment.