The Overmyer Network/United Network

[KingDaevid]

...in the "what if" thread below about a fantasized Metromedia Network in 1965, brief mention was made about one of 1967's most notorious flops, the Overmyer Network. It existed for only 30 days, almost identically to Ed Wynn's Amalgamated radio network of the mid-'30s, and collapsed for the same reasons -- the money just wasn't there to operate the thing. Unlike Amalgamated, however, the network somehow found time to change its name to The United Network before the plug was finally pulled...

...its only offering was "The Las Vegas Show," a talk/variety combination (not unlike the 1954-57 Steve Allen/Ernie Kovacs version of "Tonight") hosted by Bill Dana (the nightclub comic whose character Jose Jimenez was a big hit on record albums around this time), and intended as late-night competition against Johnny Carson on NBC and Joey Bishop on ABC. I've Googled for this show and can only come up with a little information on affiliate stations, including from a thread on this same site from just over a year ago. I wonder if perhaps anyone here now can supply any additional information about Overmyer/United's affiliate list? What I've dug up so far is:

WPHL/17 Philadelphia (Overmyer owned-and-operated, remarkably enough)
WGN/9 Chicago (Independent)
WVTV/18 Milwaukee (Independent; ran Bishop's ABC and Merv Griffin's CBS late night shows in the years immediately after this)
WNWO/24 Toledo (Independent)
KPHO/5 Phoenix (Independent; ran the show after Carson's and Bishop's had ended each night)
WTAR/3 Norfolk (CBS; ran Bishop's ABC show after United folded)
WTVR/6 Richmond (CBS)

...there's also mention on a web site of an Indianapolis affiliate that not only ran "The Las Vegas Show" after Carson and Bishop had ended each night, but tape-delayed each program for over 48 hours after the network fed it! Perhaps WTTV/4?...

...also, considering that WGN and WVTV ran it, did the other stations then owned by Tribune (WPIX/11 New York and KWGN/2 Denver; any others?) and Gaylord (WKY/4 Oklahoma City, WTVT/13 Tampa, KTVT/11 Fort Worth; any others?) run it too?...<P ID="signature">______________
King Daevid MacKenzie
WLSU Wisconsin Public Radio, La Crosse
heard weekly on http://whiterosesociety.org
"Kill Ugly Radio." FRANK ZAPPA</P>

 

[KMRichards]

> I wonder if perhaps anyone here now can supply any
> additional information about Overmyer/United's affiliate
> list?

As was mentioned on the California board several months ago, KLOC/19 Modesto, Calif. also carried the Bill Dana program for the entire month it was on the air. I talked with then-owner Chester Smith at length and he definitely remembers being an affiliate; he had hoped that United would be able to expand and lower his dependence on syndicated programming (as it turned out, the stations in the nearby Sacramento market demanded that KLOC be considered part of that market, raising the costs of syndicated programming and movies out of Chester's budget to the point where, less than two years after going on the air, he simulcasted the country music on KLOC/920 radio in the daytime and ran Spanish novelas at night, just to keep the license alive).<P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[EricStein]

>...I wonder if perhaps anyone here now can supply any
> additional information about Overmyer/United's affiliate
> list? What I've dug up so far is:
>
> WPHL/17 Philadelphia (Overmyer owned-and-operated,
> remarkably enough)
> WGN/9 Chicago (Independent)
> WVTV/18 Milwaukee (Independent; ran Bishop's ABC and Merv
> Griffin's CBS late night shows in the years immediately
> after this)
> WNWO/24 Toledo (Independent)

I believe this was WDHO, Overmyer's O&O flagship station, which later became an ABC affiliate, and a weak one at that.

> KPHO/5 Phoenix (Independent; ran the show after Carson's and
> Bishop's had ended each night)
> WTAR/3 Norfolk (CBS; ran Bishop's ABC show after United
> folded)
> WTVR/6 Richmond (CBS)

From what I've read, what remained of the United Network (the stations, excluding WDHO) became "U.S. Communications," and they put KEMO-20 (now KBWB) San Francisco and WATL-36 Atlanta on the air after the United Network folded. They weren't successful at operating independent stations either.

 

[KeithE]

> WVTV/18 Milwaukee (Independent; ran Bishop's ABC and Merv Griffin's CBS late night shows in the years immediately after this)

WVTV carried the Tonight Show for years. For some reason WTMJ didn't want it.

> WNWO/24 Toledo (Independent)

At the time, this station was WDHO-TV. They were an affiliate of all 3 networks but they only got the remnants of what WTOL/11 (primary CBS, secondary NBC) and WSPD/13 (primary NBC, secondary ABC) didn't want.

> ...there's also mention on a web site of an Indianapolis
> affiliate that not only ran "The Las Vegas Show" after
> Carson and Bishop had ended each night, but tape-delayed
> each program for over 48 hours after the network fed it!
> Perhaps WTTV/4?...

I think it was WTTV.

 

[oldtimeradio]

> > I wonder if perhaps anyone here now can supply any
> > additional information about Overmyer/United's affiliate
> > list?
>
> As was mentioned on the California board several months ago,
> KLOC/19 Modesto, Calif. also carried the Bill Dana program
> for the entire month it was on the air. I talked with
> then-owner Chester Smith at length and he definitely
> remembers being an affiliate; he had hoped that United would
> be able to expand and lower his dependence on syndicated
> programming (as it turned out, the stations in the nearby
> Sacramento market demanded that KLOC be considered part of
> that market, raising the costs of syndicated programming and
> movies out of Chester's budget to the point where, less than
> two years after going on the air, he simulcasted the country
> music on KLOC/920 radio in the daytime and ran Spanish
> novelas at night, just to keep the license alive).
>

Hi,

I can confirm that in Indianapolis the United Network affiliate was WLWI (channel 13). They were an ABC-TV affiliate at the time and delayed the show for 49.5 hours. That is, the Monday 11:30 p.m. feed was broadcast Wednesday night/Thursday morning at 1 a.m. If I remember correctly it was broadcast Wednesday through Sunday nights.

By the way the company changed from Overmyer to United a few months or so prior to the Las Vegas Show going on the air.


Indianapolis did a lot of strange things to TV schedules. I have one TV schedule that shows a 4 pm to midnight time block and the local NBC-TV affiliate does not have the Tonight scheduled at 10:30 EST/CDT (11:30 EDT).

Back in the early sixties, probably after they dropped the Steve Allen Westinghouse show, the ABC affiliate (WLWI) ran 77 Sunset Strip from 11:30 pm-12:45 am. Being school age I couldn't stay up on school nights to see how they stretched an hour program into a 75-minute time period. But, come Friday night I was up and watching. It turned out the hour long drama wasn't stretched out at all. The credits ran at 12:30, followed by some commercials and then a Warner Brothers cartoon. After the cartoon, more commercials, and then a closing slide indicating the end of 77 Sunset Strip for that night. I think sign off was 12:45 pm.<P ID="signature">______________
Mike
MOR Memories - Class from the Past
http://www.mormemories.com
































</P>

 

[KeithE]

> Indianapolis did a lot of strange things to TV schedules. I
> have one TV schedule that shows a 4 pm to midnight time
> block and the local NBC-TV affiliate does not have the
> Tonight scheduled at 10:30 EST/CDT (11:30 EDT).

IIRC, then-WFBM-TV/6 delayed The Tonight Show one hour (2 hours in the summer since everything was already delayed one hour in Indy), to 12:30 AM EST. I forget what they ran during the 11:30-12:30 period. WTHR/13 runs it at its proper time and I believe they always have since they got NBC in 1979.

WTWO/2 Terre Haute carried it at 10:30 PM in the summer. The Terre Haute stations didn't delay their summer schedules like the Indy stations back then, but it looks like they do now.

With all of Indiana finally switching to daylight time next year, this practice should finally end.

> Back in the early sixties, probably after they dropped the
> Steve Allen Westinghouse show, the ABC affiliate (WLWI) ran
> 77 Sunset Strip from 11:30 pm-12:45 am. Being school age I
> couldn't stay up on school nights to see how they stretched
> an hour program into a 75-minute time period. But, come
> Friday night I was up and watching. It turned out the hour
> long drama wasn't stretched out at all. The credits ran at
> 12:30, followed by some commercials and then a Warner
> Brothers cartoon. After the cartoon, more commercials, and
> then a closing slide indicating the end of 77 Sunset Strip
> for that night. I think sign off was 12:45 pm.

That sounds like WLWI. They were probably the worst major-market TV station in the country at the time (they even admitted it on the WTHR website but I think their history page is gone now).

 

[bayusm1]

> ...in the "what if" thread below about a fantasized
> Metromedia Network in 1965, brief mention was made about one
> of 1967's most notorious flops, the Overmyer Network. It
> existed for only 30 days, almost identically to Ed Wynn's
> Amalgamated radio network of the mid-'30s, and collapsed for
> the same reasons -- the money just wasn't there to operate
> the thing. Unlike Amalgamated, however, the network somehow
> found time to change its name to The United Network before
> the plug was finally pulled...
>
> ...its only offering was "The Las Vegas Show," a
> talk/variety combination (not unlike the 1954-57 Steve
> Allen/Ernie Kovacs version of "Tonight") hosted by Bill Dana
> (the nightclub comic whose character Jose Jimenez was a big
> hit on record albums around this time), and intended as
> late-night competition against Johnny Carson on NBC and Joey
> Bishop on ABC. I've Googled for this show and can only come
> up with a little information on affiliate stations,
> including from a thread on this same site from just over a
> year ago. I wonder if perhaps anyone here now can supply any
> additional information about Overmyer/United's affiliate
> list? What I've dug up so far is:
>
> WPHL/17 Philadelphia (Overmyer owned-and-operated,
> remarkably enough)
> WGN/9 Chicago (Independent)
> WVTV/18 Milwaukee (Independent; ran Bishop's ABC and Merv
> Griffin's CBS late night shows in the years immediately
> after this)
> WNWO/24 Toledo (Independent)
> KPHO/5 Phoenix (Independent; ran the show after Carson's and
> Bishop's had ended each night)
> WTAR/3 Norfolk (CBS; ran Bishop's ABC show after United
> folded)
> WTVR/6 Richmond (CBS)
>
> ...there's also mention on a web site of an Indianapolis
> affiliate that not only ran "The Las Vegas Show" after
> Carson and Bishop had ended each night, but tape-delayed
> each program for over 48 hours after the network fed it!
> Perhaps WTTV/4?...
>
> ...also, considering that WGN and WVTV ran it, did the other
> stations then owned by Tribune (WPIX/11 New York and KWGN/2
> Denver; any others?) and Gaylord (WKY/4 Oklahoma City,
> WTVT/13 Tampa, KTVT/11 Fort Worth; any others?) run it
> too?...
>
I Think I remember WJIM channel 6 in Lansing Michigan running that show, But I was just a boy and could only stay up in Fridays.

 

[RobertMoore]

> WVTV carried the Tonight Show for years. For some reason
> WTMJ didn't want it.

There was a reason for that. In 1979 "The Tonight Show" on WTMJ-4 was getting beaten in the ratings by off-network fare on WITI-6 and WISN-12 at the time. So WTMJ lobbied NBC to have Carson pushed back an half-hour (to 11PM), to which NBC agreed. But when WTMJ asked NBC if they could move it again to 11:30PM in 1984, the network told them no, which is weird because NBC was letting WVTM-13/Birmingham do that at the time. So WTMJ decided to drop Carson altogether, resulting in WVTV-18 picking up the show, where it aired for four years before returning to WTMJ.

 

[oldtimeradio]

>
> That sounds like WLWI. They were probably the worst
> major-market TV station in the country at the time (they
> even admitted it on the WTHR website but I think their
> history page is gone now).
>

Very interesting.

May I ask why they were considered, or they admitted, they were the worst major-market station in the country?

I always thought all the local stations did things in the same way, and that was the best viewers could expect at the time.

Each station had local "personalities" hosting kids shows, movie shoes, variety shows, etc. There were also lots of network shows pre-empted for local specials (public affairs, Indy 500, Indiana State Fair).

None of the stations were the caliber of the really big stations (NY LA Chicago) but for central Indiana what more could we ask?

Thanks for the information.

<P ID="signature">______________
Mike
MOR Memories - Class from the Past
http://www.mormemories.com
































</P>

 

[KeithE]

Re: WLWI Indianapolis

> >
> > That sounds like WLWI. They were probably the worst
> > major-market TV station in the country at the time (they
> > even admitted it on the WTHR website but I think their
> > history page is gone now).
> >
>
> Very interesting.
>
> May I ask why they were considered, or they admitted, they
> were the worst major-market station in the country?

I found the page. It's on Dispatch's corporate site, not WTHR's own website. And they didn't say they were the worst major-market station in the country. I said that. They just admitted they stunk.

From the page:
<font color=red>A 1974 study by AVCO, parent company of Crosley, described its Indianapolis station as a "third-rate, lackluster station lacking in a variety of the most fundamental professional credentials." The next year Crosley sold the station to the Wolfe family of Columbus, Ohio, operators of WBNS-AM-FM-TV there. The new owners, incorporated as VideoIndiana, Inc. changed the call letters to WTHR, improved facilities and made programming changes. Station manager, Chris Duffy, launched a major promotional campaign, much of it centered around the station's NewsCenter and news anchor Paul Udell, who would do extensive reporting from the field. </font>

And this was from their parent company's own study!

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.dispatchbroadcast.com/wthr.html>Link: Dispatch Broadcast Group - WTHR</a>

> I always thought all the local stations did things in the
> same way, and that was the best viewers could expect at the
> time.

WLWI was far behind the other stations, including WTTV, as far as technical quality, programming, and overall presence. Their signal didn't even come close to covering the 60-mile-radius market (it was all-but-unviewable in Bloomington, even on cable, at the time), while WTTV, WFBM/WRTV, and WISH came in very well. IIRC, they were the last commercial station in Indy to go color locally, sometime in the late '60s - not counting WTTV's programming that orignated in Bloomington which was never in color, at least through the early '70s.

I think ABC hedged its bet when they took their primary-affiliate status away from WTTV and gave it to the new WLWI in 1957. They kept WTTV around as a secondary affiliate until the early or mid '70s. WTTV didn't use it much, if at all, other than the week of November 22, 1963. ABC News coverage of Kennedy's assassination was carried on both Channels 4 and 13.

> Each station had local "personalities" hosting kids shows,
> movie shoes, variety shows, etc. There were also lots of
> network shows pre-empted for local specials (public affairs,
> Indy 500, Indiana State Fair).

They had plenty of local non-news programming in the '60s, just as Channels 4, 6, and 8 did at the time. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Indianapolis had more local programming than any mid-major-market (#20-50) city during the '60s, a time when local entertainment programming was slowly dying out.

Some of it was actually pretty decent, if low-budget, but not up to those on the other stations. They had kid-show-host Bill Jackson in the early '60s. He became more famous as the guy who gave WGN a run for their money at WFLD in Chicago a few years later. In fact, Jackson should be given most of the credit for making people aware that Channel 32 was even on the air. His show (I think it was on Sunday afternoons) wasn't as well-known as the WTTV shows, but I do remember watching it as a kid and liking it.

They also had an educational kids show called Kindergarten College that was on for probably 15 years, until WTIU, WFYI, and WIPB came on the air and made the show obsolete. They also carried Sesame Street for its first year on the air, until WFYI started up.

David Letterman was their weekend weatherman in the early '70s. He also had a late-night comedy/entertainment show for a couple of years as well - Friday or Saturday night, I believe. They also had their daily Indy 500 show every May that they pushed ad nauseum - and they weren't even allowed to carry the race!

Besides that, they carried the shows originating from other Avco/Crosley "WLW" stations - Midwestern Hayride, Ruth Lyons, & Phil Donohue. They were the lone ABC affiliate of the group (the Ohio stations were all NBC).

Their main problems were technical and management, and they had a very weak news operation compared to WFBM, WISH, and even WTTV. Their newscast was watched by almost nobody, but that was probably typical of ABC affiliates in that era.

> None of the stations were the caliber of the really big
> stations (NY LA Chicago) but for central Indiana what more
> could we ask?

Indianapolis somewhere around Market #20 in the '60s. WLWI was a weak affiliate of a weak network. Things turned around when Avco sold the station. I understand they're top-notch now under Dispatch, although I haven't seen them since my last visit to the area in '92.

> Thanks for the information.

You're welcome. :-D

 

[DrBear]

I'm not 100 percent sure but I believe WBAY in Green Bay (CBS in those days) carried the Dana show.

 

[Stitch]

Re: WLWI Indianapolis

> Indianapolis somewhere around Market #20 in the '60s. WLWI
> was a weak affiliate of a weak network. Things turned
> around when Avco sold the station. I understand they're
> top-notch now under Dispatch, although I haven't seen them
> since my last visit to the area in '92.

WTHR is in fact no. 1 now in almost all time periods (news ratings-wise, at least). WISH runs a close 2nd, at least it did a few books ago. WXIN, the Fox affiliate, (signing on as WPDS in 1984) holds it own at 10pm against WISH-TV's 10pm news on sister station WNDY.

WTTV is now sadly treated as the lesser step-child of WXIN, gaining lower-rated syndicated fare from WXIN and losing some higher-rated shows to the Fox affiliate.
LONG gone are the days of Cowboy Bob and Sammy Terry.

The biggest turnaround, at least backwards, is WRTV. Once the leader in the '70s through early '90s, the station now places 3rd, sometimes 4th.

 

[mmb5]

Few more:

Pittsburgh: WIIC-11 (NBC) at 11:30. Carson not cleared. Carson wasn't cleared in '67 by WIIC at all, usually showing movies
Wheeling: WTRF-7 (ABC/NBC) at 1:00 following Carson.
Reno: KOLO-8 (CBS) at 11:55
Beaumont/Port Arthur, TX: KFDM-6 (CBS) at 10:30
Los Angeles: KCOP-9 (Ind.) at 10:00
San Diego: KFMB-8 (CBS) at 10:30
Syracuse: WHEN-5 (CBS) at 11:30
Rochester, NY: WHEC-10 (CBS) at 11:30
Kansas City: KCMO-5 (CBS) at 12:15


Not cleared:

Cleveland
Johnstown, PA
St. Louis (despite an independent VHF)
St. Joseph, MO (one station market)
Kirksville, MO (one station market)


Sources: Various newspapers from Ancestry.com and NewspaperArchive.com

 

[bpatrick]

Re: WLWI Indianapolis

> > Indianapolis somewhere around Market #20 in the '60s.
> WLWI
> > was a weak affiliate of a weak network. Things turned
> > around when Avco sold the station. I understand they're
> > top-notch now under Dispatch, although I haven't seen them
>
> > since my last visit to the area in '92.
>
> WTHR is in fact no. 1 now in almost all time periods (news
> ratings-wise, at least). WISH runs a close 2nd, at least it
> did a few books ago. WXIN, the Fox affiliate, (signing on as
> WPDS in 1984) holds it own at 10pm against WISH-TV's 10pm
> news on sister station WNDY.
>
> WTTV is now sadly treated as the lesser step-child of WXIN,
> gaining lower-rated syndicated fare from WXIN and losing
> some higher-rated shows to the Fox affiliate.
> LONG gone are the days of Cowboy Bob and Sammy Terry.
>
> The biggest turnaround, at least backwards, is WRTV. Once
> the leader in the '70s through early '90s, the station now
> places 3rd, sometimes 4th.
>
Still, I don't think it's any secret why ABC dumped WTHR
for WRTV.

But I have a question concerning WTTV. Is the WB schedule
on clock time? In the Kentucky edition of TV Guide, a show
airing at 8 PM on Louisville's WB affiliate airs at 9 (EDT) on
WTTV. Indianapolis is not on daylight saving time at the
moment, so the show is airing at 8 PM local time. Why would
the WB show not air at 7 PM in Indianapolis?

 

[KingDaevid]

> Los Angeles: KCOP-9 (Ind.) at 10:00

...KCOP is Channel 13. Channel 9 was KHJ-TV at the time. Any clarification on which station ran it?...<P ID="signature">______________
King Daevid MacKenzie
WLSU Wisconsin Public Radio, La Crosse
heard weekly on http://whiterosesociety.org
"Kill Ugly Radio." FRANK ZAPPA</P>

 

[mmb5]

> > Los Angeles: KCOP-9 (Ind.) at 10:00
>
> ...KCOP is Channel 13. Channel 9 was KHJ-TV at the time. Any
> clarification on which station ran it?...
>
I meant KHJ. Oops.

Two others:
Detroit: WKBD-50 (Ind.) at 12:30 AM
Lansing: WJIM-6 (CBS) at 11:30 PM

As far as I can tell, it went uncarried in Grand Rapids, Flint and Traverse City.


--Mike

 

[oldtimeradio]

Re: WLWI Indianapolis

> Indianapolis somewhere around Market #20 in the '60s. WLWI
> was a weak affiliate of a weak network. Things turned
> around when Avco sold the station. I understand they're
> top-notch now under Dispatch, although I haven't seen them
> since my last visit to the area in '92.
>
> > Thanks for the information.
>
> You're welcome. :-D
>

And, thank you again for the extensive information that you provided.

<P ID="signature">______________
Mike
MOR Memories - Class from the Past
http://www.mormemories.com
































</P>

 

[K.M. Richards]

Resurrecting an almost ten-year-old thread (!!??!!):

> Los Angeles: KCOP-9 (Ind.) at 10:00

...KCOP is Channel 13. Channel 9 was KHJ-TV at the time. Any clarification on which station ran it?...

It was KHJ-TV. Here is the listing from the Pasadena Star-News on the premiere night:


Click on the thumbnail to make it readable size.

And for those who haven't discovered it yet, I wrote an article on the Overmyer Network on the "History of UHF Television" website which I am pleased to note appears third in the results list on Google, right under the Wikipedia article and Overmyer's obituary.

 

[JeffM]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure KDAL-TV (now KDLH) in Duluth, Minnesota ran the Las Vegas Show against Carson. They were owned by WGN in those days and carried the WGN Barn Dance, a local version of Treetop House, and other WGN-related programs. Maybe worth looking into the possibility KWGN in Denver carried it too.

 

[ixnay]

Resurrecting an almost ten-year-old thread (!!??!!):

Either you or danderson...

ixnay