The problem with HD detractors here (and elsewhere)

[SUPERCASTER]

Mike Walker said:

I haven't said that Ibiquity SHOULD sue anyone. I'm saying that making specific charges (and calling the technology "defective" is a specific charge. Defective technology DOESN'T WORK. I can easily demonstrate, and have on this board with recordings made at my house, that HD on fm at least DOES work) COULD be actionable legally.

No Mike, the definition of "defective" has nothing to do with something working or not working at your house.
For something to be "defective" does not mean that it does not work at all.
Defective products are recalled all the time, some work, but unexpectedly explode, cause damage, or harm for example.
Before you start playing lawyer, at least learn the meaning of the word "defective".
Defective=Faulty or deficient.

As for the rest of your post, it mostly deals with things you think I said, and what you think I mean, rather then what I actually said.

Mike again:

But if you claim it doesn't work...which has a specific meaning...doesn't deliver a solid digital signal with the claimed audio fidelity from point a to point b, then you are (in my opinion, and again I'm not a lawyer) on shaky legal ground SHOULD IBIQUITY or a station specifically mentioned choose to persue it. That's my ONLY point.

I never said that HD radio does not work at all, under any circumstances. What I have said is HD radio is problematic, does more harm then good, does not live up to the iBiquity/cartel's claims, and (as reported here by many) does not work under many circumstances, such as indoors with the supplied antennas, at many locations. That definitely makes HD radio defective (faulty).

None of what I said has anything to do with your house, your location, or if you are happy with HD radio. Nor your ramblings about what you think I said, or your interpretations of what you think, that I might have implied.

No, I don't think iBiquity or the cartel can sue me for what you think I said.

Consider yourself disbarred for total lack of comprehension.

 

[Mike Walker]

By your own definition, my HD Radio is neither faulty, nor deficient. Hence: NOT "defective". And it can be demonstrated to not be defective.

FM stations that could only be received with lots of noise, or heavily blended toward mono are received with full 96db dynamic range, full separation, and no noise...and at 60-80 miles...which is at the edges of ANY claimed analog coverage area. Coverage for most HD stations is as good (on my Accurian, with my SR100 antenna) or BETTER (usually better) than I would receive with anything short of an expensive component tuner (costing perhaps a thousand bucks or more), an outdoor yagi antenna and rotor (perhaps 200 dollars for the hardware, and another hundred bucks to get it installed because I'm legally blind...can't climb on the roof!) If a 100 dollar table radio that receives audio on the level of a multi-thousand dollar analog rig seems in any way "defective" to you, or doesn't represent pretty damn incredible value, then I'm afraid that says more about you than me.

I should have included the words "as claimed". One definition of a defective product is that it doesn't work "as claimed". FM HD radio does (in most cases, and performance will improve with each new generation of radios...these are the FIRST ONES. In effect, early-adopters are "beta testers" as sadly is the case with most new consumer electronics these days!).

Now a strong case can be made that AM HD MAY BE "defective". Again, I have yet to hear it, so I'm withholding final judgement (as I should...as anyone who hasn't experienced HD radio IN THEIR HOMES, listening to THEIR FAVORITE STATION(s) should!) But I really don't see how it doesn't cause more problems than any that it can solve. And talk about poor coverage, there are so many observations on the 'net from people who can see the station's towers, but not receive the HD signal! Time so start over, and find an alternate solution! But hell, if am and fm hd both are replaced in a couple of years, I have invested the grand sum of 130 dollars in the technology. I have HUNDREDS of dollars invested in AM stereo, and I don't even regret that. It gave me years of listening pleasure, as HD is doing now!

 

[700WLW]

By your own definition, my HD Radio is neither faulty, nor deficient. Hence: NOT "defective". And it can be demonstrated to not be defective.

FM stations that could only be received with lots of noise, or heavily blended toward mono are received with full 96db dynamic range, full separation, and no noise...and at 60-80 miles...which is at the edges of ANY claimed analog coverage area. Coverage for most HD stations is as good (on my Accurian, with my SR100 antenna) or BETTER (usually better) than I would receive with anything short of an expensive component tuner (costing perhaps a thousand bucks or more), an outdoor yagi antenna and rotor (perhaps 200 dollars for the hardware, and another hundred bucks to get it installed because I'm legally blind...can't climb on the roof!) If a 100 dollar table radio that receives audio on the level of a multi-thousand dollar analog rig seems in any way "defective" to you, or doesn't represent pretty damn incredible value, then I'm afraid that says more about you than me.

I should have included the words "as claimed". One definition of a defective product is that it doesn't work "as claimed". FM HD radio does (in most cases, and performance will improve with each new generation of radios...these are the FIRST ONES. In effect, early-adopters are "beta testers" as sadly is the case with most new consumer electronics these days!).

Now a strong case can be made that AM HD MAY BE "defective". Again, I have yet to hear it, so I'm withholding final judgement (as I should...as anyone who hasn't experienced HD radio IN THEIR HOMES, listening to THEIR FAVORITE STATION(s) should!) But I really don't see how it doesn't cause more problems than any that it can solve. And talk about poor coverage, there are so many observations on the 'net from people who can see the station's towers, but not receive the HD signal! Time so start over, and find an alternate solution! But hell, if am and fm hd both are replaced in a couple of years, I have invested the grand sum of 130 dollars in the technology. I have HUNDREDS of dollars invested in AM stereo, and I don't even regret that. It gave me years of listening pleasure, as HD is doing now!

There are many personal examples of HD Radio/IBOC, being defective on both broadcast bands:

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,51315.0.html

 

[Len14043]

Now a strong case can be made that AM HD MAY BE "defective". Again, I have yet to hear it, so I'm withholding final judgement (as I should...as anyone who hasn't experienced HD radio IN THEIR HOMES, listening to THEIR FAVORITE STATION(s) should!) But I really don't see how it doesn't cause more problems than any that it can solve. And talk about poor coverage, there are so many observations on the 'net from people who can see the station's towers, but not receive the HD signal! Time so start over, and find an alternate solution! But hell, if am and fm hd both are replaced in a couple of years, I have invested the grand sum of 130 dollars in the technology. I have HUNDREDS of dollars invested in AM stereo, and I don't even regret that. It gave me years of listening pleasure, as HD is doing now!

I travel often and had a chance to hear many AM IBOC stations and determined that IBOC is a mixed bag for AM. While it doesn't work well for local and regional channels, it works exceeding well for clear channel (not the company) stations such as WLW and WJR that enjoy co and first ajacient channel protection. I was amazed while driving through Columbus and hearing WLW like a local FM station. It sounded like WLW belonged in Columbus.

 

[700WLW]

Now a strong case can be made that AM HD MAY BE "defective". Again, I have yet to hear it, so I'm withholding final judgement (as I should...as anyone who hasn't experienced HD radio IN THEIR HOMES, listening to THEIR FAVORITE STATION(s) should!) But I really don't see how it doesn't cause more problems than any that it can solve. And talk about poor coverage, there are so many observations on the 'net from people who can see the station's towers, but not receive the HD signal! Time so start over, and find an alternate solution! But hell, if am and fm hd both are replaced in a couple of years, I have invested the grand sum of 130 dollars in the technology. I have HUNDREDS of dollars invested in AM stereo, and I don't even regret that. It gave me years of listening pleasure, as HD is doing now!

I travel often and had a chance to hear many AM IBOC stations and determined that IBOC is a mixed bag for AM. While it doesn't work well for local and regional channels, it works exceeding well for clear channel (not the company) stations such as WLW and WJR that enjoy co and first ajacient channel protection. I was amazed while driving through Columbus and hearing WLW like a local FM station. It sounded like WLW belonged in Columbus.

Interesting claim - when running IBOC on AM, WLW and WOR interfere with each other:

"Running interference"

http://beradio.com/features/radio_running_interference/

Disclaimer: these tests, were run out of an iNiquity van.

 

[board_manager]

Numerous posts on this thread were relocated to the DX and Reception board because they had little to do with the HD board. You can read those posts by following the below URL.

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,60912.msg425072.html#msg425072

 

[MotoMuzak]

Cleaning house?

 

[PhilJSmith67]

FM stations that could only be received with lots of noise, or heavily blended toward mono are received with full 96db dynamic range, full separation, and no noise...and at 60-80 miles...which is at the edges of ANY claimed analog coverage area.

Wow. That completely amazes me, because where I am, I get a dial full of analog FM stations from 35 miles away on any receiver in my house and in the car with either very little hiss, or full-quieting. Almost all have good separation. Well, except for the stations on 1st-adjacents to the HD Radio stations that are now UNLISTENABLE.

But, that's not the part that really amazes me, because analog FM stations always boomed in fine. What gets me is that I can't get anything close to what resembles reliable HD Radio reception from the same stations, except for three of them (one of which is only 1.7 miles away, and the other two at 15 miles). But, what's really cool is the same JVC receiver gets the analog signals from these stations quite well. It just can't keep a lock the HD Radio bitstreams. I suspect that some of the stations' IBOC signals are being corrupted by the 1st adjacents, which although I cannot hear anymore, are still "there."

I am not talking DX here. 35 miles over flat terrain, transmitted from 1200' to 1700', is NOT "shooting DX." This is ample, consistent FM signal. I don't want to hear that I'm "outside the 54dBu contour so these are DX stations." The average AM/FM listener doesn't give a hoot about contours, yagis, dipoles, etc. None of my indoor receivers have an outdoor antenna. One has a dipole. Others have telescopic or line-cord antennas. One is a "shower radio" with a little 2ft pigtail for an antenna. They all work well. I am sure the KD-HDR1 does not suffer from manufacturing defects. It is pretty obvious that it's the iBiquity hybrid IBOC system that suffers from defects.

I know that I could help the situation by knocking a hole in the fender of my car to install a whip antenna. But, therein lies the problem! The Blaupunkt I pulled out of the same car, which I am going to reinstall, worked very well with the back-window dipole. The KD-HDR1 itself gets decent analog FM reception on the same dipole. With this system, I feel like I've been transported back to the 1960s when you had to be within 25 miles of Chicago to get any FM stations at all.

As for AM HD Radio on the JVC, it actually works!!! The audio suffers noticeably from compression with the lower bitrate, but sounds richer than the analog counterpart of the same stations, which are obviously limited to 5kHz.

As for that 54dBu contour... For the Chicago FM stations, I am within it.

 

[Mike Walker]

No wonder HD is getting a bad name in some quarters. My experience is, of course only MY experience. But it indicates that HD is capable of a MUCH better results than many are experiencing.

So far I've heard HD only with a Boston Acoustics Receptor HD in the middle of Winston Salem (in a Tweeter store) where it got almost nothing, with powerful stations booming in, and at my home in rural Wilkes County (NC) where I get GREAT reception on my Accurian despite the fact that I am between 60 and 80 miles from most stations, over hilly/mountainous terrain.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

I may give the Accurian a try, but I want to hear it work in person before I buy another doorstop. I saw the Boston Acoustics receiver in a Tweeter store as well, and it worked horribly even connected to the store's roof antenna. But, most radios have problems at stores because of the high amount of RFI.

 

[calstymes]

Mike Walker observed:

No wonder HD is getting a bad name in some quarters. My experience is, of course only MY experience. But it indicates that HD is capable of a MUCH better results than many are experiencing.

So far I've heard HD only with a Boston Acoustics Receptor HD in the middle of Winston Salem (in a Tweeter store) where it got almost nothing, with powerful stations booming in, and at my home in rural Wilkes County (NC) where I get GREAT reception on my Accurian despite the fact that I am between 60 and 80 miles from most stations, over hilly/mountainous terrain.

I started posting on this message board over a year ago, lamenting the absolutely AWFUL performance of the Boston Acoustics receptor in New York City. Of course, then there are those who are lucky enough to have BA receptors that happened to be manufactured exceptionally well and offer outstanding performance in communities out to 50 miles around NYC. Go figure.

This, in combination with poor advertising for the product and the fact that the great unwashed public does not seem to be very interested in this wonderful new cellular technology it might indicate that the ever present, all powerful Ibiquitous may have some difficult times ahead paying off their speculative investors.

Ah, no wonder the friendly candy company is assisting them!