The radio sucks in my market

[TheFonz]

I don't think I'd want to spend my advertising dollar on a "statistical sample". Show me a list of addresses that are going to hear my message.

You have no more way of knowing when a person is going to listen to the radio (future = crystal ball) than you do of knowing if a newspaper subscriber is going to even open the paper, let alone read a specific section, page and advertisement.

It's just me. I see a better percentage in putting my advertising dollar on a person who buys a newspaper than a person who owns a radio.

 

[davideduardo]

It's just me. I see a better percentage in putting my advertising dollar on a person who buys a newspaper than a person who owns a radio.

With print, you have no knowledge of whether a paper was read, just that it was sold. There is no proof it was picked up and read. There is not proof that a specific page was read. There is definitely no proof that a specific ad was read.

Radio and TV (including cable and broadcast TV) can guarantee to advertisers the number of persons actually tuned in at each time an ad is run. With the Nielsen meter in TV and the PPM in radio, stations do what is called "posting" where an advertiser is guaranteed viewer or listener delivery or they receive a credit in money if delivery is lower than promised.

This is why newspaper revenue is down 30% over the last two years alone, and several major newspaper companies are at the brink of entering chapter 11 bankruptcy.

 

[TheFonz]

Radio and TV (including cable and broadcast TV) can guarantee to advertisers the number of persons actually tuned in at each time an ad is run. With the Nielsen meter in TV and the PPM in radio, stations do what is called "posting" where an advertiser is guaranteed viewer or listener delivery or they receive a credit in money if delivery is lower than promised.

Now, you'll really have to explain THAT. Maybe you should give us an example. Pick a market, station, day, and time. Tell us how many people were listening and how that number was determined.

 

[davideduardo]

Now, you'll really have to explain THAT. Maybe you should give us an example. Pick a market, station, day, and time. Tell us how many people were listening and how that number was determined.

It's all computerized. In TV, a client buys spots on a variety of shows on a station or network or cable channel baseed on past ratings. When the spots air, and then when the ratings for the days and hours are out, the promised delivery is compared to actual for the day and hour of each bought show and the rate credited if the delivery is below the commitment.

This has been going on for years in TV and will be with the meter in Radio.

A fictional case would be a client buying on, let's say, Idol. The net promises delivery of at least 20 million homes. The ratings show 18 million, so the client gets a 10% credit on his invoice. If they deliver 25 million homes, there is no additonal charge, though, in most cases. Posting protects the client against overage in the CPP.

 

[TheFonz]

Now, you'll really have to explain THAT. Maybe you should give us an example. Pick a market, station, day, and time. Tell us how many people were listening and how that number was determined.

It's all computerized. In TV, a client buys spots on a variety of shows on a station or network or cable channel baseed on past ratings. When the spots air, and then when the ratings for the days and hours are out, the promised delivery is compared to actual for the day and hour of each bought show and the rate credited if the delivery is below the commitment.

This has been going on for years in TV and will be with the meter in Radio.

A fictional case would be a client buying on, let's say, Idol. The net promises delivery of at least 20 million homes. The ratings show 18 million, so the client gets a 10% credit on his invoice. If they deliver 25 million homes, there is no additonal charge, though, in most cases. Posting protects the client against overage in the CPP.

You didn't answer my question. I want an example using an actual station, on a specific date and time, with a head count.

 

[davideduardo]

Now, you'll really have to explain THAT. Maybe you should give us an example. Pick a market, station, day, and time. Tell us how many people were listening and how that number was determined.

It's all computerized. In TV, a client buys spots on a variety of shows on a station or network or cable channel baseed on past ratings. When the spots air, and then when the ratings for the days and hours are out, the promised delivery is compared to actual for the day and hour of each bought show and the rate credited if the delivery is below the commitment.

This has been going on for years in TV and will be with the meter in Radio.

A fictional case would be a client buying on, let's say, Idol. The net promises delivery of at least 20 million homes. The ratings show 18 million, so the client gets a 10% credit on his invoice. If they deliver 25 million homes, there is no additonal charge, though, in most cases. Posting protects the client against overage in the CPP.

You didn't answer my question. I want an example using an actual station, on a specific date and time, with a head count.

I don't have the software agencies use to do posting which is only in preparation stage in radio; it has been used for many, many years in TV and is an accepted practice.

Here is how it would work in LA for a specific case.

Bud buys KROQ at 25 spots a week, 6 AM to Mid M-Sun against 18-34 (it would really be Men 18-34, but I am keeping this simple)

Based on the Winter book, KROQ has a 0.9 rating in that full week time frame. The 25 spots give them 22.5 Grips and the agency pays $5625 for the 25 spots.

The spots run for 6 weeks between April and early June. That's a total of $33,700 for the buy.

The Spring book comes out. KROQ has a 1.0 rating. The agency actually got 150 Grips, when they paid for 202 Grips. The saved money vs. the delivery.

But the other scenario is different. The book comes out and KROQ has a 0.8 rating. That is 11.1% below the expected delivery, so the agency will expect about $4,000 in credit for the underage... usually the credit is in more spots to make up for the short delivery.

Posting will probably be done for the entire campaign for radio, using averages. However, with the PPM, just like TV, all the advertiser has to do is have the software look at each quarter hour where the spot runs and pull out the rating. Add the underages and overages and matches, and you get the exact number of gross ratings points (Grips) the campaign delivered and you compare it with what you bought... and ask for a credit if the Grip deliver comes up short.

 

[landtuna]

And therein lies the fallability of advertising.....

Of all the men "reached" by the ads mentioned above the majority already have their preferred taste in beer and won't switch based on a cutsie commercial. Others don't drink at all or don't drink beer. Chances are the advertiser is just going to irritate the intended victim, er, target.

A-B has by many accounts the best commercials on TV but I imagine our S.O.'s appreciate the humor much more than the men do. I wouldn't drink a Bud if it was fresh out of the horse.

 

[TheFonz]

Now, you'll really have to explain THAT. Maybe you should give us an example. Pick a market, station, day, and time. Tell us how many people were listening and how that number was determined.

It's all computerized. In TV, a client buys spots on a variety of shows on a station or network or cable channel baseed on past ratings. When the spots air, and then when the ratings for the days and hours are out, the promised delivery is compared to actual for the day and hour of each bought show and the rate credited if the delivery is below the commitment.

This has been going on for years in TV and will be with the meter in Radio.

A fictional case would be a client buying on, let's say, Idol. The net promises delivery of at least 20 million homes. The ratings show 18 million, so the client gets a 10% credit on his invoice. If they deliver 25 million homes, there is no additonal charge, though, in most cases. Posting protects the client against overage in the CPP.

You didn't answer my question. I want an example using an actual station, on a specific date and time, with a head count.

I don't have the software agencies use to do posting which is only in preparation stage in radio; it has been used for many, many years in TV and is an accepted practice.

Here is how it would work in LA for a specific case.

Bud buys KROQ at 25 spots a week, 6 AM to Mid M-Sun against 18-34 (it would really be Men 18-34, but I am keeping this simple)

Based on the Winter book, KROQ has a 0.9 rating in that full week time frame. The 25 spots give them 22.5 Grips and the agency pays $5625 for the 25 spots.

The spots run for 6 weeks between April and early June. That's a total of $33,700 for the buy.

The Spring book comes out. KROQ has a 1.0 rating. The agency actually got 150 Grips, when they paid for 202 Grips. The saved money vs. the delivery.

But the other scenario is different. The book comes out and KROQ has a 0.8 rating. That is 11.1% below the expected delivery, so the agency will expect about $4,000 in credit for the underage... usually the credit is in more spots to make up for the short delivery.

Posting will probably be done for the entire campaign for radio, using averages. However, with the PPM, just like TV, all the advertiser has to do is have the software look at each quarter hour where the spot runs and pull out the rating. Add the underages and overages and matches, and you get the exact number of gross ratings points (Grips) the campaign delivered and you compare it with what you bought... and ask for a credit if the Grip deliver comes up short.

Nice explanation. But it means nothing to me as a potential advertiser. I'd rather spend my buck with newspapers. They can tell me how many people spend hard earned money purchasing their product. And when people buy a product, they usually intend to use it.

 

[BRNout]

Nice explanation. But it means nothing to me as a potential advertiser. I'd rather spend my buck with newspapers. They can tell me how many people spend hard earned money purchasing their product. And when people buy a product, they usually intend to use it.

Clearly, your point of view is not resonating with advertisers because they've been abandoning newspapers in droves. While it's true that radio may not be the best medium for an advertiser, it can still be pretty effective. And, with the new technology that David explained, it's quite easy for them to track how their ad budget is being spent.

With a newspaper, all you know is that the paper was bought. You have little or no research available to tell you who read it or whether your ad had any impact at all - or if it was seen at all (I think DE explained that already, but I am giving it another shot). If you think that the demo issue is bad with radio (i.e. the advertisers want to pitch to the younger crowd), it is murder with newspapers. And, those ads that are somewhat effective in the papers tend to be those where there's some sort of coupon or give-away. But, overall, that medium is a very poor investment these days.

High demos and no guarantee that the subscriber has even read the page that you're on. Blah! Talk about tossing good money after bad. If you would want your money to go there (versus radio or TV), then you should be kept away from a casino at all costs!!

 

[vibe]

Most, if not all people who buy their newspapers a la carte tend to read them quite thoroughly. At least that's been my observation. But sometimes a discarded paper gets reread and reread. Last week at Poland Spring ME at least 5-10 people read the same paper. I clearly observed it. Someone would read it and leave it for the next person in the hotel lobby. I'm sure it happens on buses and subways as well.
And in FLA with a lot of seniors on fixed incomes, you find folks swapping different papers with their friends/neighbors.
All I know is that if a merchant has something REAL good for sale, word spreads.

 

[davideduardo]

Nice explanation. But it means nothing to me as a potential advertiser. I'd rather spend my buck with newspapers. They can tell me how many people spend hard earned money purchasing their product. And when people buy a product, they usually intend to use it.

If you are a potential advertiser, and only use print, you either have a tiny business that uses those "neighborhood guide" ads to sell in segmented parts of a city or you are going to be out of business even sooner than the papers.

If you are an investor, you know that print companies are teetering at the edge of chapter 11 in many cases, and we are going to see huge change there since revenues are off about a third in the last three to four years, and nearly 15% in just the last year.

 

[TheFonz]

Nice explanation. But it means nothing to me as a potential advertiser. I'd rather spend my buck with newspapers. They can tell me how many people spend hard earned money purchasing their product. And when people buy a product, they usually intend to use it.

If you are a potential advertiser, and only use print, you either have a tiny business that uses those "neighborhood guide" ads to sell in segmented parts of a city or you are going to be out of business even sooner than the papers.

If you are an investor, you know that print companies are teetering at the edge of chapter 11 in many cases, and we are going to see huge change there since revenues are off about a third in the last three to four years, and nearly 15% in just the last year.

Radio-Info homepage headline Sat July 12: "More tough sledding for beaten-up radio stocks". Nuff said.

 

[Don62]

Radio-Info homepage headline Sat July 12: "More tough sledding for beaten-up radio stocks". Nuff said.

You got that pegged!

Radio stinks in most places, especially FM. The medium is beset by a big case of mediocrity. Rather, ownership not encouraging "out of the box thinking" or "broadcasting" primarily by pitifully low wages and excessive use of automation.

When the largest radio station owner calls itself an advertising venue - and considers anyone behind a microphone as a drag on "its" profitability (which is always the top concern), that tells you a lot about the state of the industry.

 

[Don62]

This post is exactly what I mean by radio sucking. Let's face it, the powers that be have ruined radio.

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index...lies=61;sesc=3a40b7c942fea9c109559665c534d178

Much of our talk has focused on: Can the "vehicle" continue without Paul Harvey at the wheel?

I think it would be next to impossible for some talented young broadcaster today to sit down and say: "I have the prototype, I have the template.... I'm going to replicate what Paul Harvey did!"

The infrastructure of traditional network radio 50 years ago was a great launching pad.

I don't think a youngster today can just pick up the Paul Harvey script and play the part again. I don't think a youngster today can just pick up the Rush Limbaugh script and play the part again.

If someone has the push, the drive, the energy, the hormones and at least a little bit of talent, what would be the rewritten script for the next talking broadcast hall of fame candidate?

If someone has the push, the drive, the energy, the hormones and at least a little bit of talent, what would be the rewritten script for the next talking broadcast hall of fame candidate?

[size=10pt]There won't be a next one. The suits that run radio won't let it happen. Radio is in its twilight years. It might hang on as a sort vestigal afterthought in the world of electronic media. If there's a re-written script it will be a return to "guerilla" radio, on extremely low budgets, operated by hobbiests and afficianados. The big corporate chains will eventually achieve their apparent goal of using their local stations as nothing but repeaters for their homogenized national programming.

The stations not operated by the major broadcast corporations will either sign affiliate deals like the ones that television stations have with the major networks, or they'll air nothing but brokered shows.

It's a sad future, but that doesn't mean it's not what is likely to happen.

[/size]

 

[davideduardo]

Radio-Info homepage headline Sat July 12: "More tough sledding for beaten-up radio stocks". Nuff said.

It's tough sledding for the entire stock market... the Dow is off 3000 points just in a few months. Don't just single out radio when many industries are even worse off.

 

[KeithE4]

Radio-Info homepage headline Sat July 12: "More tough sledding for beaten-up radio stocks". Nuff said.

You got that pegged!

Radio stinks in most places, especially FM. The medium is beset by a big case of mediocrity. Rather, ownership not encouraging "out of the box thinking" or "broadcasting" primarily by pitifully low wages and excessive use of automation.

When the largest radio station owner calls itself an advertising venue - and considers anyone behind a microphone as a drag on "its" profitability (which is always the top concern), that tells you a lot about the state of the industry.

Newsflash: All publicly-traded companies, regardless of what their product is (broadcasting, cars, steel, or hamburgers), are mandated by Federal law to maximize profit for their shareholders. That is Job One. If that means producing a mediocre-but-money-making product with the least number of humans possible, so be it. Blame the SEC and Congress, not the corporate executives who are required by law to do this.

Privately-held companies don't have those restrictions. They are not regulated by the Federal Gummint outside of their broadcasting licenses. They can put out a good product for somewhat less profit if they want to (see: Bonneville, although they certainly do make a nice profit from their efforts), or they can do what the big corporate mucky-mucks do. There is probably as much of the former as the latter. These broadcasters answer to no one but themselves, the FCC, and their advertisers.

 

[TheFonz]

Radio-Info homepage headline Sat July 12: "More tough sledding for beaten-up radio stocks". Nuff said.

It's tough sledding for the entire stock market... the Dow is off 3000 points just in a few months. Don't just single out radio when many industries are even worse off.

I only singled out radio as a response to your singling out newspapers.

 

[davideduardo]

It's tough sledding for the entire stock market... the Dow is off 3000 points just in a few months. Don't just single out radio when many industries are even worse off.

I only singled out radio as a response to your singling out newspapers.

The radio industry continues to provide profits of significance for owners of viable technical facilities. On the other hand, papers like the New York times continue to report double digit declines month after month in 2008 after doing the same thing all last year. Analysts predict several major paper chains will be forced into chapter 11 in the near future.

There is a valid comparison between the fate of radio vs the doom in print, since you keep trying to insist that print is a better ad medium. Except for specialized magazines, print is essentially dead. You noticed we don't have evening papers in 99% of the US any more, and all but a couple of markets can not sustain two daily morning papers, something that was common 40 to 50 years ago. And you don't see Life and Look and Colliers out there, either.

Name one viable radio station in the U.S. that has closed in the last five decades. I can name dozens and dozens of newspapers, from the Hrald Tribune in NY to the News in Cleveland that have.

 

[davideduardo]

Newsflash: All publicly-traded companies, regardless of what their product is (broadcasting, cars, steel, or hamburgers), are mandated by Federal law to maximize profit for their shareholders. That is Job One. If that means producing a mediocre-but-money-making product with the least number of humans possible, so be it. Blame the SEC and Congress, not the corporate executives who are required by law to do this.

That is totally and irresponsibly untrue.

 

[Don62]

Newsflash: All publicly-traded companies, regardless of what their product is (broadcasting, cars, steel, or hamburgers), are mandated by Federal law to maximize profit for their shareholders. That is Job One. If that means producing a mediocre-but-money-making product with the least number of humans possible, so be it. Blame the SEC and Congress, not the corporate executives who are required by law to do this.

That is totally and irresponsibly untrue.

I agree totally.