The Real Reason WSB-AM dropped IBOC/HD Radio

[jal41]

Stumbled across this

http://www.stopiboc.com/dropping.html

Contacted by this site for comment, Mr. Davis was asked if he could confirm or deny that IBOC had been abandoned by Cox. He replied, "we haven't abandoned it, but we do not use it." Stopiboc.com pressed for a clarification. Mr. Davis continued: "We have a contract with iBiquity for the delivery of the units for our AMs. When they arrive, we install them, test them, make sure they meet the mask, then shut them back off. We have a boss who was once a program director, and on one brand of car radio…you can hear a faint buzz. The boss says we're not going to compromise our signal quality. That doesn't mean we might not put IBOC back on IF iBiquity can find a way to mitigate the issue. But for now, we are not running IBOC, except to test it after installation.

Translation...Bob Neil's own car radio had problems with WSB-AM's signal with the IBOC on...so he ordered it off until it the problem could be fixed (which may be never...I understand AM IBOC is a total disaster).

 

[kyscott]

Stumbled across this
Translation...Bob Neil's own car radio had problems with WSB-AM's signal with the IBOC on...so he ordered it off until it the problem could be fixed (which may be never...I understand AM IBOC is a total disaster).

I wish our WHAS would turn their IBOC signal off. At times, their hiss is just as loud as the audio. I listen to WKRC in Cincinnati when I can instead of WHAS because of it.

 

[al_atl]

and on one brand of car radio…you can hear a faint buzz.

I've got news. It's more than one brand of radio, it's more than just car radios and it's often more than a faint buzz. My experience is that it's usually a pretty annoying hiss which, in the car, seems to get louder and louder the closer you get to the transmitter. IBAC is an inadequate solution desperately in search of a problem. A bad idea, poorly executed.

Sterling Davis and Bob Neil for Cox got this one right.

 

[taylorengineer]

My guess is the reason WSB AM is not using IBOC is because there are NO radios to listen to digital AM with....at least none that work! Most current models have very poor performance and effectively limit coverage. Due to Ibiquity forced design specifications the analog performance is horrible.
IF....there were ANY interest from the public....there would be radios in the stores. And WSB AM would be trashing the dial with IBOC like everyone else.
Can you name even five people, outside radio, who own a HD radio? Do you know anyone who wants one?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I suspect another issue may have come into play - coverage. WSB's coverage issues, due to poor conductivity in the Atlanta area, are well documented. If any station ever needed superpower status, WSB would be it. Their is nothing wrong with their transmitter or tower - I used to be able receive them in the daytime in Lubbock, TX, with a 4 foot loop and GE Superadio 3. IBOC seems to limit coverage - some stations previously very strong in the fringes in West Texas such as KMKI - which had clear C-Quam stereo for 290 miles - suddenly were much weaker coinciding with the adoption of the Ibiquity system. Meanwhile, stations not using IBOC have splendid signals at 300 miles out - it is possible to clear WBAP and KSKY to sound local in Lubbock with a small loop. If WSB had coverage problems before, IBOC probably made the situation even worse.

 

[BarryATL]

Question for you engineer types. It was mentioned above about ground conductivity issues we have in Georgia. It made me think of the drought. With the drop in the water table and the dry soil, does that affect coverage of AM stations?

In particular I am thinking about WSB-AM. Their ground system is under a paved parking lot.

 

[IFB64]

To a certain extent, yes dry conditions do reduce coverage. Not a huge change, but it does. Another thing that seems to happen is: Power lines get noisey in dry weather (and then really get noisey with the first rain)which tends to lend to the perception that coverage is worse during dry cnx.

If you dig into AM applications, they are usually having the ground conductivity measurements made during dry hot months...becuase the field intensity is down, which may allow a few kW more power for the final license.

It is amazing to hear the ground conductivity differences around the country, up north a 1kW station on 1490 covers as well as some of the higher-powered-low-frequency stations down here. That 1kW stops a scan 30-40 miles out. (Ground conductivity around 12 vs 1 or 2 down here...an that 2 is on a good day, no birds in the way!.

 

[littlejohn]

Basically, Atlanta sits above Stone MOuntain. Granite has about the conductivity of Teflon <tm>, and as a consequence, AMs here don't cover well at all.
The reduction in coverage from HD isn't from yours, but from the guy's who is close to you on the dial. His digital carriers desensitize your receiver. Consequently, sort of by 'gentlkeman's agreement' most of the AM stations have dropped running HD. They should probably 'sunset' regular AM in fiavro of digital within the same spectrum. FM HD works pretty good. And would work handsomely from a fidelity standpoint if th eoperators assigned the entire bitstream to one stereo sudio program.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Basically, Atlanta sits above Stone MOuntain. Granite has about the conductivity of Teflon <tm>, and as a consequence, AMs here don't cover well at all.
The reduction in coverage from HD isn't from yours, but from the guy's who is close to you on the dial. His digital carriers desensitize your receiver. Consequently, sort of by 'gentlkeman's agreement' most of the AM stations have dropped running HD. They should probably 'sunset' regular AM in fiavro of digital within the same spectrum. FM HD works pretty good. And would work handsomely from a fidelity standpoint if th eoperators assigned the entire bitstream to one stereo sudio program.

Uh - coverage problems on FM, too. I documented a 60 mile reduction in range on one station (they have since corrected it). But if they take the easy way out and put separate antennas on the tower instead of combining - coverage goes way down.

EVERY time in the past that a major new method of transmission was developed, the FCC opened a new band for it and mandated that radios be able to receive the new band. There is a lot of spectrum available - longwave which is essentially wasted in outdated aircraft beacons - the soon to be vacated lower VHF band, etc. Those were the proper places to put digital transmission, since users would need new radios anyway to receive digital. Instead, the FCC allows stations to be bad neighbors to first adjacents, becoming bloated spectrum hogs. Just my take on this defective system the FCC has saddled radio with.

 

[grmf]

The drawback to AM IBOC is it requires you to decrease audio bandwidth to 5kHz. That in-itself isn't the end of the world, most car stereos have a fairly narrow bandwidth to help reduce noise and interference. But with that digital signal crowding the analog it easy for itto "bleed through," and cause unwanted noise.

 

[littlejohn]

I cant agree with Carter's assessment. I've not seen any FM coverage degredation. The comment 'They've since corrected it' leads me to think that the station ran their analog at lower power for some reason at the outset.
As to new spectrum, neither of the two most used new transmission techniques - NTSC color television or stereo FM broadcasts - required new spectrum. In fact, much of the complexity of both is/was due to the backwards compatibility requirement.
Broadcasters are unwilling to pay, monetarily or politically for new spectrum. It's worth more to others, and money talks. And reallocation in today's ebnvironment would be a nightmare. Consequently, IBOC is what we got.
We ought to set a 'sunset' date for FM analog, though, and take advantage of all the spectrum space for digital.

 

[IFB64]

We ought to set a 'sunset' date for FM analog, though, and take advantage of all the spectrum space for digital.

Amen. Shut down the fat analog carriers, and do a higher powered version of IBOC. That works.

 

[tomservo]

We ought to set a 'sunset' date for FM analog, though, and take advantage of all the spectrum space for digital.

Amen. Shut down the fat analog carriers, and do a higher powered version of IBOC. That works.

When?

 

[the_widows_son]

When NTSC TV goes away AM stations should move to channel 2 - 6.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I cant agree with Carter's assessment. I've not seen any FM coverage degredation. The comment 'They've since corrected it' leads me to think that the station ran their analog at lower power for some reason at the outset.

Of course not. You are well known as a proponent of IBOC. I am merely reporting observations that are repeatable, done under carefully controlled conditions. I am not the only one who has noted decreased coverage on some FM stations, reports have come in from listeners all over the country. The one common thread - every time - is that the FM station put up separate bays for the digital portion, instead of combining.

It used to be - that when fringe listeners told an engineer about coverage problems, they were listened to. A wise engineer would get right out there with field strength measurements and verify the problem, then get to the transmitter site and fix the problem. Fringe area listeners were a valuable asset to station engineers.

Now - if we dare to suggest that this sacred cow called IBOC is in any way limiting coverage, we get marginalized. Sad - really sad.

The emperor isn't wearing any clothes. But if he wants to continue prancing around in the buff - I am getting to the point where I am sick of telling him about it.

 

[the_widows_son]

"I am merely reporting observations that are repeatable, done under carefully controlled conditions."

Please share these "controlled conditions" I would love to test this with my own stations.

"It used to be - that when fringe listeners told an engineer about coverage problems, they were listened to. A wise engineer would get right out there with field strength measurements and verify the problem, then get to the transmitter site and fix the problem. Fringe area listeners were a valuable asset to station engineers."

What century did this happen?

 

[BarryATL]

"I am merely reporting observations that are repeatable, done under carefully controlled conditions."

Please share these "controlled conditions" I would love to test this with my own stations.

"It used to be - that when fringe listeners told an engineer about coverage problems, they were listened to. A wise engineer would get right out there with field strength measurements and verify the problem, then get to the transmitter site and fix the problem. Fringe area listeners were a valuable asset to station engineers."

What century did this happen?

I am no engineer, but in the late 70s early 80s, I took an interest in what the engineers did at each of the three stations I was involved in. the_widows_son is correct as far as what I have experienced. At one station we had a field measurment that had to be done on a regular basis because of the critical hours directional patter. That point happened to be in the middle of a lake. The engineer was so anal, he would row a boat into the middle of the lake to take the measurment. But, that is another story.

In each station if there was a complaint from a listener about reception, it was referred to the engineer. I remember the engineer in Dallas, GA would report back on each one. I heard in one of the reports where he fixed a sr. citizens radio... the interal antenna wire came loose and she could not pick up the station.

So, back in the day, some engineers were taken seriously and took great pride in their work.

 

[taylorengineer]

1. Littlejohn is regarded as one of the more competant engineers this side of HumpHill, Miss.
2. I have never considered Littlejohn a "proponent of" or "cheerleader for" IBOC.
3. The "cheerleader" critique is getting borish. Technical merits please!
4. Can you elaborate on your testing methodology and the basis for your conclusions?

 

[the_widows_son]

LittleJohn is one of the best engineers in the market. He has a proven track record of success at several stations.

??? I would love to hear how you can fix a transmitter so the station can better serve the fringe areas. Is this a tuning control on a transmitter I have not seen? It must be a knob between the "TSL Maximize" and "The Cume Compiler" controls. I bet it's one of the set screws they smear Locktite on so you can't eaisly adjust it.

: Anyone who counts on having a listener call to tell you they can't hear the station you are far from being a wise engineer.

I am going to call Charlatan on this one too.

 

[taylorengineer]

Just Damn!
My transmitters do NOT have the TSL Maximize control OR the Cume Compiler control.
I TOLD the DE not to buy a BE or Continentals. No wonder the fringe areas on our stations are noisy. And to think....I thought it was the IBOC!!
My audio processor, however, does have a "SUX" control......