The Spring Book

[davideduardo]

Some more information - there's nothing so far besides inherent honesty to keep the person supposedly carrying themeter from simply tieing it to his dog's collarand leaving the radio running at the house all day.

The motion detector algorithm would likely notice that the movements were not a human pattern.

 

[Yail Bloor]

Rodney Ho had on his blog this morning that the Regular Guys had a good showing for the spring and that mid-days on Rock 100.5 is doing well with Erin. She is such a hottie,I talk to her all the time on My Space.

Creepy.


So these codes that are embedded in the frequencies for the PPM, do those apply to online streams as well?

 

[Fran]

The members of the panel change after 24 months, or earlier if they do not cooperate or decide to quit. The whole idea is to have same-person data over 2 years.

I really think that is a very bad idea, that said, I doubt if there could ever be a perfect ratings survey. Even if chips were embedded into the radio itself . . . . a listener could be driving along with three passengers (the passengers would not be counted), or an office radio stays on after the listener goes home, etc. etc. But at least the listeners being surveyed would be random and not subject to a criteria, such as willingness to fill out a diary or forced to carry the one function PPM device.

I saw a movie years ago where there was an audience board in the control room that displayed the number of listeners to this station (for its time, it looked very impressive). I always thought that eventually the ratings system would come to that point. Of course, know we know that if that were the case, the local radio stations would go out and buy 10,000 radios and keep them on 24/7. So maybe there will never be a perfect ratings system. Even with a radio-chip system, it would be a challenge to determine demographics, short of comprising a grid that projected the ages of the listeners to a particular format.

Even with all the faults of the diary method, the Atlanta ratings have generally stayed consistent over the years. CBS, COX and Radio One on top and Clear Channel lagging far behind.

Biggest complaint about PPM, is that for a year a WVEE listener will be cumed as a consistent country listener only because he/she stood in line at Dunkin Donuts for five minutes every morning. . . . if this is such a grand idea, why not just let diary keepers (who do a good job in their reporting) keep reporting, sweep after sweep? After you get a good number of good reporting 18-34 males, pretty soon that demo is no longer a problem!

 

[RoddyFreeman]

Even with all the faults of the diary method, the Atlanta ratings have generally stayed consistent over the years. CBS, COX and Radio One on top and Clear Channel lagging far behind.

Biggest complaint about PPM, is that for a year a WVEE listener will be cumed as a consistent country listener only because he/she stood in line at Dunkin Donuts for five minutes every morning. . . . if this is such a grand idea, why not just let diary keepers (who do a good job in their reporting) keep reporting, sweep after sweep? After you get a good number of good reporting 18-34 males, pretty soon that demo is no longer a problem!

The Nielsen TV household panel stays in tact longer than 24 months, and it's worked well for many years. And those other 3 listeners in the car are not supposed to be counted because they're not in the sample. The PPM has a volume threshold for listening to be recorded. But if the V-103 listener in Dunkin Donuts was able to hear the station well and was there long enough to be counted as a listener, he or she would be a listener for that little time.

You're correct that despite all the screaming from stations, the diary system has performed well, especially in major markets. The consistency proves that. If WSB-AM went from an 8.1 share to a 4.2 and then to an 8.1, it would be another story. Stuff like that does happen, but it's rare. Certain cells, such as men 18-24, have sometimes been problematic, but overall the system has worked fine.

 

[davideduardo]

So these codes that are embedded in the frequencies for the PPM, do those apply to online streams as well?

Yes, but they are considered separate entities unless 100% identical to the on air signal.

 

[RTibbs]

Roddy you need a flurry of posts to even get within one tenth of DavidEduardo Keep going brother. You can do it.

 

[OutOfTheBiz]

Biggest complaint about PPM, is that for a year a WVEE listener will be cumed as a consistent country listener only because he/she stood in line at Dunkin Donuts for five minutes every morning. . . . if this is such a grand idea, why not just let diary keepers (who do a good job in their reporting) keep reporting, sweep after sweep? After you get a good number of good reporting 18-34 males, pretty soon that demo is no longer a problem!

If he stood in line and heard a country station for 5 minutes every day, he SHOULD be counted. Just because he didn't "choose" the station doesn't mean he won't still hear the commercials that are airing, and that is REALLY what is being measured.

 

[Fran]

The Nielsen TV household panel stays in tact longer than 24 months

Just because Neilson does it that way, does not necessarily make it right. However, if it is right, then why doesn’t Arbitron do it “that way” with diary keepers? Hasn’t that been the big Arbitron complaint, “we can’t find males 18-34?” Well, once you find them, keep them! I personally am not in favor of re-surveying the same listeners . . . . IMHO I’d prefer a new random group for each period. . . but times are changing.

As far as the Dunkin Donut listener . . . maybe it is time to rethink the age old 5 minute cume rule. Given the fallacy of this new PPM technology, perhaps a listener should have to listen for 30 minutes a week to be in the cume count. That would still allow those subjected to “forced listening” to be counted (as in the workplace).

And yes, the diary method in Atlanta is pretty consistent and the diary system accurately reported the demise of Clear Channel’s “Peach” after the CC geniuses changed it to "Lite". . . Bob Neil reportedly said that the main reason Peach scored well is because the station was called “Peach.”. . . the neverending idiotic mistakes of CC in Atlanta are mind-boggling!

 

[davideduardo]

Just because Neilson does it that way, does not necessarily make it right. However, if it is right, then why doesn’t Arbitron do it “that way” with diary keepers? Hasn’t that been the big Arbitron complaint, “we can’t find males 18-34?” Well, once you find them, keep them!

The reason Nielsen keeps TV panels longer is that there is a physical installation to the TV, requiring a technician. The PPM kit is just sent in a box by UPS and the user sets them up.

Diarykeepers, if I recall from some old studies, fall off in performance after a week or so. They forget to fill in diaries, they forget to mail them, they stop participating.

But the issue is not retaining 18-34 men or ethnic groups... the problem is not obtaining them... that is done by oversampling.

The problems are cost and immediacy. The diary results take over a month to obtain, mail back and process. This slows down the data. And to do a diary report with monthly, accurate data, would require 3 times the sample... much higher cost, and little improvement in immediacy. Agencies wanted fast, electronic measurement. That is what the PPM delivers. Arbitron wanted to cut recruit costs, and in a way they got that, although maintaining a panel may be more costly than finding a new sample every week.

[/quote]As far as the Dunkin Donut listener . . . maybe it is time to rethink the age old 5 minute cume rule. Given the fallacy of this new PPM technology, perhaps a listener should have to listen for 30 minutes a week to be in the cume count. That would still allow those subjected to “forced listening” to be counted (as in the workplace).[/quote]

The agencies want an measurement of exposure. Don't be surprised if we get to by-the-minute ratings eventually.

 

[Fran]

But the issue is not retaining 18-34 men or ethnic groups... the problem is not obtaining them... that is done by oversampling.

Trust this, if oversampling was the solution, this problem would have been solved years ago. There are a number of weeks when there are not 30 males (18-24 and sometimes 18-34) surveyed. Easy enough to discern since Maximiser will not provide data unless there are 30 listeners sampled in the target demo . . . sometimes you have to go 2-3 weeks deep to get 30 younger males.

In ref to PPM - to make a judgment or offer an opinion I’d first have to see a mechanical diary (whatever that data is called in the PPM world) of what a typical day of listening looks like. At this point, as an example, what I would expect to see is a WALR-WAMJ listener with five minute bursts of WWVA, WNNX, etc., just because the listener happened to be in the random vicinity of a second party radio.

The WWVA-WNNX cume reporting is unfair to the agency and equally unjust to the programmer. . . . remember a high cume and a low AQH usually means you are doing something to run off listeners. The result, from a programming standpoint, is that the cume will become unreliable.

 

[Kabrich]

The Nielsen TV household panel stays in tact longer than 24 months

Just because Neilson does it that way, does not necessarily make it right. However, if it is right, then why doesn’t Arbitron do it “that way” with diary keepers? Hasn’t that been the big Arbitron complaint, “we can’t find males 18-34?” Well, once you find them, keep them! I personally am not in favor of re-surveying the same listeners . . . . IMHO I’d prefer a new random group for each period. . . but times are changing.

As far as the Dunkin Donut listener . . . maybe it is time to rethink the age old 5 minute cume rule. Given the fallacy of this new PPM technology, perhaps a listener should have to listen for 30 minutes a week to be in the cume count. That would still allow those subjected to “forced listening” to be counted (as in the workplace).

And yes, the diary method in Atlanta is pretty consistent and the diary system accurately reported the demise of Clear Channel’s “Peach” after the CC geniuses changed it to "Lite". . . Bob Neil reportedly said that the main reason Peach scored well is because the station was called “Peach.”. . . the neverending idiotic mistakes of CC in Atlanta are mind-boggling!

There is no 5 minute Cume Rule. You write down in the diary you listened to a station for 1 second, you are in the Cume. You pass by someone playing a station and the PPM picks it up, you are in the Cume.

There is a 5 minute AQH rule which means to be counted in that Quarter Hour, you need to listen to the station for at least 5 out of 15 minutes.

The bottom line in the PPM world is that the PPM picks all that up - and yes, the Cume numbers for stations go through the roof. Unfortunately, because they do not give you 5 minutes of listening in the Quarter Hour, its meaningless - and thus you would never see it in the numbers you see on radio-info.com.

We are now referring to this as "drive by Cume" as you get Cume Credit for it - but it does you no good in the ratings numbers you see from Arbitron on Radio-Info - it doesn't count.

But the issue is not retaining 18-34 men or ethnic groups... the problem is not obtaining them... that is done by oversampling.

Trust this, if oversampling was the solution, this problem would have been solved years ago. There are a number of weeks when there are not 30 males (18-24 and sometimes 18-34) surveyed. Easy enough to discern since Maximiser will not provide data unless there are 30 listeners sampled in the target demo . . . sometimes you have to go 2-3 weeks deep to get 30 younger males.

In ref to PPM - to make a judgment or offer an opinion I’d first have to see a mechanical diary (whatever that data is called in the PPM world) of what a typical day of listening looks like. At this point, as an example, what I would expect to see is a WALR-WAMJ listener with five minute bursts of WWVA, WNNX, etc., just because the listener happened to be in the random vicinity of a second party radio.

The WWVA-WNNX cume reporting is unfair to the agency and equally unjust to the programmer. . . . remember a high cume and a low AQH usually means you are doing something to run off listeners. The result, from a programming standpoint, is that the cume will become unreliable.

You cannot use the old Diary Formulas in a PPM World. Anyone that uses the same formulas is a fool.

Furthermore, Agencies do not BUY Cume....they buy Average Quarter Hour Rating Points.

Finally, Atlanta has been notoriously UNDERSAMPLED for years - and it will not get better with PPM.

Biggest complaint about PPM, is that for a year a WVEE listener will be cumed as a consistent country listener only because he/she stood in line at Dunkin Donuts for five minutes every morning. . . . if this is such a grand idea, why not just let diary keepers (who do a good job in their reporting) keep reporting, sweep after sweep? After you get a good number of good reporting 18-34 males, pretty soon that demo is no longer a problem!

If he stood in line and heard a country station for 5 minutes every day, he SHOULD be counted. Just because he didn't "choose" the station doesn't mean he won't still hear the commercials that are airing, and that is REALLY what is being measured.

For someone out of the business, you get it.

 

[RTibbs]

If I am Dave FM. I go to Publix and pay to have my station played in all Publix stores in this market. Aldo does this mean KRGR will now sow up in the ratings :

 

[Mr_Place]

Publix will take Dave's money to play Kroger spots in their store?

 

[Nautel]

Rodney Ho had on his blog this morning that the Regular Guys had a good showing for the spring and that mid-days on Rock 100.5 is doing well with Erin. She is such a hottie,I talk to her all the time on My Space.

Creepy.


So these codes that are embedded in the frequencies for the PPM, do those apply to online streams as well?

Yes, every audio path is a stream, FM, AM, Internet, HD2, HD3.

For every stream you have 3 boxes, Primary encoder, Backup Encoder and an Encoding Monitor.

For instance: WSB-FM would 12 boxes for that station.

 

[Fran]

Furthermore, Agencies do not BUY Cume....they buy Average Quarter Hour Rating Points.

True, but local sales people do sell cume. Even in this world where AQH rules the agencies, local advertisers still spend a ton of money on stations with a large cume. . . .the salesperson drops a [cume] chart on their desk and proclaims that his/her station reaches more listeners (in whatever demo). The advertiser is sold on the station's big listenership (or impessive pop count).

As far as getting a better AQH. . . .wouldn't hurt to make the station sound better!

 

[Sykotik Monkey]

And Giant Brian's show wins Comeback Player of the Month for a 70% increase or so in their numbers 18-34.

I don't think the better ratings can be credited to to the Giant Show. Project has definitely improved their playlist to match more of 99X's taste, and I'd bet that is where most of the listeners came from. Myself included. But when Brian or Shaffee start to speak, I turn it off. If anything, the Giant show is holding them back.

 

[davideduardo]

There is no 5 minute Cume Rule. You write down in the diary you listened to a station for 1 second, you are in the Cume. You pass by someone playing a station and the PPM picks it up, you are in the Cume.

I am afraid that disagrees with the PPM description of methodology, the latest edition of which states, "Weekly Cume Persons
[Weekly Cume (00)] Weekly Cume Persons is the number of different, unduplicated persons within aspecific demo that have been exposed to the target station for at least five minutes during a quarter-hour within a specified daypart during an average week in the
report period. Weekly Cume Persons estimates for individual stations are determined by summing the weekly weights for each panelist with at least one quarter-hour of listening to that station within a daypart for each week in the report period, and dividing by the number of weeks in the report period. Weekly Cume Persons estimates are rounded to hundreds."

There is a 5 minute AQH rule which means to be counted in that Quarter Hour, you need to listen to the station for at least 5 out of 15 minutes.

And to count in cume, you must have at least a quarter hour per your formula. Some are not aware that the 5 minutes don't have to be consecutive in the PPM, but did have to be in the diary.

Unfortunately, because they do not give you 5 minutes of listening in the Quarter Hour, its meaningless - and thus you would never see it in the numbers you see on radio-info.com. We are now referring to this as "drive by Cume" as you get Cume Credit for it - but it does you no good in the ratings numbers you see from Arbitron on Radio-Info - it doesn't count.

"Minimum Reporting Standards (MRS) An encoded station or combo is eligible to be listed in the Radio Market Report if the station or combo has achieved at least five minutes of listening (within a quarter-hour) from at least one in-tab PPM panelist and an average Weekly Cume Rating of at least 0.495 during the Monday-Sunday 6AM-Midnight daypart for the applicable report period."

So the cume only counts if there is also a credited quarter hour to go with it.

But the issue is not retaining 18-34 men or ethnic groups... the problem is not obtaining them... that is done by oversampling.

Trust this, if oversampling was the solution, this problem would have been solved years ago. There are a number of weeks when there are not 30 males (18-24 and sometimes 18-34) surveyed. Easy enough to discern since Maximiser will not provide data unless there are 30 listeners sampled in the target demo . . . sometimes you have to go 2-3 weeks deep to get 30 younger males.

Arbitron never sold us a weekly or even monthly diary service. They sold us a 12 week sample that, at the end of 12 weeks, was supposed to be fairly well balanced in each demo, fter the whole sample is obtained. And the way they get at least close to the problem cells, such as 18-34 males and Hispanics, is by doing lots more calls, using DST, and in general using a quota sample rather than a random probability sample on the problem cells... that is oversampling as there is no longer a random sample when they do that.

 

[Fran]

Arbitron never sold us a weekly or even monthly diary service. They sold us a 12 week sample that, at the end of 12 weeks, was supposed to be fairly well balanced in each demo, fter the whole sample is obtained. And the way they get at least close to the problem cells, such as 18-34 males and Hispanics, is by doing lots more calls, using DST, and in general using a quota sample rather than a random probability sample on the problem cells... that is oversampling as there is no longer a random sample when they do that.

Actually, with the diary (via Maximiser) you could go in and look at any week (or specific weeks) that you wanted to. Might be helpful if you had a particular promotional period you wanted to check on. Problem was that when you checked into certain demos, the sample might have been too small to produce a result. Meaning that 30 people had to included in that sample. . . often times (especially with younger male demos) there were not 30.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, with the diary (via Maximiser) you could go in and look at any week (or specific weeks) that you wanted to. Might be helpful if you had a particular promotional period you wanted to check on. Problem was that when you checked into certain demos, the sample might have been too small to produce a result. Meaning that 30 people had to included in that sample. . . often times (especially with younger male demos) there were not 30.

People who look at individual weeks probably sort their music tests on cells that have nine or ten respondents in them, too. Neither option has enough sample to be useful, and there is more potential damage to be done than benefits that can be obtained. The sample is not balanced and weighted by the week or month, and the whole survey is based on the full 12 weeks.

My car will do 160. I have never driven it that fast, because it is not a sensible thing to do... just like trying to form conclusions on a single week with only 8% of the sample.

My favorite is people who look at men 18-34 Saturday 7 to Midnight. The PUR in that daypart is about a 3.0 or so in some markets, meaning 97% of the population is not listening at any given moment... for many demos and dayparts, there simply can't be enoug sample because the industry can not afford such a sample.

 

[Kabrich]

There is no 5 minute Cume Rule. You write down in the diary you listened to a station for 1 second, you are in the Cume. You pass by someone playing a station and the PPM picks it up, you are in the Cume.

I am afraid that disagrees with the PPM description of methodology, the latest edition of which states, "Weekly Cume Persons
[Weekly Cume (00)] Weekly Cume Persons is the number of different, unduplicated persons within aspecific demo that have been exposed to the target station for at least five minutes during a quarter-hour within a specified daypart during an average week in the
report period. Weekly Cume Persons estimates for individual stations are determined by summing the weekly weights for each panelist with at least one quarter-hour of listening to that station within a daypart for each week in the report period, and dividing by the number of weeks in the report period. Weekly Cume Persons estimates are rounded to hundreds."

There is a 5 minute AQH rule which means to be counted in that Quarter Hour, you need to listen to the station for at least 5 out of 15 minutes.

And to count in cume, you must have at least a quarter hour per your formula. Some are not aware that the 5 minutes don't have to be consecutive in the PPM, but did have to be in the diary.

Unfortunately, because they do not give you 5 minutes of listening in the Quarter Hour, its meaningless - and thus you would never see it in the numbers you see on radio-info.com. We are now referring to this as "drive by Cume" as you get Cume Credit for it - but it does you no good in the ratings numbers you see from Arbitron on Radio-Info - it doesn't count.

"Minimum Reporting Standards (MRS) An encoded station or combo is eligible to be listed in the Radio Market Report if the station or combo has achieved at least five minutes of listening (within a quarter-hour) from at least one in-tab PPM panelist and an average Weekly Cume Rating of at least 0.495 during the Monday-Sunday 6AM-Midnight daypart for the applicable report period."

So the cume only counts if there is also a credited quarter hour to go with it.

But the issue is not retaining 18-34 men or ethnic groups... the problem is not obtaining them... that is done by oversampling.

Trust this, if oversampling was the solution, this problem would have been solved years ago. There are a number of weeks when there are not 30 males (18-24 and sometimes 18-34) surveyed. Easy enough to discern since Maximiser will not provide data unless there are 30 listeners sampled in the target demo . . . sometimes you have to go 2-3 weeks deep to get 30 younger males.

Arbitron never sold us a weekly or even monthly diary service. They sold us a 12 week sample that, at the end of 12 weeks, was supposed to be fairly well balanced in each demo, fter the whole sample is obtained. And the way they get at least close to the problem cells, such as 18-34 males and Hispanics, is by doing lots more calls, using DST, and in general using a quota sample rather than a random probability sample on the problem cells... that is oversampling as there is no longer a random sample when they do that.

Interesting - they changed the Cume calculation and just like the HDHA change that just happened, did not bother to tell anyone. Why am I not surprised?

The last quote was not mine.