The state of AM Radio

[JaneChristo]

BZ might sound good in HD - but the IBOC noise is outrageous!

What noise? I don't hear noise.

KDKA has lost loads of skywave signal due to the IBOC of WBZ.

Since when are we trying to protect Skywave coverage? There is no money or ratings to be had from skywave. ANd for stations to be sucessful, they need revenue...and none of it comes from Skywave.

 

[raccoonradio]

Stepping over other stations, maybe. Some say IBOC should be I-BlOCk. Yeah before I got things like XM radio or a smartphone I'd try to get something like baseball playoffs on WEPN 1050 NY (before they went Spanish) and 'BZ blocked them. And yes skywave isn't the focus it's the local area. Despite boasts of "38 states and 6 provinces".

 

[pqgeorge]

Sorry Commissioner but there is not enough spectrum for allowing all AM'ers to get a FM translator. The only way to do it is to open up TV Channels 5 and 6 (72-88 MHz) for an extended FM band. That's the only way to do it. Otherwise you're only having pipe dreams. Also, you must turn off IBOC on the AM band. It causes major interference and makes the main channel (analog) sound like crap with continuous hiss in the background. Half the reason why AM sounds lousy today is the NRSC mask (10 kHz max) and putting digital IBOC on a band that was never designed to handle digital.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Since when are we trying to protect Skywave coverage? There is no money or ratings to be had from skywave. ANd for stations to be sucessful, they need revenue...and none of it comes from Skywave.

We're not trying to protect skywave, but that isn't the issue. HD interferes with distant stations in their *groundwave* coverage areas, especially under nighttime propagation conditions. Skywave will be there whether we like it or not and it wreaks havoc on the band when you're discussing HD on AM. (Or, as an engineer once told me, "The laws of physics are a b**ch.") And when trying to receive analog stations, the noise is increased by the HD carriers. Just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it isn't measurable.

"crainbebo" should have said: "KDKA has lost loads of groundave signal due to the IBOC of WBZ."

 

[JaneChristo]

"KDKA has lost loads of groundave signal due to the IBOC of WBZ."

I'll let CBS worry about that, since it's their two properties.

 

[p1ague]

Sorry Commissioner but there is not enough spectrum for allowing all AM'ers to get a FM translator. The only way to do it is to open up TV Channels 5 and 6 (72-88 MHz) for an extended FM band. That's the only way to do it. Otherwise you're only having pipe dreams.

Well, to be fair, she didn't say they should *grant* all the applications, just that they should open a window for which only AM licensees could APPLY for a translator. One hopes the acceptance rate would take those factors into account.

 

[Bongwater]

Here's a better idea for the conglomerates - Make them USE what they already HAVE.

When they gave them HD Radio, they promised an explosion of radio choices that would put satellite to shame in order to get that. Well, WHERE IS IT?

10 years later.....Nothing but MP3 jukeboxes, New Age talk and ethnic feeds.

No wonder HD has failed. But while they're quick to write HD off (while still keeping it on of course) and demand analog FM translators, I say enough is enough. It's time for the CEOs to forget the new yacht and start INVESTING back into their stations instead of hogging up more airspace. And the first thing is to mandate all new radios have HD capability. Second, start transitioning their AM formats onto HD FMs.

We have a bunch of LPFMs we're supposed to approve. We can't do that as crowded as the terrestrial FM band already is with them demanding MORE FM frequencies. They've played this game long enough. And as far as I'm concerned, the free ride is over.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

the first thing is to mandate all new radios have HD capability. Second, start transitioning their AM formats onto HD FMs.

Good luck getting that approved, especially since the FCC has already nixed the first...and while some of the second has already occurred, it's being met with the same apathy that HD in general has engendered.

And with over a billion analog radios out there, and given the fact that people don't buy radios like they used to (they buy things with radios in them, when they need to), HD-capable radios will take decades to reach critical mass, if they ever do.

 

[JaneChristo]

Here's a better idea for the conglomerates - Make them USE what they already HAVE.

When they gave them HD Radio, they promised an explosion of radio choices that would put satellite to shame in order to get that. Well, WHERE IS IT?

10 years later.....Nothing but MP3 jukeboxes, New Age talk and ethnic feeds.

#1...who said it would "explode"?

#2...Why are you commenting on a Boston board on things you apparently don't know anything about?

Every Major station in Boston is offering an HD2 feed, Comedy, Jazz, 70's, Soft AC, Christian Rock, Classic Country, Oldies, Freeform, Album Rock(ala WBCN), Blues, Classical, Irish Music, Rhythmic AC, Local music, Show-tunes, etc.

 

[crainbebo]

I was talking about the adjacent frequencies to WBZ. KDKA is completely killed at night in the Northeast, and anything on 1040 vanishes due to the horrible IBOC sideband of WBZ.

WINS 1010 in NYC has that same problem - WMVP 1000 suffers from IBOC noise as well as even more to KDKA 1020.

-crainbebo

 

[nowradioguy]

... You must turn off IBOC on the AM band. It causes major interference and makes the main channel (analog) sound like crap with continuous hiss in the background. Half the reason why AM sounds lousy today is the NRSC mask (10 kHz max) and putting digital IBOC on a band that was never designed to handle digital.

Peter is correct; the nature of the IBOC signal is such that it actually sounds like random noise in the background. I live in the Merrimack Valley, and there's no reason why 'BZ should have an audible hiss in the background, but their HD is what causes it. 'RKO does not have an HD and its reception is nearly perfect.

I also agree - no FREE FM translators or HD-2/-3 authorizations for AM'ers who ceded an FM license years ago.

And while we're at it: HD-2/-3 on FM is no prize, either. Very hard to pick it up here in the MV unless I'm on I-93 headed south towards Boston.

AM 1510 and AM 1200 with their 50-KW transmitters are , in my mind, wasting energy, since their directional patterns are such that they go nowhere.

Someone else remarked that the directional patterns of the "heritage" stations, WEEI 590, WHDH 850, WMEX 1510 didn't keep up with the explosive growth of the metro-west suburbs et al. How very true.

Another STUPID move: a "heritage station" (see above) giving up its call letters so as not to be associated with its past.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Another STUPID move: a "heritage station" (see above) giving up its call letters so as not to be associated with its past.

Keeping a "heritage" call sign never gained or lost a listener, nor did it help sell any advertising time. Call signs, especially in the age of PPM, are irrelevant, a hold-over from antiquated, obsolete FCC rules. No other country requires legal ID's (and some don't even bother with call signs), and they all seem to do just fine without them.

The only people to whom call signs matter post here.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

AM 1510 and AM 1200 with their 50-KW transmitters are , in my mind, wasting energy, since their directional patterns are such that they go nowhere.

How nice of you to decide that for them. I'm sure the owners of those stations will be tremendously relieved to know that you deemed their businesses irrelevant and a waste. Heck, they can just shut off the transmitter, turn out the lights, fire their employees and go home, without a care in the world.

 

[fybush]

AM 1510 and AM 1200 with their 50-KW transmitters are , in my mind, wasting energy, since their directional patterns are such that they go nowhere.

Not so...at least not exactly.

If you're looking at radio-locator coverage maps, it looks like coastal stations such as these are sending huge lobes out into the ocean, but they're not really. What you're seeing on the R-L maps is the effect of much higher ground conductivity over water vs. over the relatively poor soil of New England. You can see the same effect with stations such as WLYN, WESX and WJDA, all of them using non-directional antennas but all still appearing to throw much more signal over water than over land. (Even more dramatic is the 30 kW day signal of WMVX, ex-WNSH, on 1570.)

As long as you have large population centers in close proximity to salt water, this will always happen. It's not stupid, nor is it a waste; it's just the laws of physics at play.

In the particular cases of 1200 and 1510, their current night signals were squeezed in quite late in the game. Both had to protect much older class I clear-channel signals and thus had to put significant nulls to the south and west (toward San Antonio for 1200, toward Nashville for 1510, and also toward Sherbrooke QC for 1510). All you can do if you're designing a station like that is to put it as far to the south or west as you can get it while still providing sufficient signal level over the city of license. Sure, that means a lot of signal gets pointed out to sea - but what matters isn't what goes out to sea, it's how much population sits between the transmitter and the sea. That's still several million people in the case of both of those signals - and that's hardly "wasting energy."

It's true as well that 590, 850 and 1510 (and 680, too) were all designed to cover the metro Boston of the 1940s and 1950s, not the metro Boston of today. That's true of AMs all over the country, and there's only so much that can be done about it. 590's tightly hemmed in by WTAG on 580, of course. But even if you could find the allocation spacing to move any of those signals west - and then get zoning permission to build new AM DAs somewhere like Dover or Sherborn or Hopkinton (which will never happen!) - there's still a tradeoff: your increased signal strength in Metro West means lower signal strength in Boston and on the coast.

The Boston market, as it now exists, is simply too big, and the ground conductivity too poor, for any AM station other than WBZ to truly be a full-market signal. And WBZ, of course, has the unique advantage of being a class I-A clear channel that could perch on the edge of the ocean and blast all of its signal inland, because it didn't (and doesn't) have to protect anything at all beyond itself.

Another STUPID move: a "heritage station" (see above) giving up its call letters so as not to be associated with its past.

Aside from us geeks, who remembers WMEX? Even if you make the case that the original WMEX was still worth paying attention to in its final years, that was 35 years ago now. Someone who was 18 years old in 1978 is 53 now and already aging out of the desirable sales demos. And the 18 year olds of 1978 were probably listening to WCOZ or WBCN, anyway, not WMEX. Even the oldies revival of WMEX on 1150 was more than 20 years ago now.

"Heritage" in radio is a slippery thing. If you're not constantly keeping the heritage alive, it dies awfully quickly.

 

[Willits]

Not so...at least not exactly.




Aside from us geeks, who remembers WMEX? Even if you make the case that the original WMEX was still worth paying attention to in its final years, that was 35 years ago now. Someone who was 18 years old in 1978 is 53 now and already aging out of the desirable sales demos. And the 18 year olds of 1978 were probably listening to WCOZ or WBCN, anyway, not WMEX. Even the oldies revival of WMEX on 1150 was more than 20 years ago now.

"Heritage" in radio is a slippery thing. If you're not constantly keeping the heritage alive, it dies awfully quickly.

To accentuate this point, and going back to the original topic "The State of AM Radio", to summarize the "state", look at the average 25-year old. Where does radio fit into his/her lifestyle? It doesn't look very good.

 

[coolaid213]

@JaneChristo.... People are commenting on this thread from outside of Boston because it's linked on the front page of Radio Discussions as an active forum topic.

My opinion is that AM radio still has some life left in it. I've been working in AM radio for 10 years and I'm only 28 now. As of late, the 20-something hipster crowd is embracing cassette tapes, vinyl, AM radio, and all kinds of other stuff you wouldn't expect. I think the only problem with AM is that Clear Channel owns all the good signals across the country. Noise levels are bad is some areas, and not so bad in others. At my house in Florida I can easily receive all the big clear channel stations across the country, and the locals sound pretty good too. With all the talk of the technological limitations of AM, I think everyone is forgetting the technological advantages... A *good* AM signal can cover such a large area during the daytime, regardless of your average electrical interference. I think all the class C and D stations should be able to power up. Let the class C's crank up to 5k... damn the consequences. You already can't hear any of the class C's outside of their COL, so hell with it, crank it up! It'll keep all the DXers busy, and extend the range their nighttime groundwave coverage. Again... it already sounds like mush...

Of course, you could never migrate all the AM signals to FM. And HD "sounds" like a great idea on paper... but it doesn't SOUND good at all. The codec being used absolutely sucks... sorry, but I'd rather listen to an analog FM or AM, and my young ears are working just fine. I think HD will evolve into something great someday, and eventually will adapt well to both broadcast bands... but right now the way they've designed and marketed it is just terrible. AM could rebound in an instant if you could break Clear Channel's stranglehold, crank up the power, put some appealing programming on the air, and promo the hell out of it. Everyone has an AM radio somewhere whether they know it or not; and if they really don't, give me a coffee can, a paperclip, a bubble gum wrapper and I'll find a way to make you one.

 

[blackgold]

What about the daytimers?

Here's a good question-what about those daytime only stations who must sign-off at sunset? A good number of them have 24/7 feeds on the internet.

 

[Shellanswerman]

I hope this is not a figment of my imagination, but I recall seeing a request by WEEI-AM 590 when it was owned by CBS to diplex its transmitter along with WHDH-AM 850 in Needham. At that time, I was aware that two (maybe three?) non-directional stations could simultaneously operate from one tower (WNBC-AM 660 and WCBS-AM 880 in NYC; KTW-AM 1250 in Seattle daytimes and AM 1590 daytimes, with KTW-AM signing off at sunset and AM 1590, I think the call letters then were KETO, but like AM 1150 in Boston it has gone through countless iterations of call-letters, broadcasting at night from a separate directional tower array. But this request by then WEEI-AM 590 was the first time I was informed that stations with directional arrays could diplex. So now we have WWDJ/WAZN and WUNR/WRCA/WXKS-AM.

 

[fybush]

I don't recall the old WEEI 590 applying to diplex with WHDH. They'd have had a hard time doing it because of the additional interference that would have been caused to WTAG on 580, as well as the old 25 mV/m rule that required a station to deliver a very strong 25 mV/m signal at the main post office of its city of license. (WHDH barely did it with 50 kW; no way WEEI could have done it with 5.)

Later on - we're talking 1990s now - ARS (or maybe even Entercom by then) looked at moving the WEEI 850 signal to the WRKO towers in Burlington. As with any such move, it would have been a tradeoff: a better night signal over Boston and especially the northern suburbs, at the expense of the fairly adequate coverage 850 now enjoys over much of Metro West. It was deemed not to be worth the expense, and the proposal was shelved. I can't recall if it got to the FCC construction permit stage or not.

As for diplexing AMs, the current champion is a site near St. Cloud, Minnesota with seven towers hosting four directional AMs, each with a different pattern day and night. Here, too, it's a trade-off: what you may save in the cost of land acquisition and new towers gets eaten up in the cost of the increasingly complex engineering (especially the filtering networks) needed to combine multiple directional AMs and the staffing needed to keep it all tuned up properly.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I think the only problem with AM is that Clear Channel owns all the good signals across the country.

Not even close.

A *good* AM signal can cover such a large area during the daytime, regardless of your average electrical interference.

Irrelevant. Selling ads in cities only served by skywave is a relic of the 1960's.

I think all the class C and D stations should be able to power up. Let the class C's crank up to 5k... damn the consequences. You already can't hear any of the class C's outside of their COL, so hell with it, crank it up!

I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong point. Increasing power on marginal signals only increases the noise and interference, which is one of AM's prime technical problems.

It'll keep all the DXers busy

DX'ing doesn't feed a station's employees or keep the transmitter on. This is, in case you haven't noticed, a business.