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The typical eq of 80s stations (AM & FM)

G

GeneSavage

I'm preparing to flip my internet station to all-80s, & have developed a theory that may or may not have any grounding in reality.

Although I remember 80s stations (particularly top-40 / CHRs) working hard to be loud & bright, it seems like they weren't AS bright as they are now... perhaps because of the limitations of the equipment, perhaps to avoid amplifying record noise & distortion in the upper harmonics.

However, the only 80s broadcasts I've listened to SINCE the 80s have come from cassettes of varying and often limited quality. :)

Were the stations of the 80s not pushing audio about 5 khz as hard as they are today, and if not, are the reasons I listed above the real cause?

I remember 80s stations being all over the road as far as sound, each station using a combination of off the shelf processing and often home-brewed units, creating sometimes amazing, sometimes horrifying sounds. The AM stations were all over the place, from dull & lifeless to screaming & brittle, something the NRSC curve did later help make more uniform.

Today the stations seem more uniform, pumping has disappeared (thankfully) but the stations are often crushed & brittle. In my market, to my ears there's only one really great sounding FM, the others are all fine but they're just.... crushed.

I'm using a free multiband audio processor (Sound Solution) & am finding the songs of the 80s sound more as I remember them when the total frequency response curves down about 8 db from the lower registers to the top band. Because my ears are used to the hyper-compressed, digitally clipped high frequency response of today it sounds a little dull at times, but I'm wondering if this would be easier on the ears over time and again, more like the sound coming out of a radio speaker in the 80s.

I'm also finding slower release times with deep gain reduction combined with (sloppy) slower attack times are giving that "bouncier" sound that again I remember but was likely the result of the limitations of the analog processing. (No lookahead back then!) I don't want to have it truly pumping and breathing, but my current setup has a bit more "pop" & "bite" then a technically "loud 'n clean" setting would be.

Thanks for any guidance you can offer!
 
Your gut sense is correct.

Back in 'da day, you couldn;t be as bright as you are today without the highs becoming really...um...spitty? words that started with the letter "s" would start to sound like the jock said the letter "f" when you started overdoing it.

About the best high end you could get from then came from using an Optimod 8100 as your back-end processor, and there were many variations of things folks shoved in front of the 8100 from Prisms, to Compellors, and in some cases, modified DAP 310's, etc.

Most of the high end energy came about firstly from the introduction of the CD. Before that, all of our expectations of good high end came from well mastered vinyl albums. There were definite limitations as to how much high end energy you could shove into an album, and radio pretty much followed withthat as the standard for high end. For me, to this day, that sound is still very pleasing.

When the CD came around, that limitation was totally erased, and the record companies could then shove however much high end and deep bass they wanted. As far as high end goes, they have definitely eq'ed the CD's to be annoyingly overly bright. Over time, that changed the "base line" for the expectation of good sound, and has done the same over time for radio programmers. As distortion masking and clipping techniques improved with the use of DSP technologies, broadcast processing became able to handle this kind of content, and pass it along.

Emulating this sound over the air with a DSP processor means putting on a few vinyl albums from that time period on a GOOD turntable, and matching the average spectral curve of that content. Forget about the CD's for this. Early copies were all "screwey" EQ-wise as the mastering was all wrong for CD's (They didn't exist early in that decade, and were still kind of a specialty item by '89). Also use very little clipping too. Loudness levels of that time period was MUCH lower than today...even in aggressive markets as the kind of loudness (and the signature sound you get as a result) of today wasn't possible back then.

Now, for the internet, I'd advise against using any clipping, but all this was put forth to guide you in your quest. :)

Good luck with your project!

-C
 
Another thought....

I should also add that any 80's re-issue CD's, while sounding fairly good, don;t sound like the original albums. Typically re-issues "remastered" CD's are sweetened up
to sound more like todays recordings, and that si why I suggested going back to the top of the line source material of that era (and some would argue of today too)...Vinyl...

-C
 
When CD players first were in control rooms they were consumer players. There were no matchboxes. Still, the brightness was overcoming. From a reel to reel (aargh) to a CD and you noticed the difference. We still had turntables that got some uae in the c0ntrol room. I would compare the carts as well.

I came to the conclusion that what was missing was that fine tube mastering that could be shoved to the wall and have tube distorition but not the distortion we were getting on CDs. The tube distortion actually sounded "good." It would clamp the level to a point and any overdrive of the input made the sound something you just don't hear today. The old tube compressors used on VOA had the same sound.

It would be wonderful if the tube sound could be reproduced (hint hint). Using that sound with the eq variations we ahve today compared to the old days would be wonderful.
 
boiseengineer said:
Make the EQ look like a smiley face :)
Saw that a lot.
Click to expand...

That will work if you're using the same source material of that time period, but if you have a bunch of CD's with 80's material on it, that curve will get you in trouble.

;)

-C
 
These replies are wonderful; thank you very much!

Unfortunately my sources are varying, from a digital transfer of vinyl to a CD released at the same time as the original album, to "remastered" (READ: digitally given a crew cut) tracks... clean vinyl sources for the top 100 for each year 1980 - 1989 (which is what I'm programming) can be hard to impossible to find... and you already know, if I'm using Sound Solution, I'm on a budget. 8)

I rolled off the highs a bit, which did give a very similar sound to some 80s "hit music" stations; however, after long listening I found my ears pretty fatigued (which may have been the case back in the day as well!).

What I'm doing now is continuing that high frequency roll-off on the input, then setting the threshold for each of the 5 bands one db higher than the last, starting at the bass & going up. I do that on the initial compressor, even on the expander (more expansion on the high frequency bands), the limiter, and the final two-band compressor ("density generator," or something like that).

I've also continued to back the attack times WAY off, as least way off for me. On the low end, the 1st compressor has an attack time of 40 ms! That seems crazy to me, but the music has tons of punch and has that "bouncy" (but not busy) sound I remember without pumping and breathing.

The result, & I've just been listening to it tonight so give me a few days to decide for sure, is a sound that "feels" like an 80s station, lots of control, lots of source to source consistency, fairly bright but not brittle, very open. I wouldn't call it smooth, but it can "breathe." :)

I was always a fan of the Audio Prizims in front of an 8100 with the XT-2 limiter chasis, but my favorite station at the time (1983 - 1985) was actually using the FM version of the CRL air chain. I talked to the engineer at the time (when I knew NOTHING about any if this) and one of the things he stressed was never too much gain reduction, never push anything too hard.

Using the above-listed method, I think I'm getting a pretty decent sound.

...Now, if I could just recreate that curious bass frequency response I remember the 9100 having on the big boys like 89 WLS Chicago...

(Thanks for all of your help, advice, and input!)
 
I understand you're in the preparation phase of flipping... Do you have a link you can share of what you're doing now or any testing you might be doing?
Thanks!
 
All of the testing at this point has been "in-house" (i.e. on my personal computer), but it would be fun to let you guys get a sneak listen...

Right now you can hear what I'm currently doing (which I call A.O.R.: All Over the Road radio) with my current processing which is light & smooth by going to http://www.blacklightradio.com and clicking the "listen" button. It will load Windows Media Player at the top of the page, but you can also listen to my 96kbps mp3 stream (using the latest LAME codec) using Winamp, iTunes, or any mp3-capable player. We're through Shoucast, too, so while I can't legally link to the stream, we're there if you look for us.

There's two options on how I could "pull back the curtain": one would be to switch processing & / or formats at night, or flip the same things on the weekend. We have specialty programming on the weekends & on Monday night so I'd need to let you know when it was "us," but either would be more us than syndicated programming.

Anybody have any preferences?

Two things about this processing:

#1, I'm not sure that Sound Solution can be made REALLY strong and loud (like Breakaway, for example), at least not without significant distortion. While the signal is fun & bouncy, I'd hate to try to compete on an FM stick with this. I'm quickly running into the limitations of the software.

#2, Upon further listening, my current settings strike me as perhaps more typical of 80s compression & certainly different than what I'm using now, but better? Hm-m... it's not as smooth, more jerky, perhaps more fatiguing over time. The midrange / upper midrange is more "distant" in this processing while my current processing puts the vocals front & center. Some may prefer the reduced midrange; I'm more used to my current processing of course.

I'm not sure either of these compression schemes would make a listener stand up & say "WOW!" although I've gotten plenty of compliments on my current station's settings. Chances are either of these, even varied a bit, would be perfectly acceptable to my listeners.

Another option for the board is that I could post my new Sound Solution preset & let you guys play with it on your own desktop. Who knows? The controls can drive me a little crazy (every change affects everything else up and down the chain), but one (or more) of you might be able to get it into an even "sweeter" spot. :)

SO: evenings or weekends, & do you want to see my preset?
 
I listened for a bit on Winamp with the DSP Spectrum Tool Plugin. The sound was pretty solid if not a little bright for my tastes. I was seeing some clipping on decode. You may want to back off a bit on the final output. As an aside, I've never imagined there was a dance mix to Amy Grant's Baby Baby!

I LOVE Breakaway! incredible sound and cheap!

I'd like to hear your new format/processing too at some point. Weekends would probably work out best for me.

Thanks!
 
If you want a typical 80's sound, I have an emulate Optimod 8100 preset for Sound Solution here, for Sound Solution 1.1.
 
Timmy: I'll start next weekend (12/19) running the new format (such as it is) with the new processing & see what you think.

Interesting comment on the levels! I wonder if the clipping was the audio file (some of them are "remastered" awfully hard), the input to Sound Solution (seems unlikely since this is all being done in digital on the same computer, no levels to adjust there), if I'm hitting the clippers too hard (I do have the clippers on just for final peak control, a constant source of internal debate), or if the whole output of Sound Solution is hitting my encoder (Edcast) too hard.

It's possible my whole output is too hot; I have the clippers set to catch peaks at +6 db because any lower didn't seem to give 100% output upon playback in Winamp or Windows Media Player.

(You'd think 0db is where you'd want those, wouldn't you?)

In fact, I actually began driving the clippers harder after a "golden" set of ears which shall remain unnamed unless he stumbles across this thread & wants to chime in, said I was about 6 db too low! After the boost, he said it sounded much better; who knows. :-\

I'll have to check out that Spectrum Tool plug-in... sounds pretty useful!

Erwin33, I'd be interested in that preset, although if it's the Optimod clone preset from the website, I've got it... WAY too dense for my tastes.

Sound Solution, when pushed too hard, instead of getting that dense crunch analog distortion, gets more of an (as you would expect) digital "fuzz," especially in the highs. The image becomes blurred, the notes indistinct. It's hard to "push" it like you might an analog compressor; instead it is fairly accurate, until it turns to noise.

That's one of the reasons I'm a fan of Breakway... you can push it to insane levels and #1 it's surprisingly clean for being set on "jet airplane," ;D and #2 any distortion has an analog "feel" to it, a meatier, gutsier "grunt" as you push it to the max.

One of these days, I sure hope to get it... in the meantime, Sound Solution does a decent job. Sent a demo mp3 to a friend who's a fan of 80s radio, & he went bezerk... which felt pretty good:

...Dude... this sounds awesome!!!!!

Similar to what I remember from the 80's. Not quite as crunched. But every bit as energetic. Good punch. Maybe even a bit clearer than it was in the 80's. On this file, I can hear instruments I didn't know were there when I listened in the 80's.

Nice job. The gurgle doesn't invade bad at all.

Dude...the BGV's on these files really POP. I don't recall hearing the BGV's so clearly on the REO Speedwagon tune.

Wow. I wanna listen to this station!!!!! Throw some killer imaging in and it'll be awesome...
Click to expand...

Alas, the "killer imaging" will have to wait for now, as well... it all takes $. But I'll do some "homemade" IDs to throw in now & again.

Thanks again for all the help and opinions! I'll be curious to see if this board is impressed with what I've come up with, or after listening, will be confused as to what the hype was about. :)
 
Don't know if it is the preset from Sound Solution. When you want 80's style sound you have density sound. All stations in the 80's sounds very compressed and have wide stereo. For example Z100 New York City in the 80's. They also using Optimods, Unity's and Omnia at last.
 
erwin33, I'll agree that many 80s stations pushed it pretty hard; the problem is Sound Solution doesn't sound like the Optimod or Omnia (Or Compellor & Dominator, or CRL) when you try to slam it. It reminds me of ONE station I heard in the 80s: a CCM rimshot that was using something... cheap... for their processing, and whatever they had brought up the echo and reverb in the songs they played but didn't create a thick meaty sound (or increase loudness much, IMHO).

I'm using a local "hot hits" station from 1985 as a sort of model, and they used the CRL chain. The engineer told me you never use TOO much gain, and after learning a bit, I think he was talking more about high compression ratios and fast releases... although I've got the initial multiband AGC set with a pretty high compression ratio (5:1), the slow attack and slow release are keeping the sound fairly open but jumpy at the same time. The muiltband limiters following catch just a handful of peaks, and what was designed as a "density" dual-band following, I'm using as a final limiter (before lightly hitting the clippers).

I listen to my local hot AC, and they stomp the life out of their 80s cuts, to the point I don't even enjoy listening to them on the radio anymore... that tells me that monster compression does NOT automatically equal that "big 80s" sound I remember. The disadvantage of slow analog attack times was an advantage when it came to keeping the music rhythmic & lively.

One problem with "Optimod" presets is that the Optimod sounded different depending on how you set it. It was hard to make it sound HORRIBLE without modifying it, but you could run it faithful & open all the way up to tight & punchy (as punchy as it got; it was designed for quality more than quantity). The "Optimod" presets I have all chain the bands together too much for my tastes; I remember 80s stations using multiband compression to re-eq on the fly! Things like Kansas' "Carry On Wayward Son" sucking up the "click click click" bass of the piano keys being played in the opening section (after the big intro). It likely drove engineers crazy at the time, but now that's how the era is remembered.

Another problem with density in an mp3 stream is that the encoder is looking for sound to throw away. The more densely packed that sound is, the harder a time it has figuring out what to discard and therefore is more likely to jettison something important.

Having said all that, I WOULD be interested in hearing your preset; can you upload it somewhere I can grab it?

You also mentioned stereo enhancement, and I'm of two minds on that as well. I can't remember who-all had stereo enhancement, although it was certainly out there. The 8100 came without, but Orban sold a standalone unit which got mixed reviews. StereoMaxx was the big one, as I remember... I still have a demo tape from them somewhere, and the results were startling. I can't remember if CRL had stereo expansion or not.. sometimes it's hard to tell if they were using stereo expansion, or just lots of compression.

As a rule, I like to run without any stereo enhancement at all, but I'm currently listening to the stereo expansion on Sound Solution, wide open. There are elements of this that sound "right," but it feels like I've lost a little "control" on the compression, it's not as tight anymore (I think expansion is post-compression but pre-clippers), and I feel like I've lost some bass.

Additionally, some of my sources are unfortunately lossy, and the expansion takes what might have been minor artifacts & shines a huge spotlight on them. The same thing I suspect would be true to listeners to my stream: my tolerable 96kbps stream stream could easily become intolerable as there's less content joint stereo algorithms can take advantage of to save bytes here and there. I've afraid stereo expansion would work against, rather than for, me... but I'm keeping it in mind and may do some in-stream testing.

I appreciate the feedback and input, and even though I've concerns about both of these ideas, that doesn't mean I'm not still considering it, toying with the settings, and open to other ideas and perspectives.

In other words, thank you for your guidance, whether I use it or not! ;D
 
Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I'm moderately happy with the processing now, & would be curious to know if any have listened & if so, what you think? Have I captured the spirit, if not the letter, of 80s audio processing?

http://loudcity.com/stations/blacklight-radio/tune_in

If it asks you "high or low bandwidth," answer whatever you want; we only have one, 96 kbps feed. There's no login required to listen, no fees, etc.

If you DON'T like the sound of the station, I'd like to hear why... maybe you can help me improve it! I'd love to hear your impressions in general; does it sound like any particular processing chain to you? Any particular station, or any particular market?
 
The sound is nice, but yes, increase the final output a bit. You've got plenty of room there. Otherwise, real nice!
 
Thanks for the kind words! Actually, it's my own, home-brew "preset," which I could upload if anybody wants to deconstruct it, maybe tweak it.

I'm not sure the levels can be brought up further; I could hit the final limiters harder, but the clippers are set to catch anything past +6 db & show occasional 1 db - 2 db of actually clipping taking place. The output is then set to 100%... I wonder where else I could turn it up?

One possibility: were you listening with the embedded Windows Media Player on the page? for some reason the embedded player always defaults to 75%. If that's the case, well... trying turning it up! :) Launching your own media player from one of the links should have the same effect.

If that's NOT it, does anybody have any suggestions on how I can boost the output of Sound Solution? I'm using it to feed the Oddcast encoder (which doesn't appear to have a level control). The meters on the encoder are somewhat general in nature, but appear to show me getting close to 0 db output on peaks... what am I missing, I wonder?

Thank you so much for the feedback; I welcome any and all suggestions!

UPDATE: OK, watching the Oddcast encoder meters, I noticed as I hit the clippers harder, it drives it into a "red zone" which obviously equals 0 db (actually there are about 3 red segment, light, med & dark red). By hitting those clippers about 2 db harder I think I'm getting closer to 100% "modulation."

Psychologically, it bugs me to hit those clippers that hard (especially since I don't think they're distortion-canceled, look-ahead, or anything else), but the fact that I have to drive them harder to get 100% output makes wonder how much they really ARE clippers. If they were similar to diodes, wouldn't they just be a brick wall?

...Unless the meters are reading RMS instead of peaks? I dunno! Anyway, you might take a second listen & see if that's any better.

Again, the help is GREATLY appreciated.
 
I'm copy and past the link in my Screamer-Radio player and I'm not listening to the windows media player on the website. To make the sound of your stream louder it's not a question of tweaking Sound Solution but checking the output from the stream encoder.
 
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