There's background noise in my signal.

[Mike Walker]

Savage is probably right (about WCBS not being the culprit, as they're 20khz away). But the recording was made on an SRF-A100. Those suckers are WIDE! My wife, who has a dog's hearing, got really agitated at me because of the 10khz "whine" on an mp3 bill sent me. Yes, I heard it, after she pointed it out, but it was no big deal. To her (and apparently my dog), it was a VERY big deal. As they say here in the foothills of NC, "Them Sonys is WIDE!"

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Savage is probably right (about WCBS not being the culprit, as they're 20khz away). But the recording was made on an SRF-A100. Those suckers are WIDE! My wife, who has a dog's hearing, got really agitated at me because of the 10khz "whine" on an mp3 bill sent me. Yes, I heard it, after she pointed it out, but it was no big deal. To her (and apparently my dog), it was a VERY big deal. As they say here in the foothills of NC, "Them Sonys is WIDE!"

But - an SRF-A100, being a C-Quam stereo receiver, also employs product detection instead of envelope detection. Therefore, it is more effective at eliminating IBOC hash as documented by other posters. And yes, AM stereo radios have wide IF bandwidth. But they also employ multiple stage IF ceramic filters that have very fast roll-off above 10 kHz - so they are wide just where they need to be and reject 2nd and further adjacents better than most radios.

Incidentally, if you want to get rid of that heterodyne: http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt235/slyt235.pdf I get rid of one of the worst heterodynes in the country - the heterodyne in Dallas from WOAI on adjacent KFXR. In the 4 years since I constructed the circuit, I haven't had to touch it since. Now if I can just design a filter to get rid of the ____ IBOC hash!!!!

 

[Tom Wells]

Left from work today at 5:05 CST and WLS was iBOC free. It was a joy to listen to, and the contrast between WLS
and WGN/WSCR/WBBM was dramatic. Even greater contrast with 1300 HDisney, which is the old "to puke for" AM HD.

I maintain the big 4 AMs had SOMETHING applied or adjusted so I can hear percussive and sibilant info, and the hiss is cleaner.

I wonder if this was a test, or if WLS has realized that for them, critical hours begin at 16:00?

Even during the day hours when iBOC is on, WLS wins the " I can hear you best" award.
Excellent job of crisp intelligibility compared to the first days. Sounds great near and far.
Well, as good as it can with the hiss, which I swear is cleaner since august.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

You have an amazing sounding station!

The SRF-A100 was my favorite AM Stereo radio. I had one until it disappeared one day.

Mike W4DXL

I appreciate everyone's comments and ideas. We are working on it. In contrast, here is another audio clip for you. This one was recorded a little earlier in the day on Sept. 25. There's much less of the hiss. This is a better example of what the AM Stereo really can do for a station. It was recorded under the same circumstances as the previous audio. It's a Sony SRF A-100 sitting in our studio and its output goes to one of our computers where it was recorded on SAW. No effects were used in the SAW program; it's just the straight audio from the Sony.
This one is a jingle and a full song, which does a good job highlighting the Stereo separation.

http://www.waynesweb.com/WNMB92507.mp3

 

[Tom Wells]

Update: WLS is running iBOC this evening, don't know when they turned it on.

A quick check with my Sangean 803 in narrow revealed immediately what I thought I've heard.
They seem to have grouped all the digital sidebands closer in together, running from 10 khz to 17 khz out.
I am not hearing ANY significant digital info until 9 to 10 khz off carrier (BFO on makes this transparent).
I guess I could be wrong.
WDisney AM 1300 is on the air, but way too weak to even tell if the HD is on, let alone check spectral distribution.

 

[tomservo]

My wife, who has a dog's hearing, got really agitated at me because of the 10khz "whine" on an mp3 bill sent me. Yes, I heard it, after she pointed it out, but it was no big deal. To her (and apparently my dog), it was a VERY big deal. As they say here in the foothills of NC, "Them Sonys is WIDE!"

Dang. That whine gave me a headache. I dropped the 16kHz slides on my EQ down as far as they would go and that helped, but not much. :-[

Otherwise, a really good sounding station. Whine aside, I could listen to this station day and night - no "loudness wars" fatigue!

Mike, not to threadjack, but do you have a sample of your noise I could download? I have a security system and DSL in house and could compare it to the destruction those two things put on AM/SW around here.

 

[Len14043]

Update: WLS is running iBOC this evening, don't know when they turned it on.

A quick check with my Sangean 803 in narrow revealed immediately what I thought I've heard.
They seem to have grouped all the digital sidebands closer in together, running from 10 khz to 17 khz out.
I am not hearing ANY significant digital info until 9 to 10 khz off carrier (BFO on makes this transparent).
I guess I could be wrong.
WDisney AM 1300 is on the air, but way too weak to even tell if the HD is on, let alone check spectral distribution.

Tom,
When in Chicago before IBOC, WLW was receivable during the day except when within 5 miles of WSCR and WGN. In fact, they were quite listenable in the downtown area and near I-80. Can they still be heard with 670 and 720 running IBOC?

 

[Mike Walker]

Zach, I'm not sure what you mean by a "sample of my noise". I would assume you meant the mp3 from WNMB, but you've obviously heard that. Let me know exactly what you're referring to, and I'd be happy to accomodate.

As for the audibility of the 10khz, my computer speakers take a slow rolloff above 10khz hetrodyne, unlike lots of speakers. When I played the clip through my Energy C3 speakers, HELLO! It was then as audible to me as to my dog, and wife (not necessarily in that order). Not WNMB's fault, of course. There's a reason that many of the best wideband am tuners through the years had a 10khz notch filter. I had an old Bogen (yes Bogen!) tube "high fidelity" tuner about 30 years ago that was VERY wide, but had a tunable notch filter. Just find a station where the 10khz hetrodyne was obvious, center tune that sucker as much as possible (in narrow bandwidth mode, of course), open it up to wide, and tune the filter until the 10khz went away.

 

[w9wi]

Hold the First Phone: isn't WNMB on 900 kHz? WCBS shouldn't be a factor with IBOC as second-adjacent.

Well, IBOC does extend halfway into the second adjacent channel - in WCBS' case, from 885-895KHz. (though apparently WCBS hasn't been running theirs at night)

 

[w9wi]

WCBS AM has not been running their IBOC at night due to Yankees game broadcasts. WRKL, 910 Khz tried to take on WCBS with an FCC filing. WCBS proved that they are totally within the law and caused no interferenece to the WRKL signal within their protected area. What is funny is that in a metro area the size of NYC WRKL is trying to serve

30KHz away, huh... someone didn't bother to look at the specs -- or even listen on a decent receiver... 5-15KHz on the top side & 5-15KHz on the bottom, pretty obvious when monitored on a communications receiver. Not going to cause any problems 30KHz off unless there's something REALLY wrong at the transmitter - and if that happened at WCBS we'd know about it...

A better answer to people who are experiencing noise is to contact their local utility company. Provide as much

Never say never, but that recording really doesn't sound like utility noise to me.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Hold the First Phone: isn't WNMB on 900 kHz? WCBS shouldn't be a factor with IBOC as second-adjacent.

Well, IBOC does extend halfway into the second adjacent channel - in WCBS' case, from 885-895KHz. (though apparently WCBS hasn't been running theirs at night)

WCBS Is running IBOC at night prior to and post the Yankee games. I was driving to work this morning at 2 AM and other than my local 50 KW IBOC stations there was no noise on any first adjacent frequency, even though there are about a dozen night time IBOC's I can see at home (stations who cause my HD light to flicker). WBT is now running HD post sunset by the way.

 

[hipporadio]

I was driving to work this morning at 2 AM and other than my local 50 KW IBOC stations there was no noise on any first adjacent frequency...

WHO—GONE; WBZ—GONE also [due to their mutual lack of common-sense] – as is KDKA... WLS/WCBS, WCCO/WHAS, and WLW/WOR—again GONE due to cluster-coatis... And now WTAM courtesy of WBT [whose signal in Charleston has been nothing to boast-about recently]. IN-FACT, those “nothing to boast-about” signals seem-now to make themselves known ONLY-because of the IBOC hash they spread to their neighbors. Imagine a less-than-dependable virtually-useless signal whose remaining mission in life is to make TWO others just as useless... You’ve just discovered the irrefutable-reality of post-sunset IBOC :

I’m sorry to antagonize... [NO – I’m NOT!] But when an alleged “broadcast engineer”, functioning at a mental-level hopefully-beyond retardation, proclaims [on this board] that at 2AM the ONLY IBOC-induced interference he hears is from stations LOCAL to his listening locale; I can only conclude that this “professional” and his camaraderie are hopelessly-hooked on the “Kool Aide” and/or absorbed into the self-interest of those seeking their-own shameful gratification!

And the “HD Radio” SHILLS told us that IBOC was on its way to rescue the AM Band It has arrived to render EVERY AM receiver in my possession nearly-USELESS after sun-set! Non-debatable is its wrath and potential for ruin! It is simply “OVER” for the AM Band if this pariah conceived in narrow self-interest is allowed to continue its toddler-like mess-making from the kitchen high-chair! For goodness sake – WHEN are the lawsuits going to commence... I want my Court TV!

 

[clouseau]

WHO—GONE

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WBZ—GONE

Skywave & out of market at your locale

KDKA...

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WLS

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WCBS,

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WCCO

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WHAS

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WLW

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WOR

Skywave & out of market at your locale

WTAM

Skywave & out of market at your locale
courtesy of WBT [whose signal in Charleston has been nothing to boast-about recently].

I’m sorry to antagonize... [NO – I’m NOT!] But when an alleged “broadcast engineer”, functioning at a mental-level hopefully-beyond retardation, proclaims [on this board] that at 2AM the ONLY IBOC-induced interference he hears is from stations LOCAL to his listening locale; I can only conclude that this “professional” and his camaraderie are hopelessly-hooked on the “Kool Aide” and/or absorbed into the self-interest of those seeking their-own shameful gratification!

Actually, you could conclude that he is listening to the radio like... A listener. Not a DXer, but an average guy driving down the freeway at 2 AM.

And the “HD Radio” SHILLS told us that IBOC was on its way to rescue the AM Band It has arrived to render EVERY AM receiver in my possession nearly-USELESS after sun-set!

Sorry, I will not drop down to the "Shill", "Beyond-retardation","Shameful Gratification" level. What I will do is point out that virtually ALL listening on AM is VERY local.

the Non-debatable is its wrath and potential for ruin! It is simply “OVER” for the AM Band if this pariah conceived in narrow self-interest is allowed to continue its toddler-like mess-making from the kitchen high-chair!

I only know one other broadcast person who uses the word "WRATH"

For goodness sake – WHEN are the lawsuits going to commence... I want my Court TV!

It is interesting that 2 weeks have passed and so far nothing I have seen.

I see Leonard Kahn's Monday deadline passed without incident.

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

You can't launch a lawsuit over interference allegations spanning two weeks. It's too soon. In the practice of law this is called "ripeness" of the claim. There is no way any station could allege significant economic injury in this brief elapsed time of nighttime IBOC operation.

Besides, stations which are being hurt by the adjacent-channel interference need time to accumulate data and evidence to form the basis for complaints, legal or administrative.

What IS significant, Hippo-bud and Clouseauster: the roaring silence from the august industry pub Radio World. I was cringing as I opened this week's issue, expecting some Tom Rayesque glad-handing headline like, "HD-AM Nighttime Problems Not As Bad As Predicted!!"

Instead, I found two decidedly downbeat editorial (as opposed to "Reader's Forum" columns or letters-to-the-editor) comments about HD-AM. One was Editor Paul McLane's p. 4 piece, "Digital Delight or Digital Doom?" carefully constructed as a quoted letter from a "friend of RW, not for attribution" (OF COURSE!!! Why would any industry notable want to comment negatively and publicly about IBOC?) The salient point of this quoted correspondence, which went on for about 20 column-inches, was the opening line: "Though they're mostly standing in the wings, there is a growing tide of those who think that IBOC (AM) is a big mistake." There followed a long discussion of the massive first-adjacent-problem-skywave problem everyone except R. F. and Clouseau seem to be able to hear.

The second was buried in the inside-back-page "Opinion" sidebar, no byline except "RW," heartily approving of the likely passage of Petition For Rulemaking 07-172 permitting AM stations to apply for FM translators. The fifth 'graph states: "The jury is still out on AM IBOC, but even if it is successful, the technical limitations of the IBOC standard on AM....are significant...."

It is remarkable that this early into the AM IBOC nighttime experiment - and that's is precisely what it is - that a respected industry publication like RW is sounding this tone.

By the way - I don't know what listening conditions some of the posters here are experiencing. I can tell you that here in Upstate New York, it is unanimous among half a dozen experienced radio engineers I talk to regularly, with CC, Entercom and others: the entire midband from 1000 to 1130 is an unlistenable mess at night. And from what I hear, that's pretty much the way it is in the midwest and far west too.

 

[clouseau]

You can't launch a lawsuit over interference allegations spanning two weeks. It's too soon. In the practice of law this is called "ripeness" of the claim. There is no way any station could allege significant economic injury in this brief elapsed time of nighttime IBOC operation.

Besides, stations which are being hurt by the adjacent-channel interference need time to accumulate data and evidence to form the basis for complaints, legal or administrative.

What IS significant, Hippo-bud and Clouseauster: the roaring silence from the august industry pub Radio World. I was cringing as I opened this week's issue, expecting some Tom Rayesque glad-handing headline like, "HD-AM Nighttime Problems Not As Bad As Predicted!!"

Instead, I found two decidedly downbeat editorial (as opposed to "Reader's Forum" columns or letters-to-the-editor) comments about HD-AM. One was Editor Paul McLane's p. 4 piece, "Digital Delight or Digital Doom?" carefully constructed as a quoted letter from a "friend of RW, not for attribution" (OF COURSE!!! Why would any industry notable want to comment negatively and publicly about IBOC?) The salient point of this quoted correspondence, which went on for about 20 column-inches, was the opening line: "Though they're mostly standing in the wings, there is a growing tide of those who think that IBOC (AM) is a big mistake." There followed a long discussion of the massive first-adjacent-problem-skywave problem everyone except R. F. and Clouseau seem to be able to hear.

The second was buried in the inside-back-page "Opinion" sidebar, no byline except "RW," heartily approving of the likely passage of Petition For Rulemaking 07-172 permitting AM stations to apply for FM translators. The fifth 'graph states: "The jury is still out on AM IBOC, but even if it is successful, the technical limitations of the IBOC standard on AM....are significant...."

It is remarkable that this early into the AM IBOC nighttime experiment - and that's is precisely what it is - that a respected industry publication like RW is sounding this tone.

By the way - I don't know what listening conditions some of the posters here are experiencing. I can tell you that here in Upstate New York, it is unanimous among half a dozen experienced radio engineers I talk to regularly, with CC, Entercom and others: the entire midband from 1000 to 1130 is an unlistenable mess at night. And from what I hear, that's pretty much the way it is in the midwest and far west too.

Savagemeister,

Like the lack of time for the legal angle, the lack of time for RW is even worse. They run a good ways behind. My guess is they may not have much on nighttime AMHD even in the NEXT issue.

I guess as I read McLane's editorial, I read it to be much more about bad marketing and iability to "Push it over the transome". I do see the downward feel to the piece, but I also would bet it was written prior to Sept 14th. I would agree with you that the lack of meaningful response on both sides means... well, just that so far there is not a meaningful response.

It would be foolish for wither side of the issue to claim victory. (Or maybe even an advantage).

Clouseau

 

[Tom Wells]

Update: WLS is running iBOC this evening, don't know when they turned it on.

A quick check with my Sangean 803 in narrow revealed immediately what I thought I've heard.
They seem to have grouped all the digital sidebands closer in together, running from 10 khz to 17 khz out.
I am not hearing ANY significant digital info until 9 to 10 khz off carrier (BFO on makes this transparent).
I guess I could be wrong.
WDisney AM 1300 is on the air, but way too weak to even tell if the HD is on, let alone check spectral distribution.

Tom,
When in Chicago before IBOC, WLW was receivable during the day except when within 5 miles of WSCR and WGN. In fact, they were quite listenable in the downtown area and near I-80. Can they still be heard with 670 and 720 running IBOC?

WSCR has not been running it at night, but WGN alone is enough to render WLW unlistenable. You might be able catch a baseball score,
but you couldn't stand to listen for a baseball inning.

AM 750 in Portage Indiana, 55 miles away from here is sandwiched between 720 and 780 iBOCs.
When perfectly center tuned, they now have a "sparkle" added to their audio running 16,000 to 2?,000 hz.

It reminds me of early FM radios when the 19khz pilot went right to the speaker.

 

[hipporadio]

Sorry, I will not drop down to the "Shill", "Beyond-retardation", "Shameful Gratification" level.

But you had NO PROBLEM recently “dropping down” to the level of calling a longtime-respected and accomplished large-market PD of a heritage and legendary AOR station “an idiot”.

http://gormanmediablog.blogspot.com/2007/09/halif-dead-radio.html

"What’s the QVC business plan? Dazzle the rubes to separate them from their cash"

Great Take, Gorman... What an idiot.

What color is the POT calling the KETTLE? BLACK? ...Possibly [and unfortunately] a disappearing financial term for those unfortunate-enough to suffer THE WRATH of YOUR-OWN self-interest, Good Inspector!

WHO—GONE

Skywave & out of market at your locale...
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ETC! :

Oh I see... FINE! so let’s throw out the proposition that these 50kW Class-A AMs just throttle-down to 10kw at sun-set – since their dreaded skywave service is now so-very passé... Or maybe we can “shoe-horn” a hundred more Savage-style stations into the bog [‘just being cynical, Bob ]. Better yet – how about a nice power-bump or relaxed protection requirement for Mr. Savage’s WYSL so he can “fight back” the trash—OH I’m sorry—“DIGITAL AUDIO STREAM”—chock-full of a band-saving 16 kbps that resembles RealAudio via dial-up in 1998... ‘Talk about “passé” : I’m getting so-very tired of the FCC re-writing the rules without REALLY re-writing them—leaving the historic priorities in print so the likes of CCU can disregard them and guys like clouseau can mimic-then-mock them!

...Non-debatable is its wrath and potential for ruin! It is simply “OVER” for the AM Band if this pariah conceived in narrow self-interest is allowed to continue its toddler-like mess-making from the kitchen high-chair!

I only know one other broadcast person who uses the word "WRATH"...

...And Team-iNiquity comes out swingin’ again – tantrum #2 - and another low-blow at their favorite ole’ punching bag, Leonard Kahn... You know HE’S the cause of everything related to the evitable judgment awaiting “HD Radio” by ALL 150,000,000 of his trained-minions in the marketplace

I couldn’t have imagined Mr. Brusstar’s failure to genuinely-appreciate a cogent follow-up from the opposite perspective; and his wish for competent balance was granted by the appearance of The Good Inspector [clouseau], who patiently-waited over a half-hour on-hold for his opportunity. Frankly, many of those feebly-apologetic toward IBOC here would be well-served to just recline, kick their computer keyboard trays back under the desk, and allow HIM to carry their torch!

I’m wondering... Does the T.O.S. at R-I allow one to change his mind? I understand... You’d never think-it by reading some of the threads here!

 

[IFB64]

The examples cited above all refer to the signal as "Skywave & out of market at your locale...
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ETC! "

Here's one. WSB-AM, 4mV/m GROUNDWAVE.....while not "gone" is unlistenable because of WJR-760's IBOC.

North of Atlanta, in a county where Arbitron drops more than a few diaries!

It ain't gonna work.

 

[clouseau]

But you had NO PROBLEM recently “dropping down” to the level of calling a longtime-respected and accomplished large-market PD of a heritage and legendary AOR station “an idiot”.

Yep. Stupid statement and broadsweeping generalization of viewers as "Rubes" = Idiot. No apology here.

What color is the POT calling the KETTLE? BLACK? ...Possibly [and unfortunately] a disappearing financial term for those unfortunate-enough to suffer THE WRATH of YOUR-OWN self-interest, Good Inspector!

Yeah right. HD is running me out of business. Respectfully, check my sig. I make no apologies

WHO—GONE
Skywave & out of market at your locale...
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ETC! :

Oh I see... FINE! so let’s throw out the proposition that these 50kW Class-A AMs just throttle-down to 10kw at sun-set – since their dreaded skywave service is now so-very passé... Or maybe we can “shoe-horn” a hundred more Savage-style stations into the bog [‘just being cynical, Bob ]. Better yet – how about a nice power-bump or relaxed protection requirement for Mr. Savage’s WYSL so he can “fight back” the trash—OH I’m sorry—“DIGITAL AUDIO STREAM”—chock-full of a band-saving 16 kbps that resembles RealAudio via dial-up in 1998... ‘Talk about “passé” : I’m getting so-very tired of the FCC re-writing the rules without REALLY re-writing them—leaving the historic priorities in print so the likes of CCU can disregard them and guys like clouseau can mimic-then-mock them!

Look, let's try to get back to a level of civility here. I can understand that a few people may be angry about the loss of skywave. We've pretty much killed a lot of it with overpopulation of the band anyway. A station like WYSL would not have been allowed years ago. Thanks to a decision that WHO was not needed in New York State, WYSL got Night time life. And that's a good thing IMHO.

...And Team-iNiquity comes out swingin’ again – tantrum #2 - and another low-blow at their favorite ole’ punching bag, Leonard Kahn... You know HE’S the cause of everything related to the evitable judgment awaiting “HD Radio” by ALL 150,000,000 of his trained-minions in the marketplace

Y'know. This is probably the second most tired take of all time behind Dick Vitale's, Baby.

I don't have anything to do with Ibiquity aside from knowing how to spell it and frankly, I can't even get Kitsa Lee to asnwer my emails. I am not "Team Ibiquity. Never have been. Bagdad Bob repeated the same type of crud over and over. Yoer assertion about me is no different. To call me "Team Iniquity" merely makes you look foolish to those who know me.

I couldn’t have imagined Mr. Brusstar’s failure to genuinely-appreciate a cogent follow-up from the opposite perspective; and his wish for competent balance was granted by the appearance of The Good Inspector [clouseau], who patiently-waited over a half-hour on-hold for his opportunity. Frankly, many of those feebly-apologetic toward IBOC here would be well-served to just recline, kick their computer keyboard trays back under the desk, and allow HIM to carry their torch!

I’m wondering... Does the T.O.S. at R-I allow one to change his mind? I understand... You’d never think-it by reading some of the threads here!
[/quote]

George and Bob have been very respectful and I have communicated with one of these gentlemen on an unrelated topic off list and they are decent people. It might annoy you, but I'm a decent guy too. Beleive it or not, I don't care. The station I run has more live local programming than any other station in the market. We take food off CCU's plate everyday. I don't apologize for what I believe. Neither do Bob or George.

Keeping in mind I work 6+ days a week and have 24 hour responsibility... Lighten up. It's only radio...

Clouseau

 

[wnmb]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed ideas here. As someone posted, it is far too early to blame any specific thing. We are in a process of study and elimination. The hiss I wrote about is not always present in the evening or night. We are now keeping a log. We are starting with our own audio and rf chain in the process as well. We are not looking to confront or sue anyone. We are just looking to do the best we can with the resources we have. We've put lots of money (for us) and lots of care into developing our station as a good choice in its community and we take a great deal of pride in how well it has been accepted. We are proud of our programming (within our ability), and we hope to be around for a long time. Today, when we are faced with increasing numbers of very cheaply made AM receivers, we are very judicious to present the best quality we can do. On one other note here, yes, be civil with each other even when you disagree. Life is short. Bill