This is not your father's 50-something

[fred flintstone]

Dear Anycat,

I've been re-reading your some of your recent posts. The problem is you are a typical, an exception rather than the rule. You are an early adopter at a point in life when people often stay with what they know. A guy who wants a red convertible when most guys go for the big blue Buick sedan.

Advertisers go by statistics. Mazda Miata's agency will buy CHR or sports because they have a big percentage of listeners who are guys who want red convertibles. On an oldies stations, the percentage of guys who want a red convertible is much lower. That makes the cost to reach 1000 prospective red convertible buyers much higher and the return on investment much lower. Radio is a mass medium, although sometimes it seems very personal to the listener. It's all about statistics, not individuals.

Don't take it personal. I don't know what kind of business you are in but I imagine in your field when they are hunting they "go where the ducks" or where the fish are biting.

Hope you are enjoying XM. I grew up in Detroit and I'm looking forward to the salute to "The Big 8," CKLW Friday afternoon and evening on 60s on 6. They do a different Top 40 station each Friday. The one you grew up with will be along sooner or later.

 

[Anyacat]

Dear Anycat,

I've been re-reading your some of your recent posts. The problem is you are a typical, an exception rather than the rule. You are an early adopter at a point in life when people often stay with what they know. A guy who wants a red convertible when most guys go for the big blue Buick sedan.

Advertisers go by statistics. Mazda Miata's agency will buy CHR or sports because they have a big percentage of listeners who are guys who want red convertibles. On an oldies stations, the percentage of guys who want a red convertible is much lower. That makes the cost to reach 1000 prospective red convertible buyers much higher and the return on investment much lower. Radio is a mass medium, although sometimes it seems very personal to the listener. It's all about statistics, not individuals.

Don't take it personal. I don't know what kind of business you are in but I imagine in your field when they are hunting they "go where the ducks" or where the fish are biting.

Hope you are enjoying XM. I grew up in Detroit and I'm looking forward to the salute to "The Big 8," CKLW Friday afternoon and evening on 60s on 6. They do a different Top 40 station each Friday. The one you grew up with will be along sooner or later.

Dear Fred:
I've always been the curious sort, and I think I was born into just the right generation to be the curious sort. I don't think I am atypical, rather, I think I am like a lot of people my age, we are used to a certain excellence as our elephant moves through the boa of life, moving and changing all before it. Statistics can be made to prove anything and in this instance I am convinced the statistics are based on old data. Part of my problem, and it is my problem, is that I am very much opposed on a philosophical and very real level to the way the industry has changed in the past decade. But that aside, tilting at windmills is what I, and maybe many of my generation, do best--and sometimes we win. I have never settled for the status, especially if it is the quo--but we wait, patiently for the rest of the world to catch on: We ain't your dad's 50 something (that's the reason the Levi people has a line of jeans for the "older" body).

 

[fred flintstone]

Interesting. I do recall Levis on Top 40 radio, and on progressive rock (underground) stations. Are they buying Oldies radio for their "older body" Jeans?

 

[Anyacat]

Interesting. I do recall Levis on Top 40 radio, and on progressive rock (underground) stations. Are they buying Oldies radio for their "older body" Jeans?

I don't know about radio, but they did a big TV campaign when the line was introduced, maybe no ad agency thought to ask them, or maybe they think it's a dead medium, or maybe their product sells without a lot of advertising (although, in all honesty, I am not brand loyal when it comes to jeans, what fits and what's comfortable and, often, what's on sale does it for me)

 

[fred flintstone]

Part of the equation may be there are not a lot of ways to reach young people - then and now.
Back in the day, Top 40 and progressive rock radio were the medium of choice to sell young Baby Boomers. TV, newspapers and magazines were expensive and most of the money was wasted because you had all those old people watching.
Now, ad agencies may still find TV, magazines and newspapers better for selling old Baby Boomers. And so that's where they put their bucks for old body jeans, not radio.
It may be that ad agencies do want to sell old people, they just don't think radio is the way to do it. And even if an advertiser considers radio, Oldies radio may not be the format chosen for selling old Boomers. The majority of 55 to 64 year old listeners are listening to Talk, AC and Country (Oldies places 6th - also behind Hispanic and Urban formats - with less than a seven per cent share in that age range). Among 65+ listeners, talk alone gets a more than four out of 10 listeners. And AC, Country, Religion, Hispanic and Urban also beat both Oldies and Standards.
If I wanted to sell old body Jeans or even Metamucil, I don't know I'd buy radio. And if I bought radio, I don't know that I'd buy Oldies. Talk radio gives you more involved listeners and identification of the product with the personality; AM Top 40 used to offer that, most Oldies radio does not.

 

[semoochie]

I know it wasn't the central point and don't want to dwell on it but since when did CHR become a male skewing format? Was the info that placed Oldies as sixth among 55-64 year olds taken while it was still a major FM format or just recently?

 

[fred flintstone]

According to Katz Radio, the CHR audience averages 63 per cent female; 37 per cent of male, with about one-half of listeners under 45.

The format share rankings I mentioned are from the Arbitron Spring 2006 book (Arbitron: American Radio Listening Trends). Oldies audience share among 50+ listeners has been decreasing (numbers available go back eight years). At it's peak, Oldies still trailed Talk and AC.

 

[radiofriend1]

I know it wasn't the central point and don't want to dwell on it but since when did CHR become a male skewing format? Was the info that placed Oldies as sixth among 55-64 year olds taken while it was still a major FM format or just recently?

really.......oldies was never a "MAJOR" fm format--- it's always been a niche format that just happened to get big numbers for awhile, particularly in more traditional markets. few big successes in the SE, really......never kicked big in miami, atlanta (OK in tampa but mostly very recently), houston & dallas were always lousy.

cleveland, pittsburgh, detroit, NYC, Baltimore...............oldies never huge in chicago, sf, san diego, OK from time to time in la about 10 yrs ago.

 

[OldiesCat]

the oldies drone

Isn't it ironic how few of our fellow Oldies freaks understand that if Oldies was that valuable a format, that big a true money-maker, that all our purported money-hungry corporate radio giants would have brought it back by now (or would have at least replaced the stations that got flipped with their own versions of a format).

I love Oldies (done right) but for most, cats, it is over, sorry to say.

 

[LeChat]

I'm new to this forum and I have read all 11 pages of this thread. If I understand the issue correctly, manufacturers make decisions about to whom they will market their products and some age groups are not on the list. But the demographic seems to have changed, the baby boomers are not the same over-50s that their parents were. And yet ad agencies, who also make decisions about what we will hear, seem to cling to what might be outmoded ideas about buying habits. Finally, radio stations, who depend on sales performance to determine format, want to make more money so the oldies format is dead. When someone ditches a format because it does not earn enough, is the "enough" ever defined? I mean, maybe there is no enough. Maybe the format earns but it cannot earn the illusive enough. Maybe the oldies format will return as the demographic ages or maybe there will never be enough. But what I find interesting is that the demographic has changed and yet manufacturers and ad agencies cling to an old concept of what people of a certain age will buy. The concept of oldies may also change. Right now, it seems to encompass first generation rock. But the boom-boom disco sound if not already an oldie will soon be an oldie. And for this oldie, that's one genre I would be happy never to hear again.

 

[fred flintstone]

I'm new to this forum and I have read all 11 pages of this thread. If I understand the issue correctly, manufacturers make decisions about to whom they will market their products and some age groups are not on the list. But the demographic seems to have changed, the baby boomers are not the same over-50s that their parents were. And yet ad agencies, who also make decisions about what we will hear, seem to cling to what might be outmoded ideas about buying habits. Finally, radio stations, who depend on sales performance to determine format, want to make more money so the oldies format is dead. When someone ditches a format because it does not earn enough, is the "enough" ever defined? I mean, maybe there is no enough. Maybe the format earns but it cannot earn the illusive enough. Maybe the oldies format will return as the demographic ages or maybe there will never be enough. But what I find interesting is that the demographic has changed and yet manufacturers and ad agencies cling to an old concept of what people of a certain age will buy. The concept of oldies may also change. Right now, it seems to encompass first generation rock. But the boom-boom disco sound if not already an oldie will soon be an oldie. And for this oldie, that's one genre I would be happy never to hear again.

Welcome, LeChat...

Many people describe the situation as you did. But manufacturers spend a lot of time, energy and money tracking consumer behavior - just as broadcasters track listener behavior. There are several diary panels which track who buys what and how much of it and when, very similar to how Arbitron records radio listening. Beyond that, manufacturers have all the data generated by credit card purchases and store cards. So if a Widget maker decides to aim their ads at people under 55, it's because they know that's who most of the widget buyers are. An overly obvious example would be you don't see makers of feminine hygiene products buying spots on sports talk stations. Yes, 13 per cent of their listeners are women but they would still pay 100 per cent of the spot rate (meaning 87 cents of every ad dollar would be wasted). This is all about population groups, patterns and statistics. There are always exceptions but manufacturers make decisions based on "rules."

The other big factor in ad buys is the so-called 80/20 Rule. Percentages vary in different product categories but the principle holds true. 20 per cent of your customers account for 80 per cent of your sales. If you are Kellogg's, you want to reach listeners who buy two or more boxes of cereal a week (more than you want to reach those who one a month or less). Often, 55 plus consumers will buy the products advertised mostly to the 25 to 54 set, but they don't buy as much or as often.

Many products are marketed to 55+ consumers. Often manufacturers or service providers use newspapers or TV. Some cable channels are mostly supported by advertising to older consumers; so are the evening network newscasts and other shows. But when companies advertising to the "mature" market do buy radio, they don't buy Oldies. Why? A lot more 55+ listeners are tuned to talk radio, adult contemporary, even country in some parts of the country. Older Black and Hispanic listeners tend to listen to Urban or Hispanic formats. Religious formats also do well among older listeners. Adult contemporary (in particular) does very well with women in the "money demos" (25 to 54) and still delivers older listeners, as well.

Bottom Line: Many manufacturers do target oldsters, but they don't buy Oldies to do it. Largely because a lot of people in the upper age groups are not listening to Oldies.

Many people really want to believe there is some great corporate or business conspiracy against older consumers. They ignore anything to the contrary and keep repeating this myth over and over again. It sounds plausible. You read it, picked it up and bought it. Only problem is it's not true. Most of what you read in the 11 pages of this thread is dead wrong. But don't expect people to ever admit it.

 

[TheFonz]

I'm new to this forum and I have read all 11 pages of this thread. If I understand the issue correctly, manufacturers make decisions about to whom they will market their products and some age groups are not on the list. But the demographic seems to have changed, the baby boomers are not the same over-50s that their parents were. And yet ad agencies, who also make decisions about what we will hear, seem to cling to what might be outmoded ideas about buying habits. Finally, radio stations, who depend on sales performance to determine format, want to make more money so the oldies format is dead. When someone ditches a format because it does not earn enough, is the "enough" ever defined? I mean, maybe there is no enough. Maybe the format earns but it cannot earn the illusive enough. Maybe the oldies format will return as the demographic ages or maybe there will never be enough. But what I find interesting is that the demographic has changed and yet manufacturers and ad agencies cling to an old concept of what people of a certain age will buy. The concept of oldies may also change. Right now, it seems to encompass first generation rock. But the boom-boom disco sound if not already an oldie will soon be an oldie. And for this oldie, that's one genre I would be happy never to hear again.

I have an easier to understand explanation that I've posted before. Since you are new to this board you may not have seen it. So here it is again: Radio is a Pimp. The advertiser is the John. And the listener is the Ho. As the Ho gets older, the John loses interest in her. The John asks the Pimp for younger Hos. So in spite of their years of loyality, the Pimp dumps all of his "old, used up" Hos. The Pimp tries to attract younger Hos, but he has a problem. Younger Hos don't need a Pimp.................they are doing just fine without him. So the John stops doing business with the Pimp. The Pimp has his Escalade repossed. And he soon finds himself working at a car wash. And what about those "old, used up" Hos? Well, they too have discovered that they don't need the Pimp. Life is good. And they will live happily ever after. The End.

 

[LeChat]

Fonz, I loved your analogy. The consolidation of radio is one thing and the failure to understand a different audience is another. And I guess Fred said it best, there really is no "enough"--old fogies buy products but they don't buy them enough--enough said. Of course, like other "old hos" I have migrated elsewhere to get what I want musically. Radio consolidation is bad for other reasons and those who promote it or believe it does something wonderful for the media are part of the whole consolidation mess and making big bucks screwing it up for the rest of us. This is layman's perspective so I expect to be shouted down and told that I have sold a bill of liberal pinko commie hippy-dippy bull--never mind that I can see, hear, read the difference. I was drawn to this thread principally because of the NPR report, which I suspect has not been heard or read buy those who pooh-pooh it. I don't remember where I read this, but I think it is apt: We are the baby boom generation. We have always mattered and we will not relinquish our pre-eminence lightly. And this could be why the Depends people can look forward to a record profit decade

 

[TheFonz]

[loyality] [repossed]

Oops! Excuse the typos. Should be "loyalty" and "repossessed". This new board doesn't give us much time to modify.

 

[amfmsw]

In response to the common misconception that older boomers don'r spend, consider this. This past summer, the Wildwoods (NJ) Convention Center hosted several concert events.

The '80's Cinderella and Poisin rock concerts wer "ok"

The '70's Disco Inferno concert was a bomb. (July) The promoter lost big $$

The '60's "Wildwood Days" concerts / muscle cars displays did very well. approx 2000 tickets sold. (Spring)

The '50's Weekend, this past weekend, chilly, abandoned shore town October, sold 7000 tickets at $40 each to see James Darren and different bands.
TOTAL SELL-OUT each night, every event.

I guess we don't act on messages heard on the radio. The agencies and Madison Avenue is all wet, and their ignorance of the FACTS is a disgrace.

 

[radioskeptic]

Correction, amfmsw: Wildwood's Fifties was heavily promoted on WVLT/Vineland, a Class A FM station that plays real oldies during the day (with some '60's and '70's thrown in) and a congeries of god-awful brokered garbage in the evenings. (Exceptions to the "garbage": the "Doo-Wop Diner" and Sam the Golden Oldies Man.)

 

[fred flintstone]

In response to the common misconception that older boomers don'r spend ...

I guess we don't act on messages heard on the radio. The agencies and Madison Avenue is all wet, and their ignorance of the FACTS is a disgrace.

I guess you have not been paying attention. I would hate to accuse you of deliberately making a false or inaccurate statement.

The common misconception is that advertisers believe older consumers don't spend.

Many advertised products and services do target older consumers.
Ad agencies for these products and services often don't use radio. Read a newspaper. Watch the network evening news and various cable channels. All sorts of ads targeting older consumers.
Some do buy radio - just not Oldies stations. Listen to talk radio, which also skews old. Lots of spots targeting older consumers.

Why don't advertisers targeting the "senior market" buy Oldies radio. Well, for one thing, most of their target customers are not listerning to Oldies. Specifically, in the Spring Arbitron 06 book, on average, in a given 15 minute period, 93.2 per cent of radio listeners aged 55 to 64 were listening to something else.

But keep droning on about the great ad agency conspiracy against old people if it makes you feel better. Don't confuse things with facts.

PS: Those people who bought tickets to see James Darren (Vic Fontaine on Star Trek: Deep Space 9) may have been Trekkers. He played one of three artificial life-forms which were regulars or semi-regulars on Star Trek series: Commander Data, The Doctor on Voyager and Vic.
Live long and prosper.

 

[TheFonz]

Why don't advertisers targeting the "senior market" buy Oldies radio. Well, for one thing, most of their target customers are not listerning to Oldies. Specifically, in the Spring Arbitron 06 book, on average, in a given 15 minute period, 93.2 per cent of radio listeners aged 55 to 64 were listening to something else.

Should we blame the listener for that, or should we blame the FORMAT?

 

[radiofriend1]

Why don't advertisers targeting the "senior market" buy Oldies radio. Well, for one thing, most of their target customers are not listerning to Oldies. Specifically, in the Spring Arbitron 06 book, on average, in a given 15 minute period, 93.2 per cent of radio listeners aged 55 to 64 were listening to something else.

Should we blame the listener for that, or should we blame the FORMAT?

there is no *BLAME*-- it's just the way it is. as they age they listen to music radio less.

and btw it's always been that way. if they listened in droves and spent big advertisers would be flocking to oldies stations

luv this contradition to everybody pissed at oldies stations------ corporate radio are a bunch of money-hungry bottom-liners............yet, if 55+ listeners could bring that much money to radio don't u think the radio groups would be all over them????/ i know that concept makes way too much sense, but think about it for a sec

 

[Anyacat]

I see we are back into the enough discussion. Oldies bring in money, they do not bring in enough money. I get it. I will go to satellite or Internet and find my musical kicks. We understand, anyone who does not perform to the profile is atypical.