THIS IS WHY DANCE MUSIC WILL CONTINUE TO GET NO RESPECT IN THE US!

[TonySantiago]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV_hcVYefoY

Ultra Records put up Kim Sozzi's video for "Rated R".

Now granted, not everyone in the world is going to like a particular track. You are going to get your comments and criticisms

HOWEVER, the venom of negative comments in here falls nothing short of disgust. It's not even a "hate" per se more than outright venom. It also shows that work STILL needs to be done with our own "inner war" of purists versus commercialism.

It goes back to that thread about being "elitist" and how our community remains divided. It's venom like what is being spewed off YouTube that is why dance music does not get far in this country. Would a program director on a regular CHR station put this track on the air if they're going by the harsh negative feedback? A lot of the "hate" is geared at the Ultra label in itself for allowing themselves to "sell out".

I've gotten to know MANY artists, pure underground, commercial, etc. And not ONE of them has ever said to me that they would only like to sell 15 records because they'd rather be "hip" than make money and be labeled as a "sellout".

Kim has worked VERY hard to produce a track that HAS commercial success written all over it, and at the same time maintain her position as one of the leading dance music artists in this country. I was with John Parker at Zachary's when she performed "Rated R" and the crowd was LOVING IT!

The hate has to stop. Because if it doesn't, then we would have NO right to complain about why our music isn't heard on the radio if we're going to allow people to bash on it. Especially in consideration that things are looking positive for our music here.

 

[anthonydt06]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. What was said about that song is no worse than what I've read about other songs in other more mainstream genres in the US. Hard work doesn't always equate to popular appeal. It's possible the song is ahead it's time, but based on the overall raw reviews, the song is most likely not going to be successful. Dance is not immune to having bad releases like rock, rap, r&b, country, etc., and bad releases are always subject to harsh criticism -- especially in the online world. No matter how popular dance gets, not every song will be a success and there will always be people who dislike and even hate. Let them, we most likely don't like their taste in music anyway. ;D

We should be thankful that the genre is growing and that uptempo sounds are gaining popularity. There are plenty of people who enjoy it when I introduce them to Deadmau5 or Swedish House Mafia. As long as what's being released doesn't sound overly repetitive, more people will continue to like dance music, and maybe then the format can eventually become self-sustaining in the United States.

 

[d21ofnj]

There is one comment on YouTube I do agree with.......Jump Smokers really gave this track more of a "punch" with their remix and I do see this remix will be on terrestrial faster than the original edit.  The original edit feels more of a "lounge/chill" type of sound meant for the "business party atmosphere" while the Jump Smokers remix has that "attitude" of "hit the dancefloor/go crazy". Vocals are great! No diss or any bashing, I'm giving a valid opinion. 

The main problem is that everyone expects dance music in the US to sound EXACTLY like dance music in Europe.  And when the dance stations here do something, the elitists don't care what we do because we're not an "European" sound.  I can name a handful of DJ's I followed back in the late 90's that had the "hardcore pure underground" sound and get bashed today because of the crossover.  This is why I sometimes feel like giving up.  Not only are these negative comments have any meaning or an explanation why he/she hates it, it's more of the elitists are frustrated that their underground sound is not good enough for radio like it is in Europe.  Keyword...."underground."  What do you expect if you want to keep things "under" but cry wolf when it's not going mainstream?


BTW, anyone know Gabry Ponte? This is him around 2003

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co2FKZK3fhY&feature=fvw

and this is him now in 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fDYv8E3kNw&feature=related

 

[TonySantiago]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. What was said about that song is no worse than what I've read about other songs in other more mainstream genres in the US. Hard work doesn't always equate to popular appeal. It's possible the song is ahead it's time, but based on the overall raw reviews, the song is most likely not going to be successful. Dance is not immune to having bad releases like rock, rap, r&b, country, etc., and bad releases are always subject to harsh criticism -- especially in the online world. No matter how popular dance gets, not every song will be a success and there will always be people who dislike and even hate. Let them, we most likely don't like their taste in music anyway. ;D

We should be thankful that the genre is growing and that uptempo sounds are gaining popularity. There are plenty of people who enjoy it when I introduce them to Deadmau5 or Swedish House Mafia. As long as what's being released doesn't sound overly repetitive, more people will continue to like dance music, and maybe then the format can eventually become self-sustaining in the United States.

Believe me Anthony, I am VERY thankful that things are growing for us! ;D

And while I do agree that while not every song out there is great and people want to criticize on it, it's the venom of the criticisms on this one that got to me, which was mainly a war between "purist" tastes and "commercial appeal". Admittedly I do lean purist but I am also a realist in the sense that if dance music is going to make dents in this country, it needs to get exposure and the commercial stuff will help in that regards IN ORDER for the more riskier, pure material to gain exposure as well.

Add to the fact that I am a friend of Kim, it might have provoked me more in that sense.

 

[TonySantiago]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. What was said about that song is no worse than what I've read about other songs in other more mainstream genres in the US. Hard work doesn't always equate to popular appeal. It's possible the song is ahead it's time, but based on the overall raw reviews, the song is most likely not going to be successful. Dance is not immune to having bad releases like rock, rap, r&b, country, etc., and bad releases are always subject to harsh criticism -- especially in the online world. No matter how popular dance gets, not every song will be a success and there will always be people who dislike and even hate. Let them, we most likely don't like their taste in music anyway. ;D

We should be thankful that the genre is growing and that uptempo sounds are gaining popularity. There are plenty of people who enjoy it when I introduce them to Deadmau5 or Swedish House Mafia. As long as what's being released doesn't sound overly repetitive, more people will continue to like dance music, and maybe then the format can eventually become self-sustaining in the United States.

Believe me Anthony, I am VERY thankful that things are growing for us! ;D

And while I do agree that while not every song out there is great and people want to criticize on it, it's the venom of the criticisms on this one that got to me, which was mainly a war between "purist" tastes and "commercial appeal". Admittedly I do lean purist but I am also a realist in the sense that if dance music is going to make dents in this country, it needs to get exposure and the commercial stuff will help in that regards IN ORDER for the more riskier, pure material to gain exposure as well.

Add to the fact that I am a friend of Kim, it might have provoked me more in that sense.

Believe me Anthony, I am VERY thankful that things are growing for us! ;D

And while I do agree that while not every song out there is great and people want to criticize on it, it's the venom of the criticisms on this one that got to me, which was mainly a war between "purist" tastes and "commercial appeal". Admittedly I do lean purist but I am also a realist in the sense that if dance music is going to make dents in this country, it needs to get exposure and the commercial stuff will help in that regards IN ORDER for the more riskier, pure material to gain exposure as well.

Add to the fact that I am a friend of Kim, it might have provoked me more in that sense.

 

[TonySantiago]

Believe me Anthony, I am VERY thankful that things are growing for us! ;D

And while I do agree that while not every song out there is great and people want to criticize on it, it's the venom of the criticisms on this one that got to me, which was mainly a war between "purist" tastes and "commercial appeal". Admittedly I do lean purist but I am also a realist in the sense that if dance music is going to make dents in this country, it needs to get exposure and the commercial stuff will help in that regards IN ORDER for the more riskier, pure material to gain exposure as well.

Add to the fact that I am a friend of Kim, it might have provoked me more in that sense.

 

[theedger]

Speaking as a programmer of dance radio, a song has to have commercial appeal and fit the perceived image of my station(s). As much as we like to be 'best friends' with artists, that closeness sometimes can prevent us from having an objective opinion of a song. There were songs I would hear in the club during my KNRJ days later heard on the cd player sitting in my office just didn't translate. Yes I saw people going crazy at the club, but when listening to the song on the radio I'd reach for the button. That can work in reverse as well, songs on the radio just don't fill the floor, yet you like them.

As for the Kim Sozzi track, Kim is a nice person who works her ass off. Is "Rated R" a hit? You'd have to define "hit". Will it get support from dance stations that are based in the NE? - yes. Will it get licensed to multiple countries? - likely not. Does Kim like the song? Do you like it? Would you buy it? - isn't that all that really matters?

You can ask any promoter that talks to me, I give them my honest opinion of a song. Does my opinion make or break a song? Doubt it. Do I have the power to influence the buying public and affect the perceived success of a song. Yes.

The internet is a powerful communication network. It gives a voice to people who never spoke up before. There is responsibility that comes with that new found power. Those who choose to be destructive in their criticism rather than constructive may use words in their postings, but do not truly have a voice, as it becomes lost in the hate.

 

[CHRles]

Mike, that was an excellent reply. It's very refreshing to hear it as I do sometimes get the feeling that quite a few PDs in the industry (regardless of genre) add records based on their relationships with certain artists or labels.

On another note, D21ofnj, I really hope you weren't insinuating that Gabry Ponte was ever underground. I like his 2003 stuff, but it wasn't all that different from what Gigi D'agostino and Prezoiso were releasing at the time.
At the same time I like quite a bit of underground Dance, and I can assure you that "Time To Rock" was not perceived as such back in 2003.

 

[Dancerev889]

Speaking as a programmer of dance radio, a song has to have commercial appeal and fit the perceived image of my station(s). As much as we like to be 'best friends' with artists, that closeness sometimes can prevent us from having an objective opinion of a song. There were songs I would hear in the club during my KNRJ days later heard on the cd player sitting in my office just didn't translate. Yes I saw people going crazy at the club, but when listening to the song on the radio I'd reach for the button. That can work in reverse as well, songs on the radio just don't fill the floor, yet you like them.

As for the Kim Sozzi track, Kim is a nice person who works her ass off. Is "Rated R" a hit? You'd have to define "hit". Will it get support from dance stations that are based in the NE? - yes. Will it get licensed to multiple countries? - likely not. Does Kim like the song? Do you like it? Would you buy it? - isn't that all that really matters?

You can ask any promoter that talks to me, I give them my honest opinion of a song. Does my opinion make or break a song? Doubt it. Do I have the power to influence the buying public and affect the perceived success of a song. Yes.

The internet is a powerful communication network. It gives a voice to people who never spoke up before. There is responsibility that comes with that new found power. Those who choose to be destructive in their criticism rather than constructive may use words in their postings, but do not truly have a voice, as it becomes lost in the hate.

I agree with Mike. As a North East programmer, there are certain artists that work for us that wont work for Mike's station. As much as people think there should be one sound, it wont happen. Plus it also gives each station its own personality. Something that a lot bigger stations have lost over the years.

 

[Wildstyle K]

Before reading the YouTube comment, I'm going to go ahead and say this:

YOUTUBE COMMENTS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN within my list of top 5 sites where I consider the comments section to be the HEIGHT OF STUPIDITY.

With that being said, I will now go check it out, then return and let you know my thoughts and whether or not I change my mind about what I've said earlier.

 

[Wildstyle K]

I just wasted all this time typing all this crap, only to delete it and realize I really don't want to say anything about it.

After all, this is YOUTUBE COMMENTS. I'm never surprised with any type of hate or bashing that happens in YouTube comments, Yahoo! News comments, TMZ comments, ...etc.

If I went through all the areas/organizations that have the ability to post YouTube videos (NASA, aviation/aircraft design companies, Dating Coaches, Meteorology/storm chasers...etc.) in which bashing goes on through the use of YouTube comments, it would be completely unbelievable. I know Tony's point here was to use the YouTube video as an example of what's going on from a dance music point of view, but... I personally would not pay any attention to anything that happens within the YouTube comments section.

That's like getting caught up with a News Talk station who posts a status on facebook, asking; "what do you think of border security and TSA agents?" NOTHING PRODUCTIVE ever results from reading whatever comments exist afterwards. Yesterday, Snoop Dogg was bashed for using autotune AND not rapping in his latest hit with The cataracs, entitled "wet", and "this is why hip hop is dead". Cascada, I'm sure is still being bashed for "trying to be like Lady Gaga". I don't think I have to say more.

That's all I have to say.

This is also why i tell some people on YouTube they should DISABLE THEIR COMMENTS.

 

[d21ofnj]

On another note, D21ofnj, I really hope you weren't insinuating that Gabry Ponte was ever underground. I like his 2003 stuff, but it wasn't all that different from what Gigi D'agostino and Prezoiso were releasing at the time.
At the same time I like quite a bit of underground Dance, and I can assure you that "Time To Rock" was not perceived as such back in 2003.

Nope, just a comparison to how Kim Sozzi was liked with her early 2000's work and now she "sold out" based on her recent work. As far as Ponte not being aware back in 03, that track is on Louie DeVito's Dancefactory 2 CD which was released that year and that's when KTU added "Time To Rock" in rotation.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

I too have to agree with Mike,, You cant let personal relationships,, or friendships per se get in the way of your own judgement on whether a record should or could become a hit on your station. I think Mike is really good with making decisions regarding programing. If you listen to Energy 98 you will hear a mix of current and also alot of quality gold from the past 10 years rather than playing only current hits and just recycling them.

Furthermore,, look at the Cumulous stations and the way Jan Jeffries will play any turd that comes across his desk as long as you have a relationship with him....LAME

 

[Morpheux]

I'm surprised most people posting here fail to recognized what most dance genres biggest weakness is-SALES

How many dance songs are on the iTunes Top 20 chart in the U.S.? Exactly.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

Very few,,, and you have a great point because people cant buy what is not available.. Even in music stores like FYI the only store in my area where you can buy some dance music doesnt have hardly any music available at all.

 

[theedger]

I'm surprised most people posting here fail to recognized what most dance genres biggest weakness is-SALES

How many dance songs are on the iTunes Top 20 chart in the U.S.? Exactly.

I would say it's biggest weakness is exposure. Look what happened when that jersey shore show played one of the most novelty dance songs to come out this year - the non-dance public found out about it and for some strange reason wanted to hear it on their CHR. Imagine if good commercial dance songs got that kind of exposure on a regular basis. Exposure+coolness=sales

 

[Wildstyle K]

Ok, first time I tried to dance around the issue and blow it off, but now I'M GOING TO GET REAL!

I wonder; If dance were thriving and having great success all around right now, would that video and its comments, as they are right now, even be an issue?

I've seen other genres survive, despite the fact that there were three groups of people;
1. The purist fan of that genre
2. The pop sound fan of that genre
3. The person who doesn't care either way and just loves the music.

I don't think anyone else other than dance fans notice a purist vs. non purist battle going on there (without being told about it first). They will just think it's the normal, typical, everyday hating and bashing that tends to always exist within the YouTube comments section.

If you REALLY want to see some nasty hating or things being said, I could post links to some other videos... Anyway, I think dance will be ok, overall. After all, this SAME talk that's happening in Kim's video comments section never stopped Lady Gaga, Cascada, BT, David Guetta...etc. from doing their thing and experimenting on BOTH sides of the pure vs pop fence! The same thing on the other side - Rihanna, Flo Rida, Pitbull, Kid Cudi...etc. are all STILL doing what they do, how they like, as they wish, regardless of what people are thinking.

Maybe this talk and bashing will hurt the "dance community" as a whole - in people's imagination, but in reality, music itself, regardless of genre or what people choose to call it, will always either
A. Be successful, or
B. Not be successful.

I still believe direct & specific genre labels can help specific sounds and styles to gain more personalized attention, make it easier to find, and have more independent success, but other than that, the reality is that music is just music, and it wasn't until people started this whole thing where something is "real" or fake that this extra problem of purist vs non purist began to exist within the "dance community". I don't think this is the main problem with dance, because after all, there are pop rock haters and mainstream hip hop haters who want their "real" rock or "real" hip hop, yet those two genres still lived big. Even with music in general; Notice how people say certain music from certain generations are "real" music and no other generation compares. Well, that certainly did not stop the "fake" music of the other "unworthy" generations from taking over the spotlight. So, with that being said, I doubt this purist vs non purist will do anymore damage to dance than it has to other genres. Whatever state a genre is in during any given time, that's just how it is, regardless of the existence of purists vs. non purist feuding. All this is only taken personally now because we see ourselves as "failures" in the back of our minds, and the reason we see ourselves that way is because we ourselves are doing the SAME, EXACT type of judging towards the music. Therefore, all the electro-pop dance, or dance with established pop artist singers, that ARE successfully making it right now isn't good enough or acceptable enough for us at a subconscious level. If it was, then we'd say we're doing pretty well right now, and this video and its comments would've just passed by like a Low Pressure weather system accompanied by a cold front to a person who's not a meteorologist. In other words, it would've passed by, UNNOTICED.

Those same people we're blaming for being the problems are nothing more than what we are, but with less denial about it. We pretend like we don't see pure vs pop, when in reality, we see it clearer than a windexed glass that's being shown in 3D Hi-Definition. Maybe you're thinking "that didn't even make any sense!" Well, this whole thing where we discriminate certain music because it's not "real" also doesn't make sense - YET THAT still continues to happen, so..... !!!!!

Ok, NOW I'm done.

 

[2Son]

I personally believe that once CHR/Top 40 radio stops acting like a new dance song is some weird anomaly, dance may be more accepted. There's nothing I hate more on radio than having a radio personality have to explain WHY they are playing a certain song. Just play the song...if people like it, they'll find out what it is. There's nothing wrong with explaining what the song is or who the artist is, but from my many years of listening experience, stations have had just as much success just playing songs than having to constantly pimp them. The constant pimping of only certain artists and certain songs has made this generation more "watered-down" and radio very "one-tune"; however, I believe that the radio audience nowadays will accept whatever you throw at them. How else can you explain the same people who LOVED their hip-hop also loving the new direction and semi-dance lean some of these artists have taken?. I believe if you threw in more dance, the audience would accept that the new dance direction is the new trendy thing.

 

[TonySantiago]

Speaking as a programmer of dance radio, a song has to have commercial appeal and fit the perceived image of my station(s). As much as we like to be 'best friends' with artists, that closeness sometimes can prevent us from having an objective opinion of a song. There were songs I would hear in the club during my KNRJ days later heard on the cd player sitting in my office just didn't translate. Yes I saw people going crazy at the club, but when listening to the song on the radio I'd reach for the button. That can work in reverse as well, songs on the radio just don't fill the floor, yet you like them.

As for the Kim Sozzi track, Kim is a nice person who works her ass off. Is "Rated R" a hit? You'd have to define "hit". Will it get support from dance stations that are based in the NE? - yes. Will it get licensed to multiple countries? - likely not. Does Kim like the song? Do you like it? Would you buy it? - isn't that all that really matters?

You can ask any promoter that talks to me, I give them my honest opinion of a song. Does my opinion make or break a song? Doubt it. Do I have the power to influence the buying public and affect the perceived success of a song. Yes.

The internet is a powerful communication network. It gives a voice to people who never spoke up before. There is responsibility that comes with that new found power. Those who choose to be destructive in their criticism rather than constructive may use words in their postings, but do not truly have a voice, as it becomes lost in the hate.

Mike, thank you! Well said!

I mean, let's set this straight, yes I am friends with Kim and MANY other artists in the dance music industry. Without saying names, some of these artists have produced good material and at the same time produced material that wasn't so hot (remixes help in that regard). However, this thread was more about how people come off versus what I think of Kim's track because she is a friend. It's more about what "purists" think versus the "commercial/radio" aspect of dance and seeing the venom in there, that's what made me concerned.

Now Mike and Brett, you guys are strong with dance so as PD's in that lean you know what works in your market or not. But you both have a stronger knowledge of the material versus other PD's that may know some but not enough and yeah, have to be concerned with the sound of their station. I am aware of that. For me, I just don't want these venomous judgments cloud opinions. If people hate this track, fine. There are much more constructive ways to say things versus being nihilistic.

And yeah, some of the comments in there you can't take seriously anyway. But such as life, a person aims to be a success and people want to knock them down for it.

 

[Wildstyle K]

I personally believe that once CHR/Top 40 radio stops acting like a new dance song is some weird anomaly, dance may be more accepted. There's nothing I hate more on radio than having a radio personality have to explain WHY they are playing a certain song. Just play the song...if people like it, they'll find out what it is. There's nothing wrong with explaining what the song is or who the artist is, but from my many years of listening experience, stations have had just as much success just playing songs than having to constantly pimp them. The constant pimping of only certain artists and certain songs has made this generation more "watered-down" and radio very "one-tune"; however, I believe that the radio audience nowadays will accept whatever you throw at them. How else can you explain the same people who LOVED their hip-hop also loving the new direction and semi-dance lean some of these artists have taken?. I believe if you threw in more dance, the audience would accept that the new dance direction is the new trendy thing.

"Get ready to get yo fist pumpin on / bring out your glow sticks with this next track yall! ..." ;D