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This is why stations should kill oldies
- Thread starter amfmsw
- Start date
R
radioatlantis
Guest
CLASSIC AND OLDIES AS VITAL AS ANY
The older you get, the more important the memories are. You can not commit radio genocide to entire groups of people - especially, the largest number of retiring segment in the history.
We all grew up with the "elevator" or nursing home stations for the generations of our time that were expiring and radio seemed to know how to present it and sell it to make money.
THIS is the problem. The people who run radio and own radio fashion themselves experts. While far from progressive, they can't seem to stand the thought of marketing a product under their corporate banner that they consider to be "outdated".
They become inept at selling it because they don't have the brains to recreate it, repackage it and make it vital.
The XM 60s channel that Cleveland Wheeler developed seemed to have no problem gaining a most favored status when arbitron rated from within. IT also wasn't lacking in response from listeners - an enthusiasm most OLDIES radio and CLASSIC HITS can't seem to muster.
When the powers over processes are challenged, they either steal something that works from somewhere else (Jack), bastardize it, change frequencies or give it a new name and slap something else in the box out to see if will stick.
Naturally, none of I is anything fresh and innovating.
There is definitely a market for the best music ever played and the original CBS excuse that this audience didn't possess any appreciable spendable income and weren't mainstream consumers, is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Problematically, is that all the young salespeople have no understanding of how much more impactive radio was before they were born so they can't identify with the passion for the music and the feeling about radio of yesterday that the core audience has. Most of them do not know the music unless they are discovers.
But there is no point in telling corporations anything these days. This is a do-what-we-say
and appreciate that you even have a job environment and it has little to do with innovation or new ideas. It only has to do with, "did we meet budgets for the year - then let's start
tossing out bodies."
Take Wheeler and his full spectrum reflection of the 60s, not one part of the pop culture was left out..nor was the war, or the contract to what Britain was playing when the invasion was happening here, the pirates, the soul, advent of American rock bands, bubblegum, surf, novelty songs, movie themes, protest and folk, and countless artists specials and history of the music, along with constant chronology and events references. What corporately owned FM has ever presented anything remotely close to touch the soul of listeners?
The biz mires themselves in formulas and statistics so that nothing else is more real to radio than a 12 person focus group thrown slanted questions so they can justify what they WANT to do in the first place .....same moronic method with auditorium and call out music testing.
I love when these geeks start talking about the CLASSIC HITS that tested. Hey, if it sold a million or more and was a TOP TEN song, you be assure that it has a place in the format and NEEDS to be played. But we all know this isn't the case.
It doesn't take a statistician or a "scientist" to air great radio...it takes a RADIO person with street smarts and a finger on the pulse of people.
Radio has also discarded emotion and the very compelling roll it places in anything nostalgic.
The older you get, the more important the memories are. You can not commit radio genocide to entire groups of people - especially, the largest number of retiring segment in the history.
We all grew up with the "elevator" or nursing home stations for the generations of our time that were expiring and radio seemed to know how to present it and sell it to make money.
THIS is the problem. The people who run radio and own radio fashion themselves experts. While far from progressive, they can't seem to stand the thought of marketing a product under their corporate banner that they consider to be "outdated".
They become inept at selling it because they don't have the brains to recreate it, repackage it and make it vital.
The XM 60s channel that Cleveland Wheeler developed seemed to have no problem gaining a most favored status when arbitron rated from within. IT also wasn't lacking in response from listeners - an enthusiasm most OLDIES radio and CLASSIC HITS can't seem to muster.
When the powers over processes are challenged, they either steal something that works from somewhere else (Jack), bastardize it, change frequencies or give it a new name and slap something else in the box out to see if will stick.
Naturally, none of I is anything fresh and innovating.
There is definitely a market for the best music ever played and the original CBS excuse that this audience didn't possess any appreciable spendable income and weren't mainstream consumers, is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Problematically, is that all the young salespeople have no understanding of how much more impactive radio was before they were born so they can't identify with the passion for the music and the feeling about radio of yesterday that the core audience has. Most of them do not know the music unless they are discovers.
But there is no point in telling corporations anything these days. This is a do-what-we-say
and appreciate that you even have a job environment and it has little to do with innovation or new ideas. It only has to do with, "did we meet budgets for the year - then let's start
tossing out bodies."
Take Wheeler and his full spectrum reflection of the 60s, not one part of the pop culture was left out..nor was the war, or the contract to what Britain was playing when the invasion was happening here, the pirates, the soul, advent of American rock bands, bubblegum, surf, novelty songs, movie themes, protest and folk, and countless artists specials and history of the music, along with constant chronology and events references. What corporately owned FM has ever presented anything remotely close to touch the soul of listeners?
The biz mires themselves in formulas and statistics so that nothing else is more real to radio than a 12 person focus group thrown slanted questions so they can justify what they WANT to do in the first place .....same moronic method with auditorium and call out music testing.
I love when these geeks start talking about the CLASSIC HITS that tested. Hey, if it sold a million or more and was a TOP TEN song, you be assure that it has a place in the format and NEEDS to be played. But we all know this isn't the case.
It doesn't take a statistician or a "scientist" to air great radio...it takes a RADIO person with street smarts and a finger on the pulse of people.
Radio has also discarded emotion and the very compelling roll it places in anything nostalgic.
Re: CLASSIC AND OLDIES AS VITAL AS ANY
Station owners and managers can not seem to stand the thought of losing money. Oldies is not "outdated;" it is just not salable in larger markets where agency business is critical to making money.
For a product to be salable, it must attract consumers advertisers want to reach. When I asked the GM of LA's #1 station how many agency buys against 55+ she had seen this year, she said there were none. You can not sell a format that appeals to age groups advertisers have told their agencies not to buy.
The XM 60s channel that Cleveland Wheeler developed seemed to have no problem gaining a most favored status when arbitron rated from within. IT also wasn't lacking in response from listeners - an enthusiasm most OLDIES radio and CLASSIC HITS can't seem to muster.
When the powers over processes are challenged, they either steal something that works from somewhere else (Jack), bastardize it, change frequencies or give it a new name and slap something else in the box out to see if will stick.
Naturally, none of I is anything fresh and innovating.
There is definitely a market for the best music ever played and the original CBS excuse that this audience didn't possess any appreciable spendable income and weren't mainstream consumers, is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Problematically, is that all the young salespeople have no understanding of how much more impactive radio was before they were born so they can't identify with the passion for the music and the feeling about radio of yesterday that the core audience has. Most of them do not know the music unless they are discovers.
But there is no point in telling corporations anything these days. This is a do-what-we-say
and appreciate that you even have a job environment and it has little to do with innovation or new ideas. It only has to do with, "did we meet budgets for the year - then let's start
tossing out bodies."
That is a satellite format, correct? Satellite is losing a billion dollars a year, and has to merge, they say, to survive. And the medium is totally financed by listeners, not advertisers. Terrestrial commercial radio must not only attract listeners, but listeneers advertisers want to reach. Oldies does not do that. Classic hits does...
What is your objection to stations finding out what listeners themselves want to hear? Radio people on their own have no clue unless they find out what listeners want. Research tools such as perceptuals and focus groups are used by every facet of American business and industry... why should such things be wrong when done for radio?
No, it is not the case. On the radio, today, we play songs that are hits today. In other words, songs people want to hear (the definition of a hit). Not songs they wanted to hear 40 years ago. Most of the hits of years past are not hits today because few, if any people want to hear them. Playing them because they "charted" (and we know why many songs charted back then, don't we?) is like falling on your sword. You are going to be your own worst enemy and will, 100% guaranteed, fail.
The best way to get "a finger on the pulse" of the listener is to talk to actual listenerss in some detailed, organized way.
radioatlantis said:
Station owners and managers can not seem to stand the thought of losing money. Oldies is not "outdated;" it is just not salable in larger markets where agency business is critical to making money.
For a product to be salable, it must attract consumers advertisers want to reach. When I asked the GM of LA's #1 station how many agency buys against 55+ she had seen this year, she said there were none. You can not sell a format that appeals to age groups advertisers have told their agencies not to buy.
The XM 60s channel that Cleveland Wheeler developed seemed to have no problem gaining a most favored status when arbitron rated from within. IT also wasn't lacking in response from listeners - an enthusiasm most OLDIES radio and CLASSIC HITS can't seem to muster.
When the powers over processes are challenged, they either steal something that works from somewhere else (Jack), bastardize it, change frequencies or give it a new name and slap something else in the box out to see if will stick.
Naturally, none of I is anything fresh and innovating.
There is definitely a market for the best music ever played and the original CBS excuse that this audience didn't possess any appreciable spendable income and weren't mainstream consumers, is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
Problematically, is that all the young salespeople have no understanding of how much more impactive radio was before they were born so they can't identify with the passion for the music and the feeling about radio of yesterday that the core audience has. Most of them do not know the music unless they are discovers.
But there is no point in telling corporations anything these days. This is a do-what-we-say
and appreciate that you even have a job environment and it has little to do with innovation or new ideas. It only has to do with, "did we meet budgets for the year - then let's start
tossing out bodies."
That is a satellite format, correct? Satellite is losing a billion dollars a year, and has to merge, they say, to survive. And the medium is totally financed by listeners, not advertisers. Terrestrial commercial radio must not only attract listeners, but listeneers advertisers want to reach. Oldies does not do that. Classic hits does...
What is your objection to stations finding out what listeners themselves want to hear? Radio people on their own have no clue unless they find out what listeners want. Research tools such as perceptuals and focus groups are used by every facet of American business and industry... why should such things be wrong when done for radio?
No, it is not the case. On the radio, today, we play songs that are hits today. In other words, songs people want to hear (the definition of a hit). Not songs they wanted to hear 40 years ago. Most of the hits of years past are not hits today because few, if any people want to hear them. Playing them because they "charted" (and we know why many songs charted back then, don't we?) is like falling on your sword. You are going to be your own worst enemy and will, 100% guaranteed, fail.
The best way to get "a finger on the pulse" of the listener is to talk to actual listenerss in some detailed, organized way.
R
radioatlantis
Guest
Look, by contrast to TV, where advertisers target 55+ in very clever ways. They KNOW that people who are about to retire have boo-coo disposable income. They sell investments with Dennis Hopper talking Flower Power...who does that relate to? Sally Field is taking osteoporosis pills and Cadillac's are sold with Zeppelin. Also 4 out of ten TV spots use hits from the 60s, 70s and 80 to sell product.
No - RADIO fails to deliver a compelling product and they have failed to repackage the format in a way that creates discovery for younger audiences and more than 300 tested songs for those who remember and want to hear them all.
How do you TEST a song that is already bona fide having sold millions of songs and charted top ten. Yet, the experts completely eliminate artists because of a "sound" they want to convey. It's their way of changing history....abbreviating the way it was. Classic Hits don't need to be tested and rotated in such tight rotation that you want a lobotomy.
Too much garbage science by a lot of DISCONNECTED people. Just play the damn things and hire people who know the music and can deliver something about it.
Research is going to all the places where your demo congregates and listening as much as you talk. FIELD RESEARCH ... not a room with twelve people who KNOW they are in an atmosphere to vent. The rate for error in accuracy is very high. Just like testing what you WANT play is more the norm than not.
How many PDs to do you see doing their own street-level research?
And yes, Wheeler's 60s format is on XM but EXCEPTIONAL RADIO has nothing to do with the way someone runs a company. It is still exceptional radio and those who listen (however many) listen to it because it is. Point - a handful of companies own everything and nobody even makes an attempt to to do anything that smacks of a make-over.
Hey...lets just hope that the same people who run the show on AM and FM don't end up controlling the net because THAT is the future of radio. Soon as we get the world wi-fied
and the net goes mobile, all those sticks will be something to hang dirty socks on.
To thine own self be true.
THERE IS MONEY IN THIS FORMAT....
No - RADIO fails to deliver a compelling product and they have failed to repackage the format in a way that creates discovery for younger audiences and more than 300 tested songs for those who remember and want to hear them all.
How do you TEST a song that is already bona fide having sold millions of songs and charted top ten. Yet, the experts completely eliminate artists because of a "sound" they want to convey. It's their way of changing history....abbreviating the way it was. Classic Hits don't need to be tested and rotated in such tight rotation that you want a lobotomy.
Too much garbage science by a lot of DISCONNECTED people. Just play the damn things and hire people who know the music and can deliver something about it.
Research is going to all the places where your demo congregates and listening as much as you talk. FIELD RESEARCH ... not a room with twelve people who KNOW they are in an atmosphere to vent. The rate for error in accuracy is very high. Just like testing what you WANT play is more the norm than not.
How many PDs to do you see doing their own street-level research?
And yes, Wheeler's 60s format is on XM but EXCEPTIONAL RADIO has nothing to do with the way someone runs a company. It is still exceptional radio and those who listen (however many) listen to it because it is. Point - a handful of companies own everything and nobody even makes an attempt to to do anything that smacks of a make-over.
Hey...lets just hope that the same people who run the show on AM and FM don't end up controlling the net because THAT is the future of radio. Soon as we get the world wi-fied
and the net goes mobile, all those sticks will be something to hang dirty socks on.
To thine own self be true.
THERE IS MONEY IN THIS FORMAT....
radioatlantis said:
Many of the products advertised on TV to seniors require visuals or need to scroll disclaimers (that is why Vagra is on TV but not radio) or use apetite appeal to sell.
The fact is that retired folks have very little money if you look at the median savings, which are gnerally mostly made up of appreciation of a residence. Thre are nearly 1 million Americans now retired in Mexico, as they can actually live there on Social Security alone. One high net worth person can drag dozens if not hundreds or thousands of subsistence level retirees into apparent "average" affluence.
Testing aside (I run a classic hits format in 12 major markets and we play 1200 songs), the fact that there is no usage of radio by agency accounts for 55+ and has been none for decades would discourage any onwer from trying to program to a group that no significant agency account is interested in. The same goes for teens. There are nearly no teen buys, and appealing to teens cuts you out of lucrative adult buys like beers and spirits (if a station has too many undre-21s, the spirits advertisers will not buy you) so radio does not program to teens, either.
You play the song snippet and ask if your participants want to hear the song today, on the radio, and how much. If a song does not get a positive score of a certain proportion, it is not, today, a hit and is not playable if you want to keep your audience. Why would you play a song that was a hit 40 years ago that nearly nobody wants to hear today? That is the case with most oldies (60's) and classic hits (70's gold). So you play however many songs people actually want to hear.
Having "sold" (you really believe the charts, don't you. I'd like you to meet Joe Isgor, but Ihing he is in the slammer still. he can tell you how "hits" are made and how few "hits" were really hits and how many were paid sales reports, payola, free product induced, etc.) Most 60's and 70's charts are to be taken with more than a couple of grans of salt.
All I care about is whether my audience wants to hear the song now and each time I play it in the future. I could give a s___t whether it was a hit in 1967 or 1972 or 1981.
Nobody wants to create a sound. They want to attract listeners. Playing stiffs does not do that.
And guess what... Classic Hits WCBS in NY is in the top 3 staitons in the market, and cumes 4 million people weekly. They seem to like the songs that were tested and programmed for appeal today.
I wish I could tell you how many stations I have knocked off that programmed by "golden ears" and gut feel... and how many more I have seen decimated by other PDs who look to the listeners for guidance, not to their own egos.
Music is not tested in a focus group. In fact, many radio companies do not do focus groiups... they do one on one interviews of up to an hour, with dozens of participants representing all the demographic subsets of listeners. The proof of music tests, one on ones and call out is that repeating the same project against the same sample size yields statistically identical results, time after time. Replication studies are the benchmark for research and sample size.
What is truly dangerous is taking to the streets and getting a totally unbalanced and unproportional sample, and making decisions that do not reflect the opinions of each subset of your listeners in proper perspective.
Unfortunately, quite a few. However, it is hard to keep track of them, as they move from staiton to station since that kind of "feel" usually results in a quick ratings tanking.
Since 60's oldies attracts over-55, you are not going to get any terrestrial stations trying this today... most oldies outlets are moving to late 60's and 70's and early 80's because of the demos and sales.
If whatever the project is it is advertiser driven, you will see the exact same mentality.
]
ATLANTIS,
I enjoyed your writings, and agree with 99% of it. There are folk on these boards who will never let you "win" and intelligent arguement. Don't give up. Please keep writing.
My view? From another post:
DE,
You know I respect your opinions, but usually DISAGREE with nearly ALL of them.
Most Consultants need to get their collective noses out of research and psycology books, and get on the streets with the sales department and listeners. They want everyone to listen to them because they're a "consultant". I instead would love to see the consultants LISTEN to the USERS...station personell, owners AND the community. Stop trying to force a square peg in a round whole.
I want a blue car, and the salesman keeps telling me blue is no good, I must have red, no matter what. Blue is wrong, I am wrong, the color MUST be red. That's the way most of us in the industry feel about most consultants. They need to stop looking down their noses and talking down to us. WE'RE the ones in the trenches, they're in the office.
I believe you are so offbase with the economic power of 50-65 year-olds, it's scarry.
I enjoyed your writings, and agree with 99% of it. There are folk on these boards who will never let you "win" and intelligent arguement. Don't give up. Please keep writing.
My view? From another post:
DE,
You know I respect your opinions, but usually DISAGREE with nearly ALL of them.
Most Consultants need to get their collective noses out of research and psycology books, and get on the streets with the sales department and listeners. They want everyone to listen to them because they're a "consultant". I instead would love to see the consultants LISTEN to the USERS...station personell, owners AND the community. Stop trying to force a square peg in a round whole.
I want a blue car, and the salesman keeps telling me blue is no good, I must have red, no matter what. Blue is wrong, I am wrong, the color MUST be red. That's the way most of us in the industry feel about most consultants. They need to stop looking down their noses and talking down to us. WE'RE the ones in the trenches, they're in the office.
I believe you are so offbase with the economic power of 50-65 year-olds, it's scarry.
amfmsw said:
Having been a GM, owner and GSM I perfectly understand the issues of the sales department.
As someone who is face to face with tens of thousands of listeners each year (and my group talks to over two hundred thousand a year), all my work is based on listener input and measured by listener behaviour.
I never referred to 50-64. 55-64, pre-retirement for most, is the demo advertisers don¿t want because there is no return on investment. We don't do stations based on demos advertisers never call for. And before you suggest it is a sales problem, when no market, anywhere in the US can show a successful 55+ station and the reason is that agency accounts forbid buying outside the specified marketing demos, there is no opportunity for radio, no matter who is selling.
65+ is retirees. No radio demand, and low income. See Money Magazine's extract of buying power from a national study and you will find that most retirees are having a rough time of it. The mportgage / housing thing has made it vastly worse.
DE,
Our 1kw on a graveyard AM is 55+. It is in a 100+ market. It is sold out much of the week(with a waiting list for local news sponsorships), and sales are net in excess, well let's just say in this forum, healthy, profitable. Our oldies station is a Class A surrounded by 3 big signal Full Class Bs. It also targets 45-64, and is a cash cow. I'm sure the figures are published somewhere.
Now you know of two such stations. It's content and community service that make money, not a necessarily a younger audience. Money talks, "research shows" sometimes walks. You also need a sales crew that knows what they're doing.
Our 1kw on a graveyard AM is 55+. It is in a 100+ market. It is sold out much of the week(with a waiting list for local news sponsorships), and sales are net in excess, well let's just say in this forum, healthy, profitable. Our oldies station is a Class A surrounded by 3 big signal Full Class Bs. It also targets 45-64, and is a cash cow. I'm sure the figures are published somewhere.
Now you know of two such stations. It's content and community service that make money, not a necessarily a younger audience. Money talks, "research shows" sometimes walks. You also need a sales crew that knows what they're doing.
amfmsw said:
Without knowing the market, it is hard to verify or comment.
I have always said that oldies (50's and 50's) is a great suburban or non-metro format, as there is virtually no agency business and the local account is far less demographically driven and more focused on the cash register. Of course, it is being proven over and over that classic hits, or 70's oldies will be very successful anywhere...
Standards is a tough one. Usually, in rated markets, the power ratio is around 0.3.... but if you keep expenses minimal, a good use for a poor AM facility. If you got the station cheap, and I don't know of many Class IV's selling for big prices lately, run it frugally, you can take the bottom feeder position for advertisers who can not or will not pay the rates of a bigger more listened to station.
My mantra is that a station that is sold out is selling to cheap. If you are sold out, your rate structure is too low, or a raise in rates would push people to better stations.
DavidEduardo said:
I seriously doubt that many 65+ retirees still have a mortgage. Anyone who has been following the stock market lately understands that there are a whole lot of 25-54 people out there who have been spending money they don't have. Retailers may soon discover the segment of the population that actually has money in their pockets. Unfortunatly for radio, it won't be able to react. That demo left commercial music radio years ago.
TheFonz said:
Advertisers don't go after 55+ and 65+ for a simple reason... there is inadequate return on investment. Whether the consumers in this age group have money or not is almost irrelevant... it it costs more to make the sale than what is made on the sale, advertisers will not use radio to reach older consumers.
If you search for the article in Money I metioned, you will find that many senior have mortgages, either due to refinancing, second mortgages or trading homes. And a large portion of 65+ have little money outside of home equity, which means that with no pay and shrinking equity, many seniors are much worse off than working age Americans.
A couple of things I learned from a wise GM & SM were...
This was told to me in 1974, and it still applies today. It's great to be #1, but if you can't pay the bills and staff ......
- If you live by the book, thou shall die by the book.
- It's better to be one of the top three billing stations, than in the top ten of the book.
- If someone tries to say otherwise, ignore them, go somewhere quite, and re-read the first two statements.
This was told to me in 1974, and it still applies today. It's great to be #1, but if you can't pay the bills and staff ......
amfmsw said:
45-64 is half in 55+. 45-54 is a salable demo, 55-64 is not and 55+ even less. While there are a few buys in 35-64, most have gone away as they were mortage and housing based or for financial institutions damaged by the mortgage crisis.
As an example, news/talk stations tend to have half the audience over 55, but when they submit rates for buys, they submit the 25-54 (or subset) efficiencies, and the 55+ is sort of a bonus; agencies love something for free, so it's a no brainer if the 25-54 is supportive of the cost per point in the target, under-55 demo they are looking for. But just look at a station that has all or nearly all its audience over 55... very few of these do well, and the ones that do, like WGN in Chicago, are feeling revenue pressure.
DavidEduardo said:
Good information, Dave, but again I think what is most important is having a professional product and a sales force that brings in revenue. Once you master that, everything but ego is moot.
FredRichards said:
The only issue, though, is that if an age group is not desired by nearly all advertisers, no matter how good the sellers, no agency is going to go against the will and instructions of its clients to buy it.
DavidEduardo said:
True, and I would suggest you can't sell County & Western in black inner city Detroit, Christian formats in predominately Jewish Detroit suburbs, and would probably have a tough go of selling Hot ChR in a retirement community in Florida. Any format has to be unique to a served audience.
You can site numbers in a general sense, but money can be made by an oldies station when formatted correctly, executed professionally, and sold with a plan. The problem, IMHO, is that there are not a lot of station owners motivated or bright enough to make money with the format.
And again, if you let ratings define your level of success then you're measuring ego and not billings. As I said before, I would rather be #10 or more in the book, yet be a top biller in the market.
FredRichards said:
I have never seen such a case in, at least, the top 150 or 200 markets. Almost always when we see a station that is not top 10 in 12+ that bills well, we see that in some set of 18-54 the station is looking very good.... such as many AM sports stations. Conversely, when we see a station at the top that is not in the top 10 in billings, it is one that has very poor 18-54 numbers... like WDUV in Tampa, #1 12+, #14 billings, all the audience 55+.
Ratings are a measure of success because they are a measure of how many listeners you have. If you have lots, you generate lots of sales. If you have few, you do not move product.
If you have lots, you generate lots of sales. If you have few, you do not move product.
CBS-FM had lots, and threw them away like yesterdays' newspaper. And please don't tell PBS that.
How about such an affluent audience, that WHAT 1340 class IV) Philadelphia (Market #6) with it's "Martini Lounge" format has such fans they send in checks unsolicited to keep the format on! It is all Sinatara, Cole, Ellington, Brubeck, Guaraldi, Martin, Davis Jr. All 55+.
I know, it's an anomoly, a freak. Research shows...
CBS-FM had lots, and threw them away like yesterdays' newspaper. And please don't tell PBS that.
How about such an affluent audience, that WHAT 1340 class IV) Philadelphia (Market #6) with it's "Martini Lounge" format has such fans they send in checks unsolicited to keep the format on! It is all Sinatara, Cole, Ellington, Brubeck, Guaraldi, Martin, Davis Jr. All 55+.
I know, it's an anomoly, a freak. Research shows...
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