This is why stations should kill oldies

[oldies76]

Irrespecitve of the fact that the songs you suggest don't test against the stations' own listeners, and that few stations play much 60's anymore, anyway, our job is to play songs people like today. I don't care how a song charted (giggle, giggle, wink, wink... those charts are so fake it is laughable), we are not running museums, but radio stations. Most songs that, gag, charted, are not likeable today.

Tant all you want... go bay at the moon. There is no market for 55+ in the larger rated markets. None.

What you are saying here is absolutely FALSE. Those "charts" are the only way to measure how a song did in it's day (as compared to other years). They were under the best methodologies that were available then. The only gripe I have are the changes made in chart methodologies in the early 90's (due to the 45's demise) that caused songs to chart longer (as compared to the pre-90's music) and stay at number one much longer, like "One Sweet Day"....16 weeks at #1

Most songs that peaked in the upper portions, people DO remember and most are liked, some disliked. A radio station's playlist of 500 oldies / classic hits is a mere fraction of those songs that charted in the upper portions (1-20). Since a station ONLY plays 500 songs (which Palalwanabe says are so repetitious) people get sick and tired of hearing the same stuff over and over again. You know that D.E. Common sense here.

So if listeners are sick of the tight rotations, then other music (from the upper portions of a chart) should be added to freshen up the daily sets and attract new listeners. THEY WILL LIKE THEM.

Proof of this lies in the fact that other classic hits stations have been promoting their huge libraries in an A to Z format and getting incredible feedback by listeners of those stations, one being CBS-FM in NYC.

So by saying that most hits outside of a regular playlist or "untested" songs are disliked by most, is pure stupidity.

And who cares if the big cities don't cater to 55+, plenty of small market stations do and are trying to do what all stations should do...pleasing the audience!

 

[Tom Wells]

Oldies76, you have made a most articulate argument that isolates the heart of the issue and suggests a solution
backed up by the sucess reported in such A-Z specials, where people do enjoy turnover including ALL the top 20's.

They will enjoy it whether they rock out, swoon, cry, groan, or temporarily TUNE AWAY!

If they're enjoying the variety, and not smacking their head on their desk because it's "Love Child" yet again.....
They will come back. Again and again. I know I learned to like music not exactly my choice by hearing it mixed in with
other music. As with opinions, I WANT to hear music that is not exactly like my preference, taste, rut or what have you.

The "subgenius" view on this:
As Bob Dobbs suggests, pull the wool over your own eyes. Spread Slack. TSL will soar.
With the wool over your own eyes you are free to achieve greatness devoid of competetion.
Creativity doesn't work with metrics. Ignore the status quo, follow your vision, and guess what?
Nobody else is doing what YOU'RE doing, and then you win in a class you create for yourself.
People will throw buckets of money at slack.
It's always worked for me.

 

[finallyescaped]

Most songs that peaked in the upper portions, people DO remember and most are liked, some disliked.

I don't think David said people don't remember them, or like/dislike them. He was stating that the majority of people who remember those songs as currents are no longer in salable demos.

And who cares if the big cities don't cater to 55+, plenty of small market stations do and are trying to do what all stations should do...pleasing the audience!

Which is fine in those markets. Unless you're in a market driven by local dollars, it is a near-impossible task to sell a 55+ audience.

So, you're right in the sense of markets supported by local dollars, and David's point is valid is the case of large/major markets that are not. This 17 page thread is starting to repeat itself for the 8th or 9th time... Move on, get over it...

 

[davideduardo]

What you are saying here is absolutely FALSE. Those "charts" are the only way to measure how a song did in it's day (as compared to other years). They were under the best methodologies that were available then.

Yes, the methodologies included giving free product to stores in exchange for reporting sales that did not exist, granting greater return percentages for reports, getting radio stations to report more plays than true, etc., etc., etc. The charts are a starting point, but durning many years in the 50's and 60's and even early 70's were rife with hype and error and fraud.

[/quote]Most songs that peaked in the upper portions, people DO remember and most are liked, some disliked.[/quote]

Remember, by the early 70's Top 40 or CHR or whatever we call it was not the highest rated format. In fact, in the 70's, Beautiful Music had higher market shares than CHR. In most cases, so did AOR.

A radio station's playlist of 500 oldies / classic hits is a mere fraction of those songs that charted in the upper portions (1-20). Since a station ONLY plays 500 songs (which Palalwanabe says are so repetitious) people get sick and tired of hearing the same stuff over and over again. You know that D.E. Common sense here.

If 500 songs test positive, and the rest don't, you play the 500 that nearly everyone likes.

So if listeners are sick of the tight rotations,

There is no proof that they are. To the contrary, they want to hear their favorite songs more often, not less.

then other music (from the upper portions of a chart) should be added to freshen up the daily sets and attract new listeners. THEY WILL LIKE THEM.

Charting high is no guarantee of likability today. It's a song by song evaluation in any gold based format.

Proof of this lies in the fact that other classic hits stations have been promoting their huge libraries in an A to Z format and getting incredible feedback by listeners of those stations, one being CBS-FM in NYC.

Let's wait and see how the July Book looks for NY before leaping to conslusions. It might tank, too.

So by saying that most hits outside of a regular playlist or "untested" songs are disliked by most, is pure stupidity.

We only say that a song is negative if we have tested it. And most of us doing any kind of gold based format have tested four or five times the number of songs we actually play, and test more each time we retest. Testing is ongoing, not a one time thing.

And who cares if the big cities don't cater to 55+, plenty of small market stations do and are trying to do what all stations should do...pleasing the audience!

More than half the US population is in just the top 50 markets, in case you did not know.

 

[palalwanabe]

Bravo Bravo Bravo.............. I got the exact responses I expected to hear !!!!!! What ever the reason (and I still think my blasting of the 800 song rotation is the root, and yes, i did repeat it over and over) this Oldies Radio formula was genius in 1972........35 years later it sucks, Triple the library. Quadruple the library. Even the A......Z you mention is stilll too many TOP 20, ,yeah, they thow in an occasional #55, big deal. please don't make me say it, ok i will, How many times do I have to hear STISFACTION or SHERRY.

Commercail Oldies Radio is Dying ...........EXCEPT ON THE INTRA-NET. And I have Proof that listeners want and will support bigger playlist !!!!!! " BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME "

LIVE365.com has over 10,000 stations of which maybe 4,000 are oldies staions.

This are stations programmed by a majority on Non Radio People,not PD's, not advertisers, not Consultants, just fans. live 365.com solicts listener voting to determine Number one ( I believe radio was invented for listeners).......... well GUESS What the listeners Choose .....DIANAJ's "Golden Oldies" number One by a mile.............. why, she plays a balanced ,deep, creative,incredible format of well over 4,000 cuts rotated monthly. The competition on live 365, mostly equal to commercial radio formats are eating her dust. PD's here is the best free advise you will ever get , listen to her station and see the future of Oldies Radio (yes believe it or not, there is a future for Oldies radio) .........It not Rocket Science, Not testing, not advertiser agencies, not consultants....just great music , and a ton of it, (actually over two tons/since a ton is 2,000)........ who would have thunk iT , huh. And guess what............ she still play 50's, I guess you folks have failed to informed her that 50's is dead, she is under the impression that, only Elvis was Dead, not his music.

Once the technology arrives, to receive net radio in cars (and we know thats right around the corner, thanks to NOKIO), the antiquated Commercial Oldies Formula will be Rock and Roll History.

This is Pal Al saying "it's just goodnight, not goodbye"..............Alan Freed Lives !!!!!!!!!

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Just how much of a salary is Diana J making on the 'net anyway? OR is it just a hobby??

Regarding "charts" the only charts I go by is my own personal charts of the day. Which is why every now and then I would have a song like "Yellow River" - Christie make #1 on my chart. I'm sure there's plenty of others out there that did the same thing as me in the 60s and 70s.

 

[davideduardo]

Bravo Bravo Bravo.............. I got the exact responses I expected to hear !!!!!! What ever the reason (and I still think my blasting of the 800 song rotation is the root, and yes, i did repeat it over and over) this Oldies Radio formula was genius in 1972........35 years later it sucks, Triple the library. Quadruple the library. Even the A......Z you mention is stilll too many TOP 20, ,yeah, they thow in an occasional #55, big deal. please don't make me say it, ok i will, How many times do I have to hear STISFACTION or SHERRY.

Your points on 60's songs are moot. Stations are dropping the 60's stuff because it brings in 55+, which in transactinal markets is unsalable.

On the other hand, list size is determined by the listeners. If there are 500 songs that "pass muster" and the station plays 1000, they will fail miserably. Most of us who are in radio and have been since those 60's songs were currents have either made the big list mistake ourselves or seen it happen... and now we know better.

I had a gold based station that played 450 songs. A competitor came with 1,800 songs, and made a point of mentioning that every few songs! We had a 20 share before the competitor. A year later, the competitor, who got to an impressive 1.8 share, left the format and we still had a 20 share. When we did research, listeners gave US the variety image, and "bad music" was the image of the station with the near-2000 song list (all of which had been "charting hits.")

Commercail Oldies Radio is Dying ...........EXCEPT ON THE INTRA-NET. And I have Proof that listeners want and will support bigger playlist !!!!!! " BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME "

Commercial radio can not do 60's oldies in any but smaller markets. So those geezers who like the music still (most have moved on) can use the web or satellite or iPods to listen to the McCoys and the Cowsills.

This is Pal Al saying "it's just goodnight, not goodbye"..............Alan Freed Lives !!!!!!!!!

It's interesting that your hero is the near-inventor of payola or too-close-for-comfort record industry relationships... the ones that made most 50's and 60's era charts so inaccurate.

 

[palalwanabe]

Did I stutter Edwardo......... I already told your way of thinking and statistics is the root of a Dying Commercial Oldies Radio .....now, where did you dispute my point that it's guys like you ...Not the "Buggles" (I'm not sure you won't catch the reference ,cause it didn't make the Top 40, actually it peaked at #40) killed the Radio Star. With your antiqauted hogwash. Nobody's had a 20 share since George Wilson and that was 30 years ago.

Alan Freed had the cajones to play what the listeners wanted (wheter he was taking money for not, is not the point) the point is, if Alan Freed had listened to you ...we'd still be listening to Patti Page and Eddie Fisher. (With all due respect to Patti Page, she is a friend of mine, and a super nice lady)

And If Alan Freed was still around we would'nt be In this mess.

Superradiofan....See, now there you go, Asking about Dianna J salary, skirting the issue that in 2008 she gets it and you still think JIMMY CARTER IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. Her station is fresh and exciting and creative and entertaining (and if i had a nickel; for everytime of heard your rethoric) soon, she, That's right, the lady that doesnt get paid , will be putting commercial Radio out of business.

Again........... proudly in the words of Alan Freed "This Is just Goodnight and not Goodbye"

 

[davideduardo]

Did I stutter Edwardo......... I already told your way of thinking and statistics is the root of a Dying Commercial Oldies Radio .....now, where did you dispute my point that it's guys like you ...Not the "Buggles" (I'm not sure you won't catch the reference ,cause it didn't make the Top 40, actually it peaked at #40) killed the Radio Star. With your antiqauted hogwash. Nobody's had a 20 share since George Wilson and that was 30 years ago.

Emmis' Mega 98.3 had a pretty consistent 18 to 22 share from 2000 till 2004 when, unable to create a cluster, they sold out of the market. The cume was, by the way, at one point the highest in the Western Hemisphere at over 4 million.

Alan Freed had the cajones

He had cardboard boxes or containers? Bizarre.

to play what the listeners wanted (wheter he was taking money for not, is not the point) the point is, if Alan Freed had listened to you ...we'd still be listening to Patti Page and Eddie Fisher. (With all due respect to Patti Page, she is a friend of mine, and a super nice lady)

I listened to Alan Freed, and from week to week nearly half the songs changed, replaced by ones that were totally unfamiliar, some of which were major . Of course, the ones that were big hits made those of us in his first Cleveland audiences sit through the drek and stiffs. And that was the way of Top 40. Those of us who wanted the rocking pop songs had to sit through Dominco Modugno and Frank Sinatra and Ferlin Husky and Patsy Kilen and the other things we hated, because there were no alternatives in many markets.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

SuperRadioFan....See, now there you go, Asking about Dianna J salary, skirting the issue that in 2008 she gets it and you still think JIMMY CARTER IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. Her station is fresh and exciting and creative and entertaining (and if i had a nickel for every time I heard your rethoric) soon, she, that's right, the lady that doesnt get paid, will be putting commercial radio out of business.

Huh?? You are making NO sense LOL!! What the hell does Jimmy Carter have to do with anything? (Besides the point more appropriate for the Off The Air board that Jimmy's probably going to enjoy his "2nd term" starting in January. <shud-d-d-er> )

The lady doesn't get paid so it IS a hobby and until it's professional (she gets paid for what she does) she's going to have the same influence on commercial radio as a flea on an elephant. Oh and if she ever did get paid she'd have influence just like a fly would have influence on an elephant.

 

[cyberdad]

Bravo, David.

Best put down since "Positively 4th Street"

(which, unfortunately...being from 1965...doesn't test well, brings in the wrong type of demo....etc.)

 

[oldies76]

[EDIT-reference to deleted material]

Depends on what station you are tuning in to. "Like a Rolling Stone" still airs locally.

Why are you guys so against programming to 55+? It's a demo that will, someday, want it's music..music they remember. Do you really think they'll (55+) put up with hearing late 70's and 80's? The boomers will want it soon enough..they're millions upon millions of them.

 

[davideduardo]

Why are you guys so against programming to 55+? It's a demo that will, someday, want it's music..music they remember. Do you really think they'll (55+) put up with hearing late 70's and 80's? The boomers will want it soon enough..they're millions upon millions of them.

This thread now has 18 pages. As a poster said yesterday, every point has been made about 10 times. You might read back a few pages and get the explanation you need.

In essence, major advertisers, through their ad agencies, do not buy 55+ audiences. This is not because there are not lots of 55+ persons, or because they are thought to have little money. It's because there is no return on the investment of money when advertising to this group because it takes more ads to get older consumers to change their buying patterns, so there is no profit in it.

 

[oldies76]

I had a gold based station that played 450 songs. A competitor came with 1,800 songs, and made a point of mentioning that every few songs! We had a 20 share before the competitor. A year later, the competitor, who got to an impressive 1.8 share, left the format and we still had a 20 share. When we did research, listeners gave US the variety image, and "bad music" was the image of the station with the near-2000 song list (all of which had been "charting hits.")

How long ago was this?

 

[davideduardo]

I had a gold based station that played 450 songs. A competitor came with 1,800 songs, and made a point of mentioning that every few songs! We had a 20 share before the competitor. A year later, the competitor, who got to an impressive 1.8 share, left the format and we still had a 20 share. When we did research, listeners gave US the variety image, and "bad music" was the image of the station with the near-2000 song list (all of which had been "charting hits.")

How long ago was this?

About 5 years ago.

 

[gr8oldies]

How many of these internet stations have more than 10 listeners?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

How many of these internet stations have more than 10 listeners?

Diana J's.... She has 11 listeners that we know of (PalAl has a big family)

 

[firepoint525]

What you are saying here is absolutely FALSE. Those "charts" are the only way to measure how a song did in it's day (as compared to other years). They were under the best methodologies that were available then. The only gripe I have are the changes made in chart methodologies in the early 90's (due to the 45's demise) that caused songs to chart longer (as compared to the pre-90's music) and stay at number one much longer, like "One Sweet Day"....16 weeks at #1

This is not entirely true. You have tried to tie together two totally unrelated events. What happened was that, back around 1989, Billboard began to track sales of cassette singles, when they became the preferred format of choice, after singles that were not available on 45s started making the charts.

Then, for the week ending November 30, 1991 (the week of my 28th birthday, no less!), Billboard started tracking sales using data provided by Broadcast Data Systems (BDS) and SoundScan. It was this use of data from BDS and SoundScan that resulted in songs having much longer runs on the charts.

This is actually bad news for the generation that came of age in the '90s and '00s. (Generation Y? Generation Z?) Because their music spent so long on the charts, there was obviously less turnover on the charts, and thus fewer songs were able to make the charts. Because, obviously, the top 40 was never expanded to become the "top 50" or anything like that, so there is still room for only 40 songs in the top 40 at any given time. What this means is that fewer songs make the 40 in any given year now, compared to the '60s, '70s, and '80s. When music from the '90s and beyond gets to be "oldies," there won't be even as much music to choose from as we have had, because there have been fewer "hits" in years since the '90s. But if the current generation is getting their music from sources other than radio, that won't make a difference anymore anyway.

 

[cyberdad]

[EDIT-reference to deleted material]

Depends on what station you are tuning in to. "Like a Rolling Stone" still airs locally.

Why are you guys so against programming to 55+? It's a demo that will, someday, want it's music..music they remember. Do you really think they'll (55+) put up with hearing late 70's and 80's? The boomers will want it soon enough..they're millions upon millions of them.

First of all "Positively 4th Street" is not "Like a Rolling Stone".

Secondly, regarding 55+, as David says, all the points made in this thread have been made at least ten times before. They all boil down to lack of advertiser interest. Perhaps that's unfortunate. Perhaps its even wrong. But it is what it is.

If you like traditional 50s and 60s oldies, get an Ipod, satelite radio, and/or find a high quality online stream. The choices...and the audio quality...are more and better than when that music was current. We can lament the loss of a certain type of music on commercial terrestial radio. But the fact of the matter is that there may have been two or three choices for top 40 music for most of us in the sixties versus dozens for the same stuff today. Who's complaining?

That's the reality, and I have to confess with all due respect that I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

 

[KFodor]

[EDIT-reference to deleted material]

Depends on what station you are tuning in to. "Like a Rolling Stone" still airs locally.

Why are you guys so against programming to 55+? It's a demo that will, someday, want it's music..music they remember. Do you really think they'll (55+) put up with hearing late 70's and 80's? The boomers will want it soon enough..they're millions upon millions of them.

First of all "Positively 4th Street" is not "Like a Rolling Stone".

Secondly, regarding 55+, as David says, all the points made in this thread have been made at least ten times before. They all boil down to lack of advertiser interest. Perhaps that's unfortunate. Perhaps its even wrong. But it is what it is.

If you like traditional 50s and 60s oldies, get an Ipod, satelite radio, and/or find a high quality online stream. The choices...and the audio quality...are more and better than when that music was current. We can lament the loss of a certain type of music on commercial terrestial radio. But the fact of the matter is that there may have been two or three choices for top 40 music for most of us in the sixties versus dozens for the same stuff today. Who's complaining?

That's the reality, and I have to confess with all due respect that I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Unfortunately, there are some people who want to believe that:

Radio stations are run by young people who hate oldies.

Radio managements don't understand that people over 55 have the most money.

These same people, unfortunately, are unable to make the connection between what's happening with the original oldies format today...with what happened to Beautiful Music about 20 years ago.

And facts are facts: Beautiful Music went away because the audience grew out of the age group advertisers wanted to reach. That's what's happening with oldies now...and will happen with Classic Rock next.

I suspect most of the people doing the most complaining here have never worked inside a radio station, never cracked a mike switch. If they had, they would understand this.

I work for a station that was a Beautiful Music station 20 years ago. Believe it or not, we still get calls from 80-somethings wanting to know why we took "the good music station" away.