Thunderstorms wreak havoc with MY reception!

[Mike Walker]

Here's the WOR HD Radio page http://www.wor710.com/pages/48772.php

There's less there than there was, but they proclaim "710 WOR HD" on their homepage.

Who the hell do people think devised the HD Radio technology if not engineers? NON-ENGINEERS here sure as hell don't often grasp the mathematics and science involved. If they did, there wouldn't be so many foolish posts. Shoehorning 20khz stereo digital audio into a band where stations are ten freakin' kilohertz apart, while maintaining the analog channel with zero interference may well be "the impossible dream". COULD YOU DO IT? The fact that they have had some degree of success speaks volumes about the calibre of engineering involved!

AM HD may well have been an impossible thing for the FCC to ask, but we did get a system that WORKS, even if it causes problems (which may well doom it in the end, who knows?) But this is rf and digital engineering on a MASSIVE scale, and anyone who denies that doesn't understand the subject matter enough to be credible. The digital radio systems (FM and AM) we have now are the result of nearly two decades of research by many of the most gifted minds in our industry. NOBODY should minimize that!

 

[clouseau]

Here's the WOR HD Radio page http://www.wor710.com/pages/48772.php


There's less there than there was, but they proclaim "710 WOR HD" on their homepage.

Radiopilot pointed this out. There used to be more, but I don't see it any longer.

Who the hell do people think devised the HD Radio technology if not engineers?

This really may be the 400 Lb Gorilla in the "Engineers don't like it" thought. It wasn't invented by General Mangers, I would think.

The digital radio systems (FM and AM) we have now are the result of nearly two decades of research by many of the most gifted minds in our industry. NOBODY should minimize that!

I would agree with that. Like it or not, it was a long effort.

Clouseau

 

[Chuck]

The fact, as has been pointed out earlier, is that a 40 watt digital signal at 40 miles is pretty impressive (a mile per watt). Hard to say it "doesn't work", or "won't work on low powered stations".

To me, a "40 watt" signal 40 miles miles away is pretty amazing.

Clouseau

It certainly is. In this case, the originating station's analog signal is 4000 watts, which assuming decent antenna height and no co-channel interference, should go that far as well. The problem is a lot of stations are a lot less power than that. Somewhere, I fear there is a point of diminishing returns. I'd love to be proven wrong, but how far do you think 2.5 watts from a "maximum power" translator will go? Clouseau should be interested in that too.

 

[Mike Walker]

I honestly have no idea, Chuck. ALL of my expectations for coverage by HD on FM have been exceeded thusfar. But since analog isn't going away, if some translators can't adequately cover their service area with a digital signal, SO WHAT? There will always be an analog fallback.

 

[Chuck]

I honestly have no idea, Chuck. ALL of my expectations for coverage by HD on FM have been exceeded thusfar. But since analog isn't going away, if some translators can't adequately cover their service area with a digital signal, SO WHAT? There will always be an analog fallback.

True, but if you go to the trouble to come up with secondary HD programming on your primary channel, it would make good economic sense to convert the translator too. I suppose it depends on how many people listen via translator. If the translator is in a good size city, it could be a very significant number of people. Not all translators are in rural areas. There are quite a few if them in the top 100 markets. I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one or two in New York City. I know they exist in Dallas and Houston, which are not small markets.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I honestly have no idea, Chuck. ALL of my expectations for coverage by HD on FM have been exceeded thusfar. But since analog isn't going away, if some translators can't adequately cover their service area with a digital signal, SO WHAT? There will always be an analog fallback.

True, but if you go to the trouble to come up with secondary HD programming on your primary channel, it would make good economic sense to convert the translator too. I suppose it depends on how many people listen via translator. If the translator is in a good size city, it could be a very significant number of people. Not all translators are in rural areas. There are quite a few if them in the top 100 markets. I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one or two in New York City. I know they exist in Dallas and Houston, which are not small markets.

The closest translator to NYC is in Ft Lee NJ. It runs religeous programing and has no audience. In it's former life it was used as an originating point for a big band format. Here's what the FCC had to say;

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Orders/1997/fcc97137.txt

And here's what finally happened;

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Orders/2000/fcc00245.txt


There is also a low power booster which I am not sure if it's running or not, for WFUV. It is supposed to give the station better penetration to the south. In reality no one in NYC listens to translators. They aren't usually needed in urban areas like NYC.

 

[Chuck]

I'd heard about the Ft. Lee station. If I recall my geography correctly, you can see Manhattan across the river from Ft. Lee. It is on the New Jersey side of the George Washington Bridge, isn't it? I suspect that it does get a signal into town. Usually, if you can see it, you can hear it.

There was a write up about this station in Radio World a while back. I believe that it actually had a loyal listenership when it was breaking the rules and operating as an origination station. If it ran something people wanted to listen to, it could show up again on the ratings. The fact that it now is a religious translator has nothing to do with whether or not HD is technically viable for such a station.

In your neck of he woods, it is hard to say "Nobody Listens" even if the translator (or any station) never shows up as a blip on any ratings. There are very few places on earth with more population density than New York City. There are more people living in some apartment buildings in NYC than there are in a lot of small towns that have viable local radio stations. A station that only has a few hundred listeners can still be a viable investment. Sure, it may be the only "Hebrew-Chinese" language station in the area, but if it may not take that many listeners to justify it's existence. Then again not all small radio id done for profit motives. A lot of stations,, especially the ones on the left hand of the dial, exist for reasons that have nothing to do with money.

As for the booster station, I'd think if the originating station went HD, the booster would be pretty well obligated to do the same. Otherwise very strange things should happen as you drive from one area to another. As I recall, WFUV is a well-respected NPR station that is operated by Fordham University. I’m fairly certain that people listen to it. I would, if it were in my area. NPR is depending on HD to work for multiple audio streams. That is the whole idea of their “Tomorrow Radio” project. It will be interesting to see what happens with their fill in booster. I’ll bet that getting that to work right in HD is going a very big technical challenge. I’m sure it can be done. I’d be most interested in learning about it.

Back to my original point, translators are everywhere, even the Big Apple. How they will work with HD remains to be seen.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I'd heard about the Ft. Lee station. If I recall my geography correctly, you can see Manhattan across the river from Ft. Lee. It is on the New Jersey side of the George Washington Bridge, isn't it? I suspect that it does get a signal into town. Usually, if you can see it, you can hear it.

There was a write up about this station in Radio World a while back. I believe that it actually had a loyal listenership when it was breaking the rules and operating as an origination station. If it ran something people wanted to listen to, it could show up again on the ratings. The fact that it now is a religious translator has nothing to do with whether or not HD is technically viable for such a station.

In your neck of he woods, it is hard to say "Nobody Listens" even if the translator (or any station) never shows up as a blip on any ratings. There are very few places on earth with more population density than New York City. There are more people living in some apartment buildings in NYC than there are in a lot of small towns that have viable local radio stations. A station that only has a few hundred listeners can still be a viable investment. Sure, it may be the only "Hebrew-Chinese" language station in the area, but if it may not take that many listeners to justify it's existence. Then again not all small radio id done for profit motives. A lot of stations,, especially the ones on the left hand of the dial, exist for reasons that have nothing to do with money.

As for the booster station, I'd think if the originating station went HD, the booster would be pretty well obligated to do the same. Otherwise very strange things should happen as you drive from one area to another. As I recall, WFUV is a well-respected NPR station that is operated by Fordham University. I’m fairly certain that people listen to it. I would, if it were in my area. NPR is depending on HD to work for multiple audio streams. That is the whole idea of their “Tomorrow Radio” project. It will be interesting to see what happens with their fill in booster. I’ll bet that getting that to work right in HD is going a very big technical challenge. I’m sure it can be done. I’d be most interested in learning about it.

Back to my original point, translators are everywhere, even the Big Apple. How they will work with HD remains to be seen.

The Ft Lee translator does not cover most of Manhattan. Once you get past the west side forget it. By the time you get to midtown (which is a few blocks to the east), they're gone. FM in Manhattan is tough. With all of the skyscrapers, even commercial stations can have trouble. The station started off trying to reach an audience in NYC. They ended up playing infommercials much of the time because they couldn't sell the limited signal they had. Besides the Ft Lee translator, they had another translator in Mt Ivy NY. The station is not the only christian religous broadcaster in NYC. It's competing with WMCA, WWDJ (Salem), WAWZ (Pillar of fire), WFME (Family radio), Spanish WWRV (Radio Vision Cristiana),. If they have 100 listeners I'd be surprised, especially since they can only be heard wel in Ft Lee, NJ. As far as WFUV is concerned, the booster was supposed to be synch'd on 90.7 Mhz to fill in their signal to the south (they are 50 KW directional and running HD 1 & 2). They may have decided to forget it when they finally moved their transmitter to a new site in the Bronx. WFUV has a decent audience but I don't think its quite what WNYC's audience is and basically WFUV is folk music radio during the week. On weekends they do a lor of Irish music programming and some other specialty programs. NY is one of the few markets with 2 non commercial, no religeous radio stations in the commercial FM band (WNYC & WBAI).

 

[Chuck]

New York is obviously a very unique market. There is no getting around that. The extreme density of buildings would make almost any kind of radio very difficult. Even so, a lot of stations would sell their first born for a potential audience as big as this translator has, even if that is just the people living in high rises that face the river along the Henry Hudson Parkway. Let's just count the people with a view of the river. Forget about the people along Broadway, or even the people who live on the east side of the building. This thing is only 10 watts, so it is not going to penetrate through very many buildings. But it will go through glass, and there is a lot of that in the neighborhood. Unless a lot has changed since I last visited the City, there are a LOT of people who live in those apartments.

Most translators will do 10-15 miles, line of sight as analog stations. The question is what will happen if they try to broadcast in HD? Since this translator is only 10 watts, and HD is limited to 1/100 of the analog ERP, I think we can all guess the answer, but maybe not. Keep in mind that their analog coverage should get you up to Yonkers and at least to the Financial District to the south. It also should cover a very heavily populated area in New Jersey including Union City, Hackensack, Teaneck and northward to almost the New Jersey - NY state line. In fact, Radio-Locator bears out my suspicions: http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=W276AQ&service=FX&status=L&hours=U

I’m not saying that reception will be awesome in all those places, but it should be adequate. Again, that is a lot of people, even if someone standing on the corner of 57th and 7th can't pick up a darned thing.

If you can't get some listeners with something like that, you'd have to be broadcasting dead air. The fact that this particular translator may be broadcasting something with roughly the same appeal as dead air really has nothing to do with the question of whether HD will work on a translator or not. Just because you have no use for the station does not mean that everyone, including the translator’s owner or operator feel that way.

 

[R.F. Burns]

New York is obviously a very unique market. There is no getting around that. The extreme density of buildings would make almost any kind of radio very difficult. Even so, a lot of stations would sell their first born for a potential audience as big as this translator has, even if that is just the people living in high rises that face the river along the Henry Hudson Parkway. Let's just count the people with a view of the river. Forget about the people along Broadway, or even the people who live on the east side of the building. This thing is only 10 watts, so it is not going to penetrate through very many buildings. But it will go through glass, and there is a lot of that in the neighborhood. Unless a lot has changed since I last visited the City, there are a LOT of people who live in those apartments.

Most translators will do 10-15 miles, line of sight as analog stations. The question is what will happen if they try to broadcast in HD? Since this translator is only 10 watts, and HD is limited to 1/100 of the analog ERP, I think we can all guess the answer, but maybe not. Keep in mind that their analog coverage should get you up to Yonkers and at least to the Financial District to the south. It also should cover a very heavily populated area in New Jersey including Union City, Hackensack, Teaneck and northward to almost the New Jersey - NY state line. In fact, Radio-Locator bears out my suspicions: http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=W276AQ&service=FX&status=L&hours=U

I’m not saying that reception will be awesome in all those places, but it should be adequate. Again, that is a lot of people, even if someone standing on the corner of 57th and 7th can't pick up a darned thing.

If you can't get some listeners with something like that, you'd have to be broadcasting dead air. The fact that this particular translator may be broadcasting something with roughly the same appeal as dead air really has nothing to do with the question of whether HD will work on a translator or not. Just because you have no use for the station does not mean that everyone, including the translator’s owner or operator feel that way.

"This image is intended solely for entertainment purposes. Radio-Locator makes no claims as to the accuracy of this information, nor towards its suitability for any intended purpose."


If that translator had that kind of coverage they'd be thrilled beyond words. Funny thing is that WRKL in their filling against WCBS used Radio Locator maps too, overlooking the disclaimer which I posted above. You're correct NYC is unique in many ways. I am not saying that translators have no audiences. They are designed to fill holes and in this market filled with high powered stations, there are no holes.

 

[clouseau]

The problem is a lot of stations are a lot less power than that. Somewhere, I fear there is a point of diminishing returns. I'd love to be proven wrong, but how far do you think 2.5 watts from a "maximum power" translator will go? Clouseau should be interested in that too.

You know, It seems to me that we might be looking at this from the wrong perspective.

While true that 2.5 watts is 1/100th of the power of a full power translator, does that really matter? HD is supposed to sork our to the 60 dbu contour and beyond. We have some pretty serious anecdotal evidence that it does that.

When I look at a spectrum analyzer, I see the Digital sidebands have about the same Amplitude as RDS. RDS works.

I know that DTV has much lower power levels than analog TV. DTV Works.

I know that with a traditional car antenna, HD in cars seems to work. (Mobile DXers aside)

Here's my take. It would be REAL EASY for me to sit here and type that HD works in the translator environment. I'm not going to do that. I think it OUGHT to work. In fact the only reason I can think of that it shouldn't work is "It's 2.5 watts."

I would really like to see this is action on a translator. And I'd really like to NOT pay $10 of my moeny plus equipment for the demo.

It's a little like FMeXtra. I got a "They're doing it at a station in this state" and It's being used as an STL somewhere else. I never quite got to the "Call Bob Blank at WXXX in Anyville". Maybe it was there, but It didin't happen for me.

Same deal here with Ibiquity. I'm not seeing the "It's on K209XX in High Fidelity, NM" It might be out there on translators, but I can't find it.

BTW I'm 4 days since I sent a sales inquiry to Ibiquity.

No Answer, yet. Maybe DRE tipped them off that I'm a pest.

Clouseau

 

[Chuck]

"This image is intended solely for entertainment purposes. Radio-Locator makes no claims as to the accuracy of this information, nor towards its suitability for any intended purpose."

Yes, it is just pretty pictures, but I've noticed that they do come fairly close to reflecting reality on most low power stations that I am very familiar with. We could do a Longly-Rice survey, but I think that would be a waste of time for this discussion.

I'll stand by my statement that most translators can do 10-15 miles line of sight. As soon as large structures or geography interferes, all bets are off.

If that translator had that kind of coverage they'd be thrilled beyond words. Funny thing is that WRKL in their filling against WCBS used Radio Locator maps too, overlooking the disclaimer which I posted above. You're correct NYC is unique in many ways. I am not saying that translators have no audiences. They are designed to fill holes and in this market filled with high powered stations, there are no holes.

You may have no holes for translators in NYC, but there are a ton of them on the air in other parts of the country. Your post has little or nothing to do with my original question about whether HD will work well on translators.

 

[Chuck]

I would really like to see this is action on a translator. And I'd really like to NOT pay $10 of my moeny plus equipment for the demo.

Me too. If it actually works, I'll be the first to say, "I'm impressed." But as you say, the nagging fear is the low power aspect of 2.5 watts or less. Will that be able to penetrate buildings?

You are correct about RDS working. We're running RDS through a 45-watt translator and it works fine. You can get the RDS display anywhere you can get a decent analog signal. I think the answer is the RDS is a LOT smaller data stream.

I guess we'll see, but I'd love to see it in action. At the TAB convention last summer when they were talking about the HD translator on a university campus (I think it was Rice University) the presenter said that it's coverage in HD was "adequate to serve the campus." I think he was being very careful in saying anything about having coverage past that point. Most university campus situations are easily covered with a signal that reaches about a mile. Maybe I'm putting words in his mouth.

Like you, I'd like a demo. I don't think anyone should have to spend a fortune to find out that it simply won't work.

 

[R.F. Burns]

"This image is intended solely for entertainment purposes. Radio-Locator makes no claims as to the accuracy of this information, nor towards its suitability for any intended purpose."

Yes, it is just pretty pictures, but I've noticed that they do come fairly close to reflecting reality on most low power stations that I am very familiar with. We could do a Longly-Rice survey, but I think that would be a waste of time for this discussion.

I'll stand by my statement that most translators can do 10-15 miles line of sight. As soon as large structures or geography interferes, all bets are off.

If that translator had that kind of coverage they'd be thrilled beyond words. Funny thing is that WRKL in their filling against WCBS used Radio Locator maps too, overlooking the disclaimer which I posted above. You're correct NYC is unique in many ways. I am not saying that translators have no audiences. They are designed to fill holes and in this market filled with high powered stations, there are no holes.

You may have no holes for translators in NYC, but there are a ton of them on the air in other parts of the country. Your post has little or nothing to do with my original question about whether HD will work well on translators.

My comment was in response to your statement that even NYC has translators.

 

[Chuck]

My comment was in response to your statement that even NYC has translators.

Well, what I said was, "I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one or two in New York City. I know they exist in Dallas and Houston, which are not small markets."

It seems that you do have them, since you can easily see Manhattan from Ft. Lee. Even if you had none, it still doesn't answer the question "Will HD work on translators." That is my unanswered question. Like them or not, there are a lot of translators out there.

 

[R.F. Burns]

My comment was in response to your statement that even NYC has translators.

Well, what I said was, "I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one or two in New York City. I know they exist in Dallas and Houston, which are not small markets."

It seems that you do have them, since you can easily see Manhattan from Ft. Lee. Even if you had none, it still doesn't answer the question "Will HD work on translators." That is my unanswered question. Like them or not, there are a lot of translators out there.

The answer is that HD will work with translators but translators are afforded no protection from interference.

 

[Chuck]

My comment was in response to your statement that even NYC has translators.

Well, what I said was, "I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one or two in New York City. I know they exist in Dallas and Houston, which are not small markets."

It seems that you do have them, since you can easily see Manhattan from Ft. Lee. Even if you had none, it still doesn't answer the question "Will HD work on translators." That is my unanswered question. Like them or not, there are a lot of translators out there.

The answer is that HD will work with translators but translators are afforded no protection from interference.

I'm aware of translators’ limitations regarding having to accept interference, but that has little to do with the real question. Perhaps, I should have been more specific and said "Is putting HD on a translator worth the trouble." For most of us, it isn’t at this juncture, but if this takes off like wildfire as some predict, then it is a good idea to plan for the future. Right now, a lot of NPR stations are running HD, and many of them have large translator networks. I think they will be interested right now, so it is a valid question

We know HD works OK on FM to a station's 64 dbu contour, and perhaps a bit beyond. We can assume that if we plot the coverage contour of the translator, you should be able to receive HD on a radio whose antenna is within that contour. I think we can all agree on that.

I’m sure it will work outdoors, but what happens if the radio is inside a building? Will there be enough signal to penetrate through normal building construction at that point? I doubt that it will, but I honestly don't know. I'd like to find out. As much as I enjoy a good science project, don’t want to have to pay for finding out, especially at Ibiquity’s rates. I think they owe everyone a few demonstrations.

The building penetration problem (or maybe lack of problem) is what bothers me. As much as we talk about people using outdoor antennas, the realist in me says that not very many people will go to that extreme. If they can't receive the translator’s HD signal on a radio that has a built in whip antenna (like the Sangean) or worse yet a line cord or rat tail antenna like the BA, then the concept has less merit.

The only thing I have to compare it with is the fact that I know that my cell phone works great outside my office, but when I get into the "inner sanctum" areas, it is questionable at best. And I can see the tower from the front door of the building. I think we are talking about similar power levels here, albeit at different frequencies, which may make a big difference. If I'm not mistaken most cell phones are about 1/3 of a watt. Now perhaps, 2.5 watts might work great but not all translators are 250 watts analog. Many are considerably less.

I don't know the ultimate answer and I doubt that you know for sure either. I'd love to find out.

 

[clouseau]

Perhaps, I should have been more specific and said "Is putting HD on a translator worth the trouble."

This is the $64000 question. (Or is that the $10,000 question)

I may chase this tomorrow. It ought to be out there SOMEWHERE.

Clouseau

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Great question about translators... The city-grade coverage area for translators is typically pretty small, and translators' outer contours get hammered pretty often and easily by weather-related co-channel interference. If the HD signals only cover about 60% of the city-grade coverage area, it might not be worth it. Unless, as was suggested on another thread, iBiquity elects to do a "all translators / one price" deal.

 

[R.F. Burns]

My comment was in response to your statement that even NYC has translators.

Well, what I said was, "I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised to find one or two in New York City. I know they exist in Dallas and Houston, which are not small markets."

It seems that you do have them, since you can easily see Manhattan from Ft. Lee. Even if you had none, it still doesn't answer the question "Will HD work on translators." That is my unanswered question. Like them or not, there are a lot of translators out there.

The answer is that HD will work with translators but translators are afforded no protection from interference.

I'm aware of translators’ limitations regarding having to accept interference, but that has little to do with the real question. Perhaps, I should have been more specific and said "Is putting HD on a translator worth the trouble." For most of us, it isn’t at this juncture, but if this takes off like wildfire as some predict, then it is a good idea to plan for the future. Right now, a lot of NPR stations are running HD, and many of them have large translator networks. I think they will be interested right now, so it is a valid question

We know HD works OK on FM to a station's 64 dbu contour, and perhaps a bit beyond. We can assume that if we plot the coverage contour of the translator, you should be able to receive HD on a radio whose antenna is within that contour. I think we can all agree on that.

I’m sure it will work outdoors, but what happens if the radio is inside a building? Will there be enough signal to penetrate through normal building construction at that point? I doubt that it will, but I honestly don't know. I'd like to find out. As much as I enjoy a good science project, don’t want to have to pay for finding out, especially at Ibiquity’s rates. I think they owe everyone a few demonstrations.

The building penetration problem (or maybe lack of problem) is what bothers me. As much as we talk about people using outdoor antennas, the realist in me says that not very many people will go to that extreme. If they can't receive the translator’s HD signal on a radio that has a built in whip antenna (like the Sangean) or worse yet a line cord or rat tail antenna like the BA, then the concept has less merit.

The only thing I have to compare it with is the fact that I know that my cell phone works great outside my office, but when I get into the "inner sanctum" areas, it is questionable at best. And I can see the tower from the front door of the building. I think we are talking about similar power levels here, albeit at different frequencies, which may make a big difference. If I'm not mistaken most cell phones are about 1/3 of a watt. Now perhaps, 2.5 watts might work great but not all translators are 250 watts analog. Many are considerably less.

I don't know the ultimate answer and I doubt that you know for sure either. I'd love to find out.

At this point other than doing HD on a translator for experimental reasons, I can't see the benefit for spending the money on moving to IBOC. It would be a great time however to have special rules written for translators concerning the percentage of digital to analog RF. Due to the very limited coverage provided by translators maybe a 250 watt translator could transmit 50 watts of digital power or some mathematical calculation where the digital coverage would be 100% of the analog signal.