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Time to reconsider AM stereo?

badjef said:
As I said in my rantpost, Radio Disney is there for park promotion only.

Actually, it is there for Disney brand promotion, not park promotion. It's a lot like ESPN radio, which gnerally is not the hottest thing in sports radio but which reinforces the ESPN name as being present in all aspects of sports.

The Radio Disney brand is used for radio stations in many of the countries of Latin America, but those are not kids stations as there is very little "kid music" and such in Spanish. Instead, the stations are generally AC (music mostly in English), aimed at parents who are upscale and who might buy Disney DVDs, take kids to Disney movies, or buy Disney merchandise in Quito or Guatemala City or Bs. As.

Again, it is brand enhancement tailored to the economy and market.
 
badjef said:
As I said in my rantpost, Radio Disney is there for park promotion only.

The mouse wants to bring everybody to Disney World for vacation. Deals so attractive, a family need not go or see anything that is not Disney o&o. From cruises to excursions to roller coasters to Disney owned islands off the Florida coast. Every place you turn will be a Disney symbol. It starts with the idea to keep it in sight and mind and that is Radio Disney.

hmmm. Seems to me that a guy named Sarnoff thought of that years ago when he was building a radio network. And a guy named Crosley when he was trying to sell spots at a 500kw AM radio station in Cincy, too.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

As David mentioned, RD is intended for more than just 'Park Promotion'; mainly for the Disney kid-centric movie, artist (Hanna Montana), and product placements. Whether it's had any impact is in debate.

Also to clarify, Sarnoff and Crosley's orginal motivation for radio networks and large stations were to promote and advertise the parent companies products. Secondary advertising came as a premimum. Westinghouse, RCA, Crosely, all made consumer electronic devices, including radios and TV's (Crosely wasn't a big TV manufacturer though), heavily promoting them in the shows. RKO was built to promote RKO movies. It wasn't until the late 1950's, when radio really went out on it's own as a advertising driven, stand-alone business model not focused on just promoting a parent company product.
 
Re: Crosley I had 3 presses to maintain in Erlanger, KY, right by the Cinncinatti airport, They had a Crosley refrigerator with a built-in radio in the platemaking department. Both the radio and fridge still worked just fine in the 1990's. Looked like a late 1930's unit.

And what's wrong with the way AM used to work?
AM 1080 in Chicago...daytimes I could listen to WNWI Valparaiso, IN or WPON Pontiac Illinois, by turning the loop antenna.
Then, at night I had a choice of WTIC Hartford, Conn, or W??? Forth Worth, TX.

Now, it's some foreign language (Bosnian or Serbian) 24hrs a day, and of no use to me whatever.
I miss WRVA, WBAP, KSL, KOMA, WSM, WABC, WRVA , etc, that were just regular stations anyone could hear in Chicago.
I don't need a 24 hour Serbian service. I do need the cheap lamp dimmers to go back to wherever they came from.

No one is interested in a petition to the FCC regarding non-compliant "unintentional" radiators?
 
Tom Wells said:
I don't need a 24 hour Serbian service.

But there are likely local residents numbering in the tens of thousands who do need such a service; that station likely helps that community identify merchants, services and such available to them as well as focusing on content of specific interest to that group.

WRVA contributes nothing but the "cheap thrill" of hearing it to the community you live in, the Chicago community.
 
Tom Wells said:
Re: Crosley I had 3 presses to maintain in Erlanger, KY, right by the Cinncinatti airport, They had a Crosley refrigerator with a built-in radio in the platemaking department. Both the radio and fridge still worked just fine in the 1990's. Looked like a late 1930's unit.

And what's wrong with the way AM used to work?
AM 1080 in Chicago...daytimes I could listen to WNWI Valparaiso, IN or WPON Pontiac Illinois, by turning the loop antenna.
Then, at night I had a choice of WTIC Hartford, Conn, or W??? Forth Worth, TX.

Now, it's some foreign language (Bosnian or Serbian) 24hrs a day, and of no use to me whatever.
I miss WRVA, WBAP, KSL, KOMA, WSM, WABC, WRVA , etc, that were just regular stations anyone could hear in Chicago.
I don't need a 24 hour Serbian service. I do need the cheap lamp dimmers to go back to wherever they came from.

No one is interested in a petition to the FCC regarding non-compliant "unintentional" radiators?

AM 1080 in Chicago is mainly Polish programming provided by PolNet - not Serbian and the language is no closer to Serbian than English is to Danish. There's a very large Polish population in Chicago that is served by that station, so I have to disagree with your comment as much as I'd LOVE to be able to hear Red Sox games on WTIC.

As for WRVA, WBAP and WSM - they come in fine most nights. The very unnecessary WRLL boxes out KSL and KOMA's absence has to do with a format change and their directional signal beaming it farther away from Chicago than (perhaps) in years past. Now, WABC's disappearance from the Chicagoland nighttime dial is thanks to this travesty known as IBOC. Something CAN and SHOULD be done to pull the plug on it's use for nighttime broadcasting on AM.

I have far more issues with "intentional" radiators like IBOC than with dimmers and other household stuff.

DavidEduardo said:
WRVA contributes nothing but the "cheap thrill" of hearing it to the community you live in, the Chicago community.

Ironically, I was listening to WRVA for a little while last night because of it's later (than WIND) feed of the Savage Nation. So it contributed something to me - at least until I decided to listen to something else... :D
 
If it were available today, WRVA would offer nothing more than the cheap thrill of direct reception. At one time it offered unique programming, like all the others.....even if just a jukebox at night, it had its own personality and warmth, and could not be mistaken for KRLD or WWL. WWL had cajun music, WRVA had some deep holler music. WSM was bluegrass, WBAP had a half-nation trucker show of real use to anyone on the road, and WLW put one on years later after Bill Mack went to the bird.

Etc. Etc. Etc. And each new compact flourescent kicks more discontinuous current switching noise back into AC neutrals everywhere.
Why not just call for the abandonment of MW outright? I'm shocked at the lack of response regarding electrical noisemakers.
Televisions made me cranky the 1970's, the color TV's 3.58 Mhz color synch systems made all kinds of whistles in AM MW signals.
My appreciation for industrial music and noises is no doubt influenced by listening to, and really LIKING the sound of 2 or 3 signals
mixing well, and really listening to and enjoying a portion that varied 70-20% of a "desired" signal, vs "what I got". That's not the same as desired/undesired. The wavy, ethereal nature of groundwave and skywave AM is pure magic, whether MW or SW.
I love driving through a weird null on a local huge AM and pondering the current influences on that location.
But not as much as hearing a song I've never heard before, which is somehow causing my "goodmusic" meter to peg, and I don't care where from.
This doesn't make me a dxer, only someone who did realize what we had before it was gone.
Thank God I got to have some really nice hi-fi living-room radios ( a matched pair, at that ) before it was all over.
I have brain-plans to do a high-Q IF-like frequency split-tuned Kahn-ish u/l pt 15 AM stereo that I would mix and upconvert to
1620 and use for the pair on either side of the ( brick, yet-non-functional )fireplace.


Re: WNWI and not speaking all languages...
Perhaps the reason I thought it was Serbian is because the man who bought the station from Valparaiso, In was Serbian, and I'm pretty sure there has been some Chezhnian(sp?) and Serbian brokered time shows. It would be foolish for someone to not cater to the huge Polish audience here. It was nice to hear Valparaiso, though. I miss hearing what the prices paid are at some of the local grain elevators, etc.
 
HowardMBurgers said:
As David mentioned, RD is intended for more than just 'Park Promotion'; mainly for the Disney kid-centric movie, artist (Hanna Montana), and product placements. Whether it's had any impact is in debate.
Ratings intrinsic value to advertising has always been in question. PPM is too new but the loudest critics are those I've had my doubts about anyway. Objectivity does not always feed the pocket.
Also to clarify, Sarnoff and Crosley's orginal motivation for radio networks and large stations were to promote and advertise the parent companies products. Secondary advertising came as a premimum. Westinghouse, RCA, Crosely, all made consumer electronic devices, including radios and TV's (Crosely wasn't a big TV manufacturer though), heavily promoting them in the shows. RKO was built to promote RKO movies. It wasn't until the late 1950's, when radio really went out on it's own as a advertising driven, stand-alone business model not focused on just promoting a parent company product.
If you let yourself be out of sight and mind, not only are you in the twilight zone but also out of operating revenue for your AM station.
Perception has always fed the radio reality.

10-q,
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
badjef said:
Ratings intrinsic value to advertising has always been in question.

That's a vague overstatement. Advertisers have always desired some kind of metric to establish pricing levels, which is why we have circulation audits for print and such. Advertisers know that ratings don't show effectiveness, as the medium is only a small part of the advertising process that includes pricing, availability, distribution, message, need, etc.

PPM is too new

Too new?

By that standard, HDTV, satellite radio and the iPhone and the iPod are too new to a much greater extent.

The PPM has been under development for nearly two decades, and in test since arond 2000, in significant tests since 2002 and currency in some markets for 3 years.

but the loudest critics are those I've had my doubts about anyway. Objectivity does not always feed the pocket.

There are not critics of the methodology, just of the sample design and recruit techniques. Interestingly, Arbitron could solve all the criticisms were radio stations to pay for a more labor intensive recruit process and for a larger sample. But radio won't pay more, yet it blames Arbitron.
 
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
Ratings intrinsic value to advertising has always been in question.

That's a vague overstatement. Advertisers have always desired some kind of metric to establish pricing levels, which is why we have circulation audits for print and such. Advertisers know that ratings don't show effectiveness, as the medium is only a small part of the advertising process that includes pricing, availability, distribution, message, need, etc.

PPM is too new

Too new?

By that standard, HDTV, satellite radio and the iPhone and the iPod are too new to a much greater extent.

The PPM has been under development for nearly two decades, and in test since arond 2000, in significant tests since 2002 and currency in some markets for 3 years.

but the loudest critics are those I've had my doubts about anyway. Objectivity does not always feed the pocket.

There are not critics of the methodology, just of the sample design and recruit techniques. Interestingly, Arbitron could solve all the criticisms were radio stations to pay for a more labor intensive recruit process and for a larger sample. But radio won't pay more, yet it blames Arbitron.
There are not critics of HD radio, just the design and the technique it uses to create unwanted noise up
            and down the dial. Interestingly, CBS, CC, etc., could solve all the criticisms were they to shut off the
            HD for a more sound, and proven analog system. But CBC, CC etc., won't do so, yet it blames power
            lines.
 
I think this whole argument misses the point.

Stereo lends itself to depth perception. Whether it is HD or Kahn or C-(fill in the blank), or any other sytem the future comes up with. FM overtook AM not for fidelity, but for the feeling by the listener that they were filled with the music - be it speakers or under headphones. TV adopted the Zenith system in 1984. The 1st tv program to embrace it was Miami Vice. Just as color was Bonanza.
The fidelity came with FM and less invasive noise.

TV, FM, and AM all could have gone stereo at the same time but again the FCC screwed that up. It was felt TV was too new. AM had enough listeners. FM was given stereo because of the decision to move FM from the 45 to the 88-108mc band and thereby making obsolete the FM radios and stations at the time, not to mention Ch#1.
enough hiostory...

AM stereo allows that over the HD because it is there more often than not, as with Kahn. It was there and stable. HD and C-?, did not do that therefore the market won't accept it and didn't.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
badjef said:
FM overtook AM not for fidelity, but for the feeling by the listener that they were filled with the music - be it speakers or under headphones.

FM overtook AM because there were more good signals in all major markets, there were more formats, and there was a lower commercial load. Fidelity was a little added benefit; even today, most FM listening is not in stereo.

FM was given stereo because of the decision to move FM from the 45 to the 88-108mc band and thereby making obsolete the FM radios and stations at the time, not to mention

FM stereo was not introduced until 1961. The band move occured right after W.W. II.
 
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
FM overtook AM not for fidelity, but for the feeling by the listener that they were filled with the music - be it speakers or under headphones.
FM overtook AM because there were more good signals in all major markets, there were more formats, and there was a lower commercial load. Fidelity was a little added benefit; even today, most FM listening is not in stereo.
It was a novelty. There was NO commercial load at first. It was just there. Automated and tax write-offs. WQXR flirted with separated channels on AM and FM, of course.
There wasn't even a power limitation! - Grand Rapids, Mi. comes to mind.
FM was given stereo because of the decision to move FM from the 45 to the 88-108mc band and thereby making obsolete the FM radios and stations at the time, not to mention

FM stereo was not introduced until 1961. The band move occured right after W.W. II.

Then why didn't AM go stereo at the same time - in 1961? Because the FCC threw the broadcasters "a bone" with the adoption of stereo because of the re-location to 88-108. Remember, the range decreases with stereo transmision and noise increases, too.

They "tried" to do the same thing in 1993 with the x-band.

There was at least the receivers available back then also, which is more than I can say of AM stereo at any time.

Look, if you don't use at least 2 speakers for added dimension, you are swimming against the tide no matter what band you use.

TV is being offered at the CES a 152in 3-D TV from Panasonic, I'm certain they are making sure stereo is included and hooked up and functional.

I am listening to an AM station as I type this on several radios throughout my house. The program is not available on FM1, the HD2 is not reliable from here. It is not meant to be received from my location, I know that going in - but that's me.

At least on FM1, the station would be received in mono with very little discomfort to a listener were the signal that weak.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
badjef said:
FM overtook AM because there were more good signals in all major markets, there were more formats, and there was a lower commercial load. Fidelity was a little added benefit; even today, most FM listening is not in stereo.

It was a novelty. There was NO commercial load at first. It was just there. Automated and tax write-offs. WQXR flirted with separated channels on AM and FM, of course.

While I did not date my "overtook" scenario, I was obviously talking about the decade between the simulcast drop dead year, 1967, and when FM achieved parity, about 1977.

Stations were not novelties. You had several of the first oldies stations live in big markets, such as WMOD in DC, in 1968. You had bad or daytime AM basically moving to FM, like WPGC in 1970. You had the beginnings of the powerful Beautiful Music programmers like SRP and Bonneville shortly thereafter. Independent, standalone FM CHR like WMYQ, WDRQ and KSLQ were on in 72. Progressive rockers like KMET and WNEW and the like began before 1970. Lee Abram's model for Superstars was the station in Raleigh he programmed, WQDR, around 1971 if I remember right.

All these and many more were profitable, but kept spot loads light (Shulke demanded 8 minutes and not a second more), promoted, and innovated.

Even prior to 1967, there were plenty of successful FMs, such as KFOG in SF and what i now WBEB in Philly.

There wasn't even a power limitation! - Grand Rapids, Mi. comes to mind.

There was a power limitation, but it was much higher. We had some 500 kw FMs, including one on Mt Diablo in SF... to put order in the band, the FCC changed to the class system and allocations in the 50s, grandfathering the existing stations. Again, that was a decade before the FCC put the paddles on FM and yelled "clear."

FM stereo was not introduced until 1961. The band move occured right after W.W. II.

Then why didn't AM go stereo at the same time - in 1961?

Probably because nobody cared. The whole concept of stereo was brand new... that was still the era when LPs came in mono and stereo versions, with the stereo one being more costly. Very, very few FMs adopted it in the first few years.

Remember, the count of FM stations in 1950 was about 50% higher than in 1959 at the end of the decade. FM was dying, and not many people cared about what it did. And AM stations were doing fine, and saw no need for some gimmick called stereo.

Because the FCC threw the broadcasters "a bone" with the adoption of stereo because of the re-location to 88-108. Remember, the range decreases with stereo transmision and noise increases, too.

The move to the new band happened 15 years before stereo was authorized. There were less than 75 licenced or experimental stations on FM in 1945; a remedy in 1961 did no even affect most of the original owners..

They "tried" to do the same thing in 1993 with the x-band.

Nope. The X Band was intended to clear many inefficient daytimers and complicated directionals off the under-1610 part of the dial by allowing them to move to the X Band.

TV is being offered at the CES a 152in 3-D TV from Panasonic, I'm certain they are making sure stereo is included and hooked up and functional.

The TV does not even have speakers, apparently, as it needs to be connected to a home theatre system. The idea is to imitate a movie theatre because so many people detest going to theatres today. The comparison does not match.

Most radio is listened to on kitchen and clock radios and little sets in the office. Even if they pretend to be stereo, unless you are a mouse and can fit between the separated-by-3-inches speakers, the listening is not in stereo. In most car situations, road noise and vibration eliminate most of the stereo effect.

Those of us that have been at major stations have noted how many calls we get if the stereo generator is ot, or if we have to feed the transmitter site in mono in an emergency. The number of complaints is generally zero.
 
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
FM overtook AM because there were more good signals in all major markets, there were more formats, and there was a lower commercial load. Fidelity was a little added benefit; even today, most FM listening is not in stereo.

It was a novelty. There was NO commercial load at first. It was just there. Automated and tax write-offs. WQXR flirted with separated channels on AM and FM, of course.

While I did not date my "overtook" scenario, I was obviously talking about the decade between the simulcast drop dead year, 1967, and when FM achieved parity, about 1977.
I must have misread the era to which you were referring. Nevertheless, the simul-bill from Congress almost made NYT sell WQXR then. It was only because of them and WGMS, which just happened to be in DC, the exception to the rule was made.
Stations were not novelties. You had several of the first oldies stations live in big markets, such as WMOD in DC, in 1968. You had bad or daytime AM basically moving to FM, like WPGC in 1970. You had the beginnings of the powerful Beautiful Music programmers like SRP and Bonneville shortly thereafter. Independent, standalone FM CHR like WMYQ, WDRQ and KSLQ were on in 72. Progressive rockers like KMET and WNEW and the like began before 1970. Lee Abram's model for Superstars was the station in Raleigh he programmed, WQDR, around 1971 if I remember right.
Long live "The Mighty Met" with their upsidedown billboards and the 4 hour live Dr. D!
All these and many more were profitable, but kept spot loads light (Shulke demanded 8 minutes and not a second more), promoted, and innovated.

Even prior to 1967, there were plenty of successful FMs, such as KFOG in SF and what is now WBEB in Philly.

There wasn't even a power limitation! - Grand Rapids, Mi. comes to mind.

There was a power limitation, but it was much higher. We had some 500 kw FMs, including one on Mt Diablo in SF... to put order in the band, the FCC changed to the class system and allocations in the 50s, grandfathering the existing stations. Again, that was a decade before the FCC put the paddles on FM and yelled "clear."
There were a few that were grandfathered into those overpowered status in L.A. San Diego's 105.3, I think, until they moved to Mt. Soledad, after being silent for a year and a half, between 1977-1978.
FM stereo was not introduced until 1961. The band move occured right after W.W. II.

Then why didn't AM go stereo at the same time - in 1961?

Probably because nobody cared. The whole concept of stereo was brand new... that was still the era when LPs came in mono and stereo versions, with the stereo one being more costly. Very, very few FMs adopted it in the first few years.

Remember, the count of FM stations in 1950 was about 50% higher than in 1959 at the end of the decade. FM was dying, and not many people cared about what it did. And AM stations were doing fine, and saw no need for some gimmick called stereo.
Right, after floundering in the 50's from the debacle of the 46mc, stereo is what sold FM. Look at the number of FM licenses from 1962 to 1970.
Because the FCC threw the broadcasters "a bone" with the adoption of stereo because of the re-location to 88-108. Remember, the range decreases with stereo transmision and noise increases, too.

The move to the new band happened 15 years before stereo was authorized. There were less than 75 licenced or experimental stations on FM in 1945; a remedy in 1961 did not even affect most of the original owners..
...because of the wasted money put into 46mc.
They "tried" to do the same thing in 1993 with the x-band.

Nope. The X Band was intended to clear many inefficient daytimers and complicated directionals off the under-1610 part of the dial by allowing them to move to the X Band.
Yup. There was a "bone" for the AMers to move. A requirement would be to install stereo equipment or some such wording. It was never inforced to my knowledge.
TV is being offered at the CES a 152in 3-D TV from Panasonic, I'm certain they are making sure stereo is included and hooked up and functional.

The TV does not even have speakers, apparently, as it needs to be connected to a home theatre system. The idea is to imitate a movie theatre because so many people detest going to theatres today. The comparison does not match.
The TV is probably a proto. The consumer unit will probably have them. Gotta have something to watch the crowd roar on ESPN.
Most radio is listened to on kitchen and clock radios and little sets in the office. Even if they pretend to be stereo, unless you are a mouse and can fit between the separated-by-3-inches speakers, the listening is not in stereo. In most car situations, road noise and vibration eliminate most of the stereo effect.
Stereo on FM is a given, now.
Those of us that have been at major stations have noted how many calls we get if the stereo generator is out, or if we have to feed the transmitter site in mono in an emergency. The number of complaints is generally zero.
Probably so, the assumption is that if it is off, there is probably a repair being made and it will be back shortly. I used to call, or stop, if I wasn't that far from the antenna, not for a long time, now. I figure the equipment is too reliable, now. No need to keep an engineer around. Most antenna farms are locked up tight.

Alpine has the "Voice of God" from speakers near the gate. Nasty guard... can't even visit anymore.

The perception on the phones, when they're answered, is usually no different, so why bother?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
...hoping the attitudes of broadcasting changes.
 
badjef said:
There were a few that were grandfathered into those overpowered status in L.A. San Diego's 105.3, I think, until they moved to Mt. Soledad, after being silent for a year and a half, between 1977-1978.

Almost every B in LA is grandfathered. A conforming B on Wilson would be below the power of the lowest powered Wilson FM, which is currently 4.8 kw. There are grandfathered B's in some quantity in the SF bay area, too.

...because of the wasted money put into 46mc.

If you look at the list of stations in 1945, you will see that only a handful of the very few stations even made it into the 50's, let alone to 1961.

Here is the list: http://www.davidgleason.com/Archive Whites/Whites Vol 22 No 4 Fall 1945.pdf

There were less than 60 of them in 1945, many of which were experimental, like Major Armstrong's one at Alpine.

Stereo on FM is a given, now.

Most listening is in mono because most radios are little mono radios in the kitchen and the bedroom.

Probably so, the assumption is that if it is off, there is probably a repair being made and it will be back shortly.

Since most radios don't even have a stereo light, how would they know it is off? And on those little clock radios with speakers milimeters apart, nobody can tell the difference.
 
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
...because of the wasted money put into 46mc.

If you look at the list of stations in 1945, you will see that only a handful of the very few stations even made it into the 50's, let alone to 1961.

Here is the list: http://www.davidgleason.com/Archive Whites/Whites Vol 22 No 4 Fall 1945.pdf

There were less than 60 of them in 1945, many of which were experimental, like Major Armstrong's one at Alpine.
And all those station owners had to scrap the equipment when the band was moved. Stereo was the "bone". For the FCC to try to show the broadcasters how spending all that money was going to help them in the long run to improve their product to the citizen/consumer. Oh, yes, increase the revenue to the government treasury by selling the frequency use to the broadcaster.
Stereo on FM is a given, now.

Most listening is in mono because most radios are little mono radios in the kitchen and the bedroom.
Debatable. Alot of TV's in the house these days.
Probably so, the assumption is that if it is off, there is probably a repair being made and it will be back shortly.

Since most radios don't even have a stereo light, how would they know it is off? And on those little clock radios with speakers milimeters apart, nobody can tell the difference.
I don't think those people care at that point. Stereo listening is not paid attention to as closely as it once was, that is why TV has gone to multi-channel sound and nex-gen 3D. What's next for TV, 4D? The programming is what they are listening to on FM. If it has migrated to a listenable FM signal in their area, they are probably using it because the CFL's (or TV in the other room, etc.) are interfering with the reception on the AM simulcast.
The question would be: if stereo doesn't make a difference, why not just turn it off, save the equipment, and increase the preceived range and call it a day?

I like that link, David. Thank you for posting it.

Jeff in (sunny) Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
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