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to: Antenna-Carl any update on this?

"I'll be brief: but EDM has come up with a tx .......I have all the test data on the tx, and I hope to post it soon so you can see the difference.......I'm pretty impressed with the data on the new tx and that data promises the new tx will surpass the ability of the old EDM's and their sound quality (and the old EDM's have superior sound quality;..don't think anyone ever posted they didn't!)"

Can you post some data? I am very curious!
 
> "I'll be brief: but EDM has come up with a tx .......I have> all the test data on the tx, and I hope to post it soon so> you can see the difference.......I'm pretty impressed with> the data on the new tx and that data promises the new tx> will surpass the ability of the old EDM's and their sound> quality (and the old EDM's have superior sound> quality;..don't think anyone ever posted they didn't!)"> > Can you post some data? I am very curious!> Actually, I do have that information!...sorry but I kind of forgot to post it..........it would be easier for me to email it to you, so if you would, email me at [email protected], or [email protected] and I'll forward the information...............In brief, the new EDM-FM will tune power from 1mW to 100mW (which will make it attractive for nearly everyone), and I believe there is a deal whereby a customer will get a free upgrade to the next better transmitter for the lower price; best to check out the website for details on that.....This new tx is not yet ready to be sold; I've been asked to test it, and as it is not completely ready yet, I haven't gotten it yet........I really do like this transmitter (I believe Radiopilot has one too!).....it is smaller than a cigarette pack, it has PLL, it is totally easy to tune to your frequency, it does broadcast in stereo, but you can broadcast in mono if you wish, and there is really only one small dial inside to specifically tune the antenna....I use mine with the supplied wire antenna (which is about 5 foot long). I did some research and came up with a very small rubber-duckie antenna (which I don't like) which performs about as good but maybe worse than the simple wire antenna......I tested this under what could be considered about the worst conditions.....for instance, the wire antenna is taped (yep, duct taped) against my metal mobile home, yet I do get omni-directional signal!...it is a very strong signal, however I chose one of the few clear channels here...another drawback is I live in the mountains and while I am pretty high up, I am also surrounded by higher mountains, so this is kind of a valley of sorts....the top of the antenna wire is 8 feet off the ground; the rubber-duckie sits in a tree about 16 feet off the ground, but I didn't use coax: I used RCA wire!!.....like I said, the results using both antennas are pretty similar in range of signal.............I guess I didn't post much about this because there is a stigma on this board that anything more than 10mW is illegal; in fact what the measurement needs to be is broadcast contour........If you used the 10mW EDM and lived in an apartment complex, you would surely cover that whole apartment building....but if you are looking at a mountain, you probably wouldn't have much of a signal......There are incredibly stupid people (who read this board!) and place their station on the same frequency as the station down the road, and they wonder why they get a letter or phone call from the Federal Candy Company.......but I digress.....I don't like to state names of transmitters I've tested and disliked, but I don't mind talking about those that I did like, and I do like the EDM for those reasons above........hope this helps!!...Carl.<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>
 
> Actually, I do have that information!...sorry but
> > I kind of forgot to post it..........it would be easier
> for
> > me to email it to you, so if you would, email me at
> > [email protected], or [email protected] and I'll forward
> the
> > information...............
>
> I will email you
>
Done. Check your aol email
 
> > Actually, I do have that information!...sorry but> > > I kind of forgot to post it..........it would be easier> > for> > > me to email it to you, so if you would, email me at> > > [email protected], or [email protected] and I'll forward> > > the> > > information...............> > > > I will email you> > > Done. Check your aol email> use the webtv email addresses I gave you, not the aol<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>
 
Adjustable power...withdrawn

Hi all,

I had posted a question here but decided to withdraw it.
Sorry to waste space.

Neil<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by radio8z on 12/23/05 10:18 AM.</FONT></P>
 
> I guess I didn't post much about this because there
> is a stigma on this board that anything more than
> 10mW is illegal;
__________

And IF strictly observing Part 15 FM rules is desired, 10 mW is still way too much power unless the antenna radiates almost none of it. So is 1 mW. So is 0.1 mW.

Part 15 FM transmit antennas are very efficient, pushing 100% as compared to maybe 1% for Part 15 AM antennas. And they need no "ground" to do so.

It takes only ~11 nanowatts (11/100,000ths of 1 mW) to produce the legal maximum Part 15 FM field of 250 µV/m at a distance of 3 meters, when radiated from a 1/2-wave dipole.
//
 
> > > I guess I didn't post much about this because there
> > > is a stigma on this board that anything more than
> > > 10mW is illegal;
> > __________
> >
> > And IF strictly observing Part 15 FM rules is desired, 10
> mW
> > is still way too much power unless the antenna radiates
> > almost none of it. So is 1 mW. So is 0.1 mW.
> >
> > Part 15 FM transmit antennas are very efficient, pushing
> > 100% as compared to maybe 1% for Part 15 AM antennas. And
>
> > they need no "ground" to do so.
> >
> > It takes only ~11 nanowatts (11/100,000ths of 1 mW) to
> > produce the legal maximum Part 15 FM field of 250 µV/m at
> a
> > distance of 3 meters, when radiated from a 1/2-wave
> dipole.
> > //
> >
In theory yes. I wonder why the FM stations within 40-60
miles from me needs a few thousand watts and arrays of high
gain antenna's to operate? Even the Clear Channel station
serving my own town with borders not more than 10miles in diameter is listed to operating 1500 watts. Why do they need this if the can make it on 0.1watt with their antenna's on the hilltop? Makes you wonder.
 
Re: Adjustable power...withdrawn

> Hi all,
>
> I had posted a question here but decided to withdraw it.
> Sorry to waste space.
>
> Neil
>
Neil

You had a very valid question and I am sure myself and others would like to know the answers to that.
 
> > I guess I didn't post much about this because there
> > is a stigma on this board that anything more than
> > 10mW is illegal;
> __________
>
> And IF strictly observing Part 15 FM rules is desired, 10 mW
> is still way too much power unless the antenna radiates
> almost none of it. So is 1 mW. So is 0.1 mW.
>
> Part 15 FM transmit antennas are very efficient, pushing
> 100% as compared to maybe 1% for Part 15 AM antennas. And
> they need no "ground" to do so.
>
> It takes only ~11 nanowatts (11/100,000ths of 1 mW) to
> produce the legal maximum Part 15 FM field of 250 µV/m at a
> distance of 3 meters, when radiated from a 1/2-wave dipole.
> //
>

'Debbie Downer" strikes again....

We all are aware of the issue of how much power it supposedly takes to power the FM transmitter, can we put this issue to rest already?

I sure you are aware most of the people on this board are adults and as such know the consequences of our own actions and will deal with the consequences when and if they come. I believe we don't need the constant hassle from anyone here or any other board as to our legal viewpoints.

Please have the discretion and dignity to let others do as they will and offer constructive help and not constant reminders of wrong doing!

Just my rant and general feeling, as I'm sure others feel similarly.

Radiopilot
 
> I wonder why the FM stations within 40-60
> miles from me needs a few thousand watts and arrays of high
> gain antenna's to operate? Even the Clear Channel station
> serving my own town with borders not more than 10miles in
> diameter is listed to operating 1500 watts. Why do they need
> this if the can make it on 0.1watt with their antenna's on
> the hilltop? Makes you wonder.
______________

FM broadcast stations are licensed both for effective radiated power and height of their antenna center above average terrain, to produce a minimum (not a maximum) signal strength over a wide area, based on their class of license.

The minimum field strength that a licensed FM broadcast station can have within the boundaries of its whole city of license is 3.16 mV/m. This is 12,640X greater than the maximum legal Part 15 field is, only 3 meters from its antenna.

Part 15 stations are in a totally different category, and can't really be compared to broadcast operations.

//
 
> We all are aware of the issue of how much power it
> supposedly takes to power the FM transmitter, ...

If "all" are well aware of how much power it takes for legal operation of Part 15 FM systems, then there wouldn't be anyone to quote here saying that using up to 10 mW was not a "stigma" -- which was the prompt for my comment.

I agree that people can/will/should do as they wish about this, but don't you think they should know what the limits really define? Then they can decide if, and by how much they want to stay within them, or exceed them.

//
 
Re: Adjustable power...withdrawn

> Hi all,> > I had posted a question here but decided to withdraw it.> Sorry to waste space.> > Neil> I agree; frankly anymore I frighten myself by answering questions on this board anymore; that was the purpose of this board, but if every discussion is going to be policed.................email me and I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. The tx isn't on the market yet; it isn't quite done, but it will have everything everyone loves about the originals, and a lot more flexibility, better signal to noise, and a good price too.<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>
 
Whats the point of Part 15?

> Part 15 stations are in a totally different category, and
> can't really be compared to broadcast operations.

What is the reason that Part 15 exists? Could it be that all electrical and electronic devices emit some level of RF radiation? Is it possible that Part 15 is not really intended to allow people to intentionally broadcast to their neighborhood?

Part 15 is intended to let people use devices that may intentionally or unintentionally emit RF. An intentional might be a cordless phone or a toy car remote. Part 15 puts varying restrictions on the different radio frequency bands in order to let people use these devices without them all interfering with each other.

If we look at the back of our TVs, Radios, Computers, Microwave ovens, and many other devices, we see an FCC certification on them.

Technology has improved, and so has the ability to limit the amount of RF these devices emit. Recent abuses of the rules have caused the FCC to revisit such areas as the FM broadcast band and further limit the restrictions. Remember when the limit on FM was 100 mW, now it is that very constrictive field strength at a mere 3 meters. Why?

Well for one thing, there are a lot of devices out there that operate on FM radio frequencies. (Remember Mr. Microphone? Siriusly though, I digress) Sattelite radios and iPods have those little FM transmitter devices that let you listen on any radio. With new FM tuners being more and more sensitive, now you have signals that are going places. Its fun to drive along the Long Island Expressway with the car radio tuned to 87.9 and 87.7 to hear other peoples Sirius and XM stations, or to hear what they got on their iPods.

HOLD ON A MINUTE! 87.7! 87.9! Thats the TV BAND! Absolutely. According to the FCC operating a device on these frequencies, even at less than Part 15 power or strength is prohibited. It is the TV band. So how come these companies can get away with it?

MY friends just got Sirius. Seriously, just last week. They can have their Sirius receiver in their bedroom on the second floor and with the FM transmitter set to 87.7 hear it on any radio in the house, including in the basement. It comes in beautifully in their car which was in the garage, as well my car which was parked two houses down on the street. Well, OK there is no Channel 6 in New York, so whats the big deal? Well, there is a Channel 6 in New York City, an LPTV. (an entirely different rant) I live a good 20-30 miles further from this LPTV than they do. I get the audio from LPTV 6 on my radios at home. When I am at my friends house which is closer to this LPTV, their Sirius Transmitter was crystal clear.

I was riding along Ocean Parkway this summer listening to the XM Modern Rock Channel of someone who was a good 500 or so feet behind me. Gee, that far exceeds the 200' rule of thumb. So not only are these little devices a bit too strong, some of them use unauthorized frequencies. MY question is this... Who is accountable for these unauthorized broadcasts? Is it the sellers and makers of the products? Is it the consumers who don't know any better? Or is is a shared responsibility? How does it affect legitimate part 15 broadcasters?

Well at least the last question I can answer to some degree. It already has affected us. The FCC stiffened the FM rules. Now all we have is AM. Lets hope that AM don't get abused as badly as the FM has, what with Talking Houses and Billboards and such, It may only be a matter of time till the big license holders complain about the "Microcasters" on AM too.

So is playing your mp3 player through one of these 10mW transmitters going to get you in trouble? I siriusly doubt it unless you are stupid and intentionally trying to mess with people. Does that make it legal? Absolutely not? But does it seem right? That you must decide for on your own. I know I have made my decision.
 
Re: EDM data compare

> > Hi all,> > I had posted a question here but decided to
> withdraw it.> Sorry to waste space.> > Neil> I agree;
> frankly anymore I frighten myself by answering questions on
> this board anymore; that was the purpose of this board, but
> if every discussion is going to be
> policed.................email me and I'll answer your
> questions to the best of my ability. The tx isn't on the
> market yet; it isn't quite done, but it will have
> everything everyone loves about the originals, and a lot
> more flexibility, better signal to noise, and a good price
> too.
>

Here is a quick comparison I made on the main differences old and new:

----------------current------------------------------new
display*******LED*********************2 x 16 line LCD
power*******10/100mW****************1-100mW adjustable
audio********15k filter/limiter******15k fil/lim + fil/subcarrier/pilot
SNR*********60-65dB*****************80dB or better
dist %THD*****0.2%********************0.04% or better
spurious*****<-50dBc*****************<-70dBc
harmonics****<-55dBc*******************<-65dBc
residual FM****<25Hz*******************<5 Hz(1Hz typical)
stereo sep*****40dB*******************>48dB
new price, under $200 shipped

this is prelim data based on lab tests
 
Re: Adjustable power...withdrawn Reason

> Hi all,
>
> I had posted a question here but decided to withdraw it.
> Sorry to waste space.
>
> Neil
>
Thanks Carl and Radiooke for your interest. My question related to setting the power for legal operation, but I realized that this has been discussed so many times here that I was not adding anything useful.

Neil
 
Russty's post recommended reading

Hi all,

I found Russty's post to be interesting and informative.

I wonder if the encroachment into the TV band is done with the attitude that there will be so many out there, the FCC will have to drop the restriction. Those who were around in the early '70s will recall the CB experience. Licenses and assigned call signs were required until there were so many unlicensed users the FCC dropped the license requirement. Those who used CB for business communications had to leave the band due to the chaos. Widespread violation of FCC rules by CB operators using illegal power spilled over to affect the rules for the Amateur Radio 10 meter band. The sale of external amplifiers capable of 10 M operation was banned, leaving the amateur community holding the bag for illegal CB operators. We are now seeing the legal reaction to abuses of the rules regarding the broadcast bands e.g. the Florida situation with the presumed effect on part 15 operators.

Historically, Part 15 was written to protect communication services from unintentional radiation incidental to the operation of radio receivers and other electronic devices such as medical diathermy equipment and induction heaters.

The intentional radiators are included to allow for remote control, alarms, cordless phones, etc. which operate outside of the broadcast bands. The rule allowing personal use of the AM broadcast band was created, I believe, to permit low cost phonographs which would use the existing home radio receivers for amplification and a speaker. Carrier current AM was allowed for coverage of college campuses.

I do not believe it was ever intended to allow neighborhood broadcasting, but because of better electronics and clever antenna design this is possible on AM. If I am right about the original intent, then if problems develop with the operation of part 15 intentional radiators, it is likely the rules will change in a restrictive manner.

Intentional out of band and high power FM transmitting could trigger a complete prohibition of broadcast band intentional radiators. Or if, for example, the AM 100 mW/3 meter antenna rule was replaced with a field strength requirement similar to that for FM, then part15 AM will be dead.

Just some things to consider.

Neil
 
Re: to both of you 100mw was never allowed on FM :)

Just to satisfy my curiosity i have asked the FCC, older Broadcast professionals, and researched on the internet. I can't find or aquire any info where FM was allowed 100mw of power it has always been feild strength @ 3m. Now at one time there were campus rules for FM like we have on AM, FM was 250uV/m @3m from campus boundary, but in 1989 when they changed the rules to allow am to broadcast from a central point on campus they droped the FM. So recap. We have always had AM Carier Current, FM leaky Cable, FM intentional 250uV/m @3m, and AM 100mw in 3m antenna. Before 1989 we had FM rules for campus using a central intentional radiator. now after 89 it's been moved from FM to AM. We have not gained anything we have not lost anything. Part 15 rules since their inception has seen very little change on the broadcast bands. all of the changes have really been to allow WiFi, and 900mhz/2.4GHz/5.8GHz phones and other license free wireless devices. part 15 rules have actually loosened over the years. if they had not you wouldn't have that nice license free microwave STL to run multiple part 15 sites.<P ID="signature">______________
Oldies 1610 AM Stereo

"Proud User of Chris Cuff's Alfredo Lite 100mw"

http://www.part15.us
Largest Part 15 Website in the World</P>
 
Re: to both of you 100mw was never allowed on FM...My comments

> Just to satisfy my curiosity i have asked the FCC, older
> Broadcast professionals, and researched on the internet. I
> can't find or aquire any info where FM was allowed 100mw of
> power it has always been feild strength @ 3m. Now at one
> time there were campus rules for FM like we have on AM, FM
> was 250uV/m @3m from campus boundary, but in 1989 when they
> changed the rules to allow am to broadcast from a central
> point on campus they droped the FM. So recap. We have always
> had AM Carier Current, FM leaky Cable, FM intentional
> 250uV/m @3m, and AM 100mw in 3m antenna. Before 1989 we had
> FM rules for campus using a central intentional radiator.
> now after 89 it's been moved from FM to AM. We have not
> gained anything we have not lost anything. Part 15 rules
> since their inception has seen very little change on the
> broadcast bands. all of the changes have really been to
> allow WiFi, and 900mhz/2.4GHz/5.8GHz phones and other
> license free wireless devices. part 15 rules have actually
> loosened over the years. if they had not you wouldn't have
> that nice license free microwave STL to run multiple part 15
> sites.
>
Hi,

Thanks for your post. Your accounting is what I understand to be correct.

Just for the record you wrote "I can't find or aquire any info where FM was allowed 100mw of power it has always been feild strength @ 3m.". I agree and I did not say it was ever based on power.

I also did a search on "FCC Part15 history" and found a site that stated that the original part15 rules for AM BCB were written in 1938 to allow for in home phono oscillators. I didn't save the link but it was from a company which manufactures carrier current equipment and unfortunately they did not reference their source. All I can say is that it agrees with my understanding of the original intent.

Neil
 
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