• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Today's 60s/70s Oldies Format - Question

I've been curious about something. I suppose I could research this myself by looking at numbers of markets across the country that offer today's version of oldies.

Are heritage stations that have evolved their playlists more successful than stations that have flipped from something else over the last year or so to oldies? I would think stations that have grown a loyal audience and have a track record are making the transition easier. Great examples of course is WCBS-FM in New York but equally I'm very impressed with what WMXJ is doing in South Florida. I actually like the idea that, although on a limited basis, that they still play a tune prior to 1964.

Anyway, I am becomming more and more impressed with how the format has changed to help it survive. Would be interested to hear views on this and in particular to learn of newcomers to the format who are doing well and why they are. Thanks.
 
Heritage Stations have an edge with history and branding. But it's ALWAYS content. Two stations battleing it out in the same nostalgia and comfort food music will only have one winner. Say both stations have the identical palylist. It will always be the station with the better music rotation, presentation, contests, talent, local news, community involvement. Same sandwich meat, but better bread and pickles. Heritage or not, better content wins listeners and financially.
 
amfmsw said:
Heritage Stations have an edge with history and branding. But it's ALWAYS content.

Something which a lot of owners, and programmers have not grasped in the effort to maximize profits. I'm all for making a buck, but if this was the restaurant business they would be serving day old chicken at room temperature.

I'm amazed at how many 45+ listeners are fleeing radio for other media, and like I pointed out before, a lot of the young kids are not choosing radio. It all comes down to content ... giving the PUBLIC what they are looking for.
 
FredRichards said:
amfmsw said:
Heritage Stations have an edge with history and branding. But it's ALWAYS content.

Something which a lot of owners, and programmers have not grasped in the effort to maximize profits. I'm all for making a buck, but if this was the restaurant business they would be serving day old chicken at room temperature.

I'm amazed at how many 45+ listeners are fleeing radio for other media, and like I pointed out before, a lot of the young kids are not choosing radio. It all comes down to content ... giving the PUBLIC what they are looking for.

Listenership in 45-54 is actually up a bit and consistent with historical levels. 55+ has declined, and it is simple to understasnd why... there is very little, if any, revenue from advertisers looking for 55+ because nearly no advertiser wants that age group. So, radio does not make any effort to please 55+, as there is no benefit in doing so.
 
I'm sure you're taking the numbers from Arbitron, and probably the overall national numbers. But golly, Dave, I'm having a hard time finding people that listen to radio the way they did ten years ago.

Of the adults that I work with, hardly any of them listen to radio. One that does listens to redio also works for a cluster. The majority of adults have seemed to have switched to XM or in dash CD players. The youth that I work with don't listen to radio at all. Their preference is iPods and online music web sites. It worries me, as I see an erosion of the listener base affecting a lot of business as well as safety and security.

The two questions yet to be answered are; why is it occurring, and what needs to be done to turn the trend around?

I'm sure the numbers in bigger towns are better, but I bet if we looked at the trends from a decade ago to now, and compare it to today, there would be some interesting trends to consider. But when I see families that HAD listened to radio faithfully now not listening to radio at all, (or just for the few minutes in the morning), it makes me wonder what we need to do to return the faithful to the fold.
 
FredRichards said:
I'm sure you're taking the numbers from Arbitron, and probably the overall national numbers. But golly, Dave, I'm having a hard time finding people that listen to radio the way they did ten years ago.

Of the adults that I work with, hardly any of them listen to radio. One that does listens to redio also works for a cluster. The majority of adults have seemed to have switched to XM or in dash CD players. The youth that I work with don't listen to radio at all. Their preference is iPods and online music web sites. It worries me, as I see an erosion of the listener base affecting a lot of business as well as safety and security.

The two questions yet to be answered are; why is it occurring, and what needs to be done to turn the trend around?

How many people do ANYTHING the way they did 10 years ago? Times change. Newspaper readership is plummeting...are newspapers any "worse" today than they were 10-15 years ago? Go to the library sometime and look at your local paper circa 1955. Screaming 72 pt. headlines, lots of yellow journalism, but a whole lot less news than today. Or the auto industry...GM may still be #1, but no one will ever enjoy the 60+% market share they had in the 60s.

XM (and Sirius) are a minimal factor at best...what do they have, a 1% market share (combined) at best?

New technology is probably the biggest factor here. 30 years ago I had a cassette player in my car, probably divided listening 50/50 between tape & radio. Putting together "mix" tapes was kind of a PITA...I'll bet only the real geeks even bothered. Today, you almost can't buy a PC without a CD-R drive in it, any moron can rip a custom CD or download songs into an mp3 player, and it takes very little time unlike a cassette that had to be recorded in real time. Easier than ever to make a custom mix=no brainer. 10 years ago only the computer geeks had CD-R drives, mp3 players hadn't been invented yet & webcasting was all but unknown.

I wonder what the scene would have been like in 1975 had all of today's technology existed then. My guess is that radio would have been behind the 8-ball then as well. It's easy to be #1 when there's no real competition. The pie hasn't gotten any larger, it's just being sliced more ways today.
 
Oldies programmers could probably get their heads out of the sand about satellite radio and take note of what this media is doing.
Adults are flocking to XM and Sirius for what they're not getting on commercial radio. Two of the most popular channels on XM are the 60's and 70's channels. The reason, in my opinion, is that they're willing to do what terrestrial radio programmers aren't willing to do - offer bigger playlists with more variety, combined with personality. I don't listen to strictly on-line stations, but I imagine the same thing is happening there. Today's radio is slowly losing the people who grew up with this media. And because of music downloading, internet radio and satellite radio, they don't have a chance with the next generation. In the 50's, television was supposed to be the death of radio. It didn't happen. Radio became format-driven and not only survived, but thrived. The obituary for radio was written again when 8-tracks, cassettes and CD's came into play, especially in cars. Once again radio survived and thrived. But never in its history has radio had the competition from new technology like it has in today's marketplace. Unless the industry wakes up and makes some major changes, the time for that radio obituary may be just around the corner.
 
Sirius & XM combined have over 16 million subscribers , and with 2.5 listeners per subscription that comes to 40 million listeners- far more than the 1% claimed previously above. The people that keep panning sat radio as meaningless usually are with terrestrial radio (employed) and cannot see the forest for the trees. The single biggest reason reason people have gone over to Sirius and XM is dissatisfaction with free radio. Anyone who claims 40 million listeners is nothing is being naive, it would be like getting rid of New York City, LA and Chicago combined markets in one swoop. Time to get your head out of the sand. Six years ago when sat radio started they said it would flop, it hasnt, it still is growing- and the satisfaction rate with it , is far higher than terrestrial radio can claim.
 
From my post on "why oldies is dying" etc


The older you get, the more important the memories are. You can not commit radio genocide to entire groups of people - especially, the largest number of retiring segment in the history.

We all grew up with the "elevator" or nursing home stations for the generations of our time that were expiring and radio seemed to know how to present it and sell it to make money.

THIS is the problem. Lots of people who run radio and own radio fashion themselves experts. While far from progressive, they can't seem to stand the thought of marketing a product under their corporate banner that they consider to be "outdated".

They become inept at selling it because they don't have the creative bones to recreate it, repackage it and make it vital.

The XM 60s channel that Cleveland Wheeler developed seemed to have no problem gaining a most favored status when arbitron rated it TOP TEN from within. IT also wasn't lacking in response from listeners - an enthusiasm most OLDIES radio and CLASSIC HITS can't seem to muster.

The argument about sat radio losing billions doesn't hold. The fact that someone created something that redefined the format in a most effective and innovative way, proves it can be done on any medium - yet, there this example of inspiration sits - exclusive to satellite radio.
There is why you pay 12.95 my friends.

When the powers over processes are challenged, they either steal something that works from somewhere else (Jack), bastardize it, change frequencies or give it a new name and slap something else in the box out to see if will stick. But anything beyond a cheeky music mix and a bunch of unproduced attitude liners with no live jocks and you won't find terrestrial radio genius bubbling from the wellspring.

There is definitely a market for the best music ever played and the original CBS (before they threw the towel in and went Jack) excuse that this audience didn't possess any appreciable spendable income and are not mainstream consumers, is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Problematically, is that all the young salespeople have no understanding of how much more impactive radio was before they were born so they can't identify with the passion for the music and the feeling about radio of yesterday that the core audience has. Most of them do not know the music unless they are discovers.

But there is no point in telling corporations anything these days. This is a do-what-we-say
and appreciate that you even have a job environment and it has little to do with innovation or new ideas. It only has to do with, "did we meet budgets for the year - then let's start
tossing out bodies."

Take Wheeler and his full spectrum reflection of the 60s, not one part of the pop culture was left out..nor was the war, or the contract to what Britain was playing when the invasion was happening here, the pirates, the soul, advent of American rock bands, bubblegum, surf, novelty songs, movie themes, protest and folk, and countless artists specials and history of the music, along with constant chronology and events references. What corporately owned FM has ever presented anything remotely close to touch the soul of listeners?

The biz mires themselves in formulas and statistics so that nothing else is more real to radio than a 12 person focus group thrown slanted questions so they can justify what they WANT to do in the first place .....same moronic method with auditorium and call out music testing.

I love when these geeks start talking about the CLASSIC HITS that tested. Hey, if it sold a million or more and was a TOP TEN song, you be assure that it has a place in the format and NEEDS to be played. But we all know this isn't the case.

It doesn't take a statistician or a "scientist" to air great radio...it takes a RADIO person with street smarts and a finger on the pulse of people.

Radio has also discarded emotion and the very compelling roll it places in anything nostalgic.
 
Good post, radioatlantis. I'll add to this that the audience is much smarter, and thus you can't have the "kid jocks" spewing inaccuracies on the air. Older listener's know better.

That said, the format has to be polished and professional else they will drop you fast.
 
AZJoe said:
Sirius & XM combined have over 16 million subscribers , and with 2.5 listeners per subscription that comes to 40 million listeners- far more than the 1% claimed previously above. The people that keep panning sat radio as meaningless usually are with terrestrial radio (employed) and cannot see the forest for the trees. The single biggest reason reason people have gone over to Sirius and XM is dissatisfaction with free radio. Anyone who claims 40 million listeners is nothing is being naive, it would be like getting rid of New York City, LA and Chicago combined markets in one swoop. Time to get your head out of the sand. Six years ago when sat radio started they said it would flop, it hasnt, it still is growing- and the satisfaction rate with it , is far higher than terrestrial radio can claim.

The satellite radio ratings do not show 2.5 listeners per radio, as satellite is mostlin in-car and most people drive alone most of the time. Further, in car is less htan a third of total radio usage, so the 14 million represent the 2hours tuned" of 5 million persons, and represent only around 2 shares of total total radio listening.... after nearly 7 years on the air.

As mentioned elsewhere, the he 60 channel gets an average listenership of under 15 thousand persons, and in 25-54, it is around 3 thousand. The individual channels, ex cept for Stern, have fewer listeners than a second tier station in a medium market.

The biggest reason people have gone to satellite is the fact that they got a year of service free with a new car. Most of these churn after the first year, when confronted with a bill for $150 for the next year. That is why the ocmpanies are losing so much money.
 
radioatlantis said:
The older you get, the more important the memories are. You can not commit radio genocide to entire groups of people - especially, the largest number of retiring segment in the history.

You forget that radio must please two constituencies at once, the listener and the advertiser. There is no adbertiser interest in the 55+ group, because that group does not provide an adequate return on investment when advertised to on the radio.

We all grew up with the "elevator" or nursing home stations for the generations of our time that were expiring and radio seemed to know how to present it and sell it to make money.

Two things have happened... first, marketing has become more sophisticated, and, second, society has become more fragmented. Advertisers no longer shoot with a shotgun but with a rifle. Targeting is accentuated right down to the design of products today, as the field is too competitive in any area for "mass appeal" products.

By the way, as a former syndicator of beautiful music, I have to say that the format had a huge under-55 component at one time, and it was only when this group disappeared that the format started dying. Remember, in the 60's we had groups like the Hollyridge Strings playing the Beatles songbook, the Four Seasons songbook, etc, and every pop hit was covered instrumentally

THIS is the problem. Lots of people who run radio and own radio fashion themselves experts. While far from progressive, they can't seem to stand the thought of marketing a product under their corporate banner that they consider to be "outdated".

Nobody cares about perception, or no company would have hip hop stations. The fact is that formats are considered for salability, not for perceptipn. 55 and over formats are not profitable because in markets where agency business is essential to get, we find that no agency account has asked for 55+ with rare, rare exception.

They become inept at selling it because they don't have the creative bones to recreate it, repackage it and make it vital.

You can not sell with a team of sales stars something an agency has been ordered by the client not to buy. For the agency, that is the equivalent of defying the boss, and is the stuff account cancellations are made of.

The XM 60s channel that Cleveland Wheeler developed seemed to have no problem gaining a most favored status when arbitron rated it TOP TEN from within. IT also wasn't lacking in response from listeners - an enthusiasm most OLDIES radio and CLASSIC HITS can't seem to muster.

I already gave you the figures.. the average listenership is equivalent to that of a good station in Traverse City, Mi. And in 25-54, it is the equivalent of the capacity of the Radio City Muisic Hall for one performance. Hardly impressive.

When the powers over processes are challenged, they either steal something that works from somewhere else (Jack), bastardize it, change frequencies or give it a new name and slap something else in the box out to see if will stick. But anything beyond a cheeky music mix and a bunch of unproduced attitude liners with no live jocks and you won't find terrestrial radio genius bubbling from the wellspring.

The difference is that Jack (which is not stolen, but licensed from its Canadian creators) is successful when well done. In LA, where attention is given to doing new liners daily, and the station is "live" at all times with talented producers in the studio to capture and edit listener calls (the replacement for the jocks the Jack listener hates do much) the station is a top 5 biller and the #1 25-54 non-ethnic station in the market.

Radio has always been more prone to metamorphosis than radical change, as tastes moderate or mutate as opposed to changing over night. Radical change is dangerous, and often accompanied by long periods of zero billing. My first station, launched before I knew better, was one of radical change... no similar format on a whole continent, and no point of reference for advertisers to cling to... so it billed nothing for the first 7 months and I almost lost it.

There is definitely a market for the best music ever played and the original CBS (before they threw the towel in and went Jack) excuse that this audience didn't possess any appreciable spendable income and are not mainstream consumers, is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

The argument is much simpler: agencies have been told by their clients to buy demos that the products and services were researched against and developed for, and not to buy 55+ as it produces no return on investment. Agencies generally follow client dictates 100%, and refuse to listen to propositions that would lose them the account. Duh.

Problematically, is that all the young salespeople have no understanding of how much more impactive radio was before they were born so they can't identify with the passion for the music and the feeling about radio of yesterday that the core audience has. Most of them do not know the music unless they are discovers.

That's just crap. You can not sell to an agency what the agency has been told not to buy. The demos of each campaign are set at the highest client level, based on the client marketing department determinations, and will not be changed by sellers pitching the media buyers who have no ability to change a buy spec.


The biz mires themselves in formulas and statistics so that nothing else is more real to radio than a 12 person focus group thrown slanted questions so they can justify what they WANT to do in the first place .....same moronic method with auditorium and call out music testing.

Your ignorance of radio research is astounding. Methods that have proven over and over to create winning stations with large audiences are summarily eecuted in your mind.

Single anecdote. I had a researched classic rock station in a market of 17 million. We had #1 and a 20 share, playing a researched 450 song playlist. A competitor came on, with no research, with 1800 songs or more and promoted variety. 9 moths later, after never getting more than a 1.8, they changed format. Listeners perceived my station had better variety... because we played hits, and the other station played 70% stiffs. So much for research.

I love when these geeks start talking about the CLASSIC HITS that tested. Hey, if it sold a million or more and was a TOP TEN song, you be assure that it has a place in the format and NEEDS to be played. But we all know this isn't the case.

75% or more of the top 10 songs do not research today via the question of how much a person wants to hear the song today, on the radio. Most songs are passé, and not usable as they are played out, burnt out or embarassing. This single statement shows you have no knowledge of what the listener wants to hear. None whatsoever.
 
yep, this is the same David Eduardo that said that no way would CBS-Fm ever switch back, yeah true when they came back it wasn't to oldies but classic hits, but when they did the format flip it was an instant success. Ok, so it's classic hits, but there's more 60's stuff on there than anywhere else. They also brought back Don K. Reed for a specialty show. Aforementioned Mr Eduardo and a few others on this board consumed a few plates full of crow after the flip. 1st book after the flip attested to the success of the flip back. some of The points made by Mr. Eduardo are valid, but fact is- 55+ listeners still like this music, and talk that says other wise is- and I quote the Great one- "just crap"....

Go ahead- make my day.... :)

warm590 ;D
 
warm590 said:
yep, this is the same David Eduardo that said that no way would CBS-Fm ever switch back,

I said they would not come back as oldies. As all know, they were trying to transition and many have pointed out that prior to the switch to Jack, the sound was increasingly 70's.

So, the station did not come back as the "old" CBS FM but as a new, classic hits format. If you do an era analysis in MedaBase, ylou find significantly higer percentages of 70's and even 80's than in the last year as an oldies station.

yeah true when they came back it wasn't to oldies but classic hits, but when they did the format flip it was an instant success.

But it was not hugely better than Jakc; the advantages were more likely in perception and image. The October Arbitron extrap for WCBS-FM in 25 54 was the same as the March actual for CBS FM, so the sales demos are, on average, a little better but the salability from image issues in the NY shops is probably much better.

Ok, so it's classic hits, but there's more 60's stuff on there than anywhere else.

Yet it is almost entirely post-64, and a lower percentage as time goes by. The station is a pure 70's core, with overlap to each side.

They also brought back Don K. Reed for a specialty show. Aforementioned Mr Eduardo and a few others on this board consumed a few plates full of crow after the flip.

Why? All along I compared the old CBS to WOGL, which is a classic hits station... one works today, and the other does not. Suffice it to say that Classic Hits is the Mediabase and Arbitron format descriptor now, not oldies. It's a different format. Just as Hot AC and CHR have overlap, or AC and Hot AC have overlap, or CHR and Urban or CHR and Churban have overlap, there is no finite border between an oldies and a classic hits station... there is overlap. The determination is based on total songs by era, and CBS is not oldies by that criterion.

1st book after the flip attested to the success of the flip back. some of The points made by Mr. Eduardo are valid, but fact is- 55+ listeners still like this music, and talk that says other wise is- and I quote the Great one- "just crap"....

The whole issue is NOT appealing to 55+, which in NY is pretty much unsalable as this is an agency driven market. The reason for Jack, and the reason for classic hits is the same... get more 25-54 and shed the 55+ image which was costing them lots of revenue. Remember, the change to Jack was motivated by severely declining revenues. In the 7 years prior to Jack, CBS FM was off in revenue around 20% while the market was up around 12%.

In 25-54, Jack was top 10, and CBS FM is only a notch ahead of where Jack was living. Improvement? Yes. But it's a different format that the oldies format, and you can't change that.
 
It occurred to me that this entire discussion of stations won't let us have our oldies versus advertisers won't buy 55+ reminds me of the abortion issue: To either side, the alternative seems opposite but really isn't. Pro choice advocates think the other side is anti-choice whereas pro-life people feel that their opponents are in favor of killing babies! In both scenarios, if it were a black or white situation, people might see the other side.
 
amfmsw said:
EVERYONE has see my exchanges with Dave Eduardo, as we seem to disagree on just about everything. BUT... with that said, DE is on the money with his comments in reply #10 above. Satellite listening is insignificant. His numbers are correct.

Amen.

Satellite Radio is to Broadcast Radio as Cable Television is to Broadcast TV.

I don't see ABC, CBS, NBC & FOX running too scared over the Cable TV Networks. And how long has Cable TV been around? What does the top rate Cable TV show get ... like a .7 share?
 
The point that David is right on (and he and I do disagree sometimes on some issues), is the "viability" of the former oldies format.

You can rant and rave all you want...I agree there's more boomers...I agree there's a lot of spending power there...I'll even agree I think a lot of advertisers miss the boat.

But facts are facts. The ad community buys other media to reach 55 plus. Radio has to sell what the advertisers want to buy. You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

And while I occasionally hear an older couple in their 60's talking about how great their satellite radio is, the aggregate numbers do not suggest in any way, mean, shape or form that the oldies channels are attracting listeners that would take away from radio's revenue base.

Stop blaming radio for what is, essentially an advertiser problem.
 
Jason Roberts said:
And while I occasionally hear an older couple in their 60's talking about how great their satellite radio is, the aggregate numbers do not suggest in any way, mean, shape or form that the oldies channels are attracting listeners that would take away from radio's revenue base.

For every person in their 60s that has a satellite radio there are probably several people under 55 that are exposed to that radio. After one experiences satellite's music channels, it's pretty tough for listeners of any age to go back to commercial radio. Seems to me THAT'S what radio should worry about.............finding a way to service those 60-year olds so as to keep satellite away from the ears of the younger demo.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The biggest reason people have gone to satellite is the fact that they got a year of service free with a new car. Most of these churn after the first year, when confronted with a bill for $150 for the next year. That is why the ocmpanies are losing so much money.

I hope that you're not suggesting that these people don't keep satellite because they can't afford it. That would mean that commercial radio's audience is made up of listeners who can't afford satellite. And if I were an advertiser, I'd be concerned about that. I'd be thinking "if commercial radio listeners can't afford satellite radio, then maybe they can't afford MY product".
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom