Too many pirate stations

[TheBigA]

And again, how do you know that additional broadcasters won't use their license responsibly?

You're confusing parts of this thread. The first part, of which this comment was attached, has to do with pirates, not legal broadcasters. You've inserted the concept of making pirates legal. But my comment was still addressed to the concept of pirates, who are not licensed, and not responsible.

You're stating opinion as fact. The reality is that there's plenty of legitimate groups that would love to have an opportunity to gain a broadcast license, but have no real way of doing so right now.

No, because the government has clearly decided to place a limit on the number of licenses. That is not opinion, but fact. There is no question that lots of people would love licenses. I would love lots of things including a vacation home in Key West. But that doesn't mean I'm going to get one.

As for Europe, that's irrelevant. They have free healthcare too, and we don't. The government here can't boost staffing levels for the same reason they can't provide free healthcare: No money. And application fees don't amount to much money.

 

[neo11]

And again, how do you know that additional broadcasters won't use their license responsibly?

You're confusing parts of this thread. The first part, of which this comment was attached, has to do with pirates, not legal broadcasters. You've inserted the concept of making pirates legal. But my comment was still addressed to the concept of pirates, who are not licensed, and not responsible.

It's pretty clear you are confused and not I. I never said to make the pirates legal. My suggestion was to allow more broadcasters to obtain a license to broadcast. Nothing foreign about that idea...it's behind the push to relax the LPFM rules from the ridiculous third-adjacent protection that exists currently, for instance. As for who applies, nobody can control that, but certainly there's no reason why the operators of a pirate station couldn't get their act together and apply for a real license. Kiss 100 in London began its life as one of the many London pirates, and that's just one example.

You're stating opinion as fact. The reality is that there's plenty of legitimate groups that would love to have an opportunity to gain a broadcast license, but have no real way of doing so right now.

No, because the government has clearly decided to place a limit on the number of licenses. That is not opinion, but fact. There is no question that lots of people would love licenses. I would love lots of things including a vacation home in Key West. But that doesn't mean I'm going to get one.

As for Europe, that's irrelevant. They have free healthcare too, and we don't. The government here can't boost staffing levels for the same reason they can't provide free healthcare: No money. And application fees don't amount to much money.
[/quote]

Apples and oranges once again. The only reason one can't get a license right now is because one can't apply. No one is saying to throw law out the window, but to change regulations to allow new broadcasters onto the airwaves legally. As for money, it's more than just application fees, and you know it, just as you surely know that the FCC could use a boost in its staffing levels regardless of any new stations that go on the air. And even with today's rules, the amount of radio stations is growing, and will grow much more if LPFM rules are loosened.

As for healthcare, I won't get into a political argument with you, but suffice it to say that the US spends more *per capita* on health care out of the world's 37 most industrialized nations...all of which offer some form of "socialized" healthcare except for...you guessed it...the USA!

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The only reason one can't get a license right now is because one can't apply. No one is saying to throw law out the window, but to change regulations to allow new broadcasters onto the airwaves legally. As for money, it's more than just application fees, and you know it, just as you surely know that the FCC could use a boost in its staffing levels regardless of any new stations that go on the air. And even with today's rules, the amount of radio stations is growing, and will grow much more if LPFM rules are loosened.

One can get a license right now. It's called "Go purchase an existing station." Go anywhere in this country you like, pull off the road in some same place to park your car, and start tuning up and down the dial. It will quickly become obvious the current owners of many stations have run out of ideas on what to broadcast. (Who on the worst day of their life would choose to put some of this tripe on the air?)

So what would all these anxious new "I want a new license" folks do that would not simply duplicate what is already out there? There are only 12 tones in the musical scale we in the Western world use. And yet a gifted composer can find inspiration for a brand new song never before created by mankind. So, out of the thousand of US (that would include me) who are sure we could operate a radio station in a new and creative way, there are probably 6 or 8 people who would actually do something novel, inspirational and creative if we obtained a license, new or used.

So. What's a congressman to do? Over here we have neo11 and 10,000 wanna-be's (that would include me) saying "change the law, give US a new license". The congressman knows that maybe 6 or 8 would so something worthwhile and the other 9,992 we be out there treading water, presiding over a ugly-baby train-wreck bunch of useless sound. Then the congressman knows there are, what?, maybe 16,000 existing broadcasters who would find the value of their franchise reduced by the introduction of all these new licenses.

Let them open up an LPFM Application Window. They will receive 8,000 to 10,000 applications (if they remove 3rd adjacency) of which 80% will be local fronts for the national satellite religion broadcasters. It will take six or seven years for the FCC to wade through all the applications and grant Construction Permits. And ten years from today another generation will be posting messages that the reason we still have pirate stations is because we need more licenses!

What I really wanted to do was to be the best, most innovative News and Farm Director some regional radio station could ever hope to have on their staff. With the coming of more and more stations it was obvious the station of the future could not afford to do that kind of programming. Today my brother-in-law, the modern day farmer, doesn't need a radio station with a newscaster and farm director. He has cheap, cheap long distance and a computer. What ever info he needs he get on his timetable, and he picks the source of the information, not some station owner who wouldn't know a legume from a lagoon.

So if we all lobby congress and the FCC and get you a freshly minted license for some kind of radio station, what would you do with it that I can't already duplicate by turning on my computer and punching up something OAKTREE or someone else is already doing?

 

[TheBigA]

My suggestion was to allow more broadcasters to obtain a license to broadcast. Nothing foreign about that idea...it's behind the push to relax the LPFM rules from the ridiculous third-adjacent protection that exists currently, for instance.

They don't have to wait for LPFM. They can buy an existing station now. I started a station from scratch and I can tell you that becoming legal isn't easy and it isn't cheap. If they're thinking getting an LPFM CP will be cheaper than buying an existing station, that's only true in the short run.

Lots of these pirates aren't American citizens. Particularly the ones I know in the NYC area. They're pirates because of citizenship reasons, not money. And the Congress is not going to loosen up those restrictions.

The only reason one can't get a license right now is because one can't apply.

You keep saying that as though it's true. It's not. Any US citizen can apply for a license. There are lots of dark frequencies in lots of big cities. Most on AM. But as I said, just because I want a house in Key West doesn't justify me breaking into one there.

Also, the US government is trillions of dollars in debt. It is not going to spend any more money on FCC staffing. That is simply unrealistic.

I consult a lot of LPFM stations, and I can tell you that most are operating in the red. Putting more stations on the air just means more stations operating on the verge of closure.

 

[Nostalgia]

I have to jump in here to make one point re LPFM. Sure I would've liked to have one, until I met a guy who has one. The conumdrum for LPFMs is this: we rant and rave about all the applications filed by religous broadcasters but they can get on their airwaves and beg for money and people WILL send money. Folks like us (and I include myself in this category) who would like an outlet for our idea of what real radio should be like today would not be able to run commercials to generate revenue and as for asking people for money to listen to music radio that they can hear for free all over the dial, well good luck with that. So unless we hit the powerball, our little station is doomed from the getgo. Other posters elsewhere on this board made the comment, if you are not in the NCE portion of the band let'em run commercials. I agree. What were they thinking when they made these non-comm LPFM licenses available? If it was to allow more religious broadcasters, then they succeeded. But if it was to open up opportunities for varied formats of local radio, minority ownership, ect then the FCC was cruelly setting most of these folks up for failure. Dont start bombarding me with success stories, I know there are some music and entertainment formats operating out there, but I have to ask how, and for how much longer???? If you want to tell me about them then answer those questions.

Pardon the poor spelling, grammer, and punctuation. I should know better than to post messages after midnight ;D

 

[johnbasalla]

The FCC needs to be mindful of creating interference problems by having stations on the same frequency too close to eachother. No one is served with station's signals clashing.

 

[TheBigA]

What were they thinking when they made these non-comm LPFM licenses available?

You need to get back to the concept of non-commercial radio. The purpose is community radio, pure and simple, supported by the community, and not subject the all the pressures of commercial radio. Let's face it: If you're a low power station, you're not going to attract advertising because you're not going to show up in the ratings. You only cover a fraction of the market. People will support your station for what you do, not the audience you attract. So it's a very different way of thinking, and is pure public service, not smaller versions of formats already available in the market.

The only way to do these stations (other than religious) is as an all-volunteer operation, in conjunction with other community institutions, like community colleges, libraries, or museums. Otherwise, you're throwing your money away.

 

[Nostalgia]

BigA I hear what you are saying, but just exactly how is the community going to support the radio station? Volunteer labor is fine I guess (and the station will probably sound like it), but what about the cost of equipment, maintenance and upkeep, utility bills, maybe some office or tower rent, and all the other things that cost green dollars. Where are those green dollars coming from? Donation jar at the 7-11, Paypal button on your website, annual on air beg-a-thons? Farmer Brown loves the station so much he drops off a chicken (still alive) now and then ;D

I maintain that a LPFM would not get national accounts since they dont show up in the ratings, and of course many of the small communities served are not even in rated markets. But if the local plumber wants to throw a couple of bucks at the station to get his name heard by the local townsfolk, then that is the kind of support I am talking about. This guy is not going to pay $100+ per :30 on the #1 rated C1 FM covering 4 counties 1. because he cant afford it, 2. his customers are going to be within a small geographical area, not out in the 50/50 fringe of the big C1. It will be the plumbers (lets call him Joe) ONLY opportunity for affordable radio advertising. Say the station wants to broadcast the local high school football game. This costs some money for any kind of RPU and all the local merchants who are spending advertising dollars to be in the printed program would fall over themselves to get their names on the radio. COMMUNITY SUPPORT! The examples are endless, but the basic premise of green dollars going out must be matched by green dollars coming in or the project is doomed. Even a non-profit organization has to pay the electric bill!!!

One last point, you need to get back to the concept of Non Commercial Educational radio. The NCE band was set aside for universities, NPR, ect to have frequencies available for the purposes you describe but for the most part these large organizations have sources of funding not available to the non-religious LPFM's. Lets take your example one step further. Say you are a commercial low power 1kw AM or class A FM, limited coverage, probably not huge ratings, does that mean you should just throw in the towel because of coverage from a nearby 50kw or C1 FM. True, these small guys are scraping to get by but they are doing so with ad dollars from smaller, local merchants who see them as their only radio advertising opportunity. (and probably the only station that is actually calling on them seeking their business!)

 

[TheBigA]

BigA I hear what you are saying, but just exactly how is the community going to support the radio station?

It depends on the community and the local services available. Schools, libraries, and other taxpayer-based operations.

Re-read my post. I gave you all the information you need. Then read up on the law regarding sponsorship mentions, and what's permissable. You CAN give the name and phone number of any donor. You can't give a "call to action."

 

[nd2023]

There are a lot of advertisers on some pirate stations. Some of that ad revenue is stolen from licensed stations. The pirates can afford to charge less for advertising as they don't have to pay for a license.

 

[edarmsttrong]

This should open people's eyes up to the fact that low power stations can co-exist on first and second adjacent channels, with minimal interference.

BTW, I had a little station in my rural town, running 1 (One) watt, and the feds called my house and told me to shut it off. Why? Because my station sounded better than any of the commercial stations here! The engineer at one of the stations contacted them and cried like a baby. Too bad he could keep both his left and right channels at an even level. Boo Hoo...

As a matter of fact, I was the only station here utilizing RDBS to identify the artist and title of EVERY song... ;D

 

[TheBigA]

This should open people's eyes up to the fact that low power stations can co-exist on first and second adjacent channels, with minimal interference.

I disagree with that, and feel that you can't make such a blanket statement without looking at the specific circumstances, the spacing in a particular market, and the various other particulars including the use of subcarriers and IBOC. The spectrum hasn't been allocated in a simple or consistent way. So to simply drop additional stations in without examining all the circumstances would be a mistake. And it is the primary responsibility of the government and the FCC to keep watch over the airwaves with the same care and concern as it does to all other federal resources.

 

[edarmsttrong]

I agree that channel assignment needs to be done in an orderly fasion, but the whole myth that LPFMs would interfere with full power stations on first and second adjacents, was conjured up by the NAB/NPR.

In most cases, it would work...even better after IBOC goes way like AM stereo did...

 

[TheBigA]

the whole myth that LPFMs would interfere with full power stations on first and second adjacents, was conjured up by the NAB/NPR.

Even the Prometheus Radio Project supports protecting first and second adjacents.

And you used the term "minimal interference" in your previous post. Minimal interference still qualifies as interference in my book. If it interferes, it's not good.

 

[edarmsttrong]

I value the Prometheus Project's opinon as much as a wooden nickel.

Call them sometime, and tell them you want to start an LPFM. I did. They will tell you "Sorry, there are no LPFM licenses available." Nevermind preparing for the next window...they got what they wanted, screw everyone else.

If a translator can live on a first or second adjacent, why can't an LPFM?

 

[TheBigA]

If a translator can live on a first or second adjacent, why can't an LPFM?

Translators must protect first adjacents, and there's a lot of paperwork required to get on to a second adjacent. And translators support primary stations, which operate with far more requirements than an LPFM.

 

[nd2023]

This should open people's eyes up to the fact that low power stations can co-exist on first and second adjacent channels, with minimal interference.

BTW, I had a little station in my rural town, running 1 (One) watt, and the feds called my house and told me to shut it off. Why? Because my station sounded better than any of the commercial stations here! The engineer at one of the stations contacted them and cried like a baby. Too bad he could keep both his left and right channels at an even level. Boo Hoo...

As a matter of fact, I was the only station here utilizing RDBS to identify the artist and title of EVERY song... ;D

The FCC actually called you to shut it off? That seems more like a prank call or the engineer of a licensed station would do that. I ran a 2 watt (approximate) station when I was in high school, it was on for a year and a half and nothing happened. I stopped running it when the transmitter broke and I didn't feel like keeping it on the air. The FCC usually sends letters to pirate stations.
Now you can get a 1000 watt station in your rural area and just ignore any calls or letters.

 

[edarmsttrong]

The FCC actually called you to shut it off? That seems more like a prank call or the engineer of a licensed station would do that.

When the caller ID displays, US GOVT. FCC one tends to notice. They did call, and I still have the message the agent left to this day. They were too busy with the DTV transition to come visit me. Some of the haters at radio stations in my area know me well enough to know I have other FCC authorizations, and I considered the call from them 'a shot over the bow'...the only unlicensed RF coming from my house these days is from phones or Wifi AP.

 

[radioplayer]

I have to jump in and support the Big A on this one. The legal LPFM's that I know of are poorly maintained, lack basic programming and are more a nostaglic notion then any sort of meaningful public service. I also note that the majority of "would be/wanna be" broadcasters also think that there's MONEY in an LP....there is not. As someone posted previously, the current situation is an NCE operation and that's a tough sell (pardon the pun) in this current climate to say the least.

On point to the real title of this thread, there are just too many people abusing their 'idea' or their version of LPFM, making it worse for everyone else, including their own legitimate LP brothers out there. The FCC can't chase down everyone who decides to get a cheap, off phased transmitter (another good reason not to let anything go on the air) and just do their own thing.... anymore than your local state police can really pull over every car that exceeds the posted limit on your local interstate.

 

[Gatekeeper007]

Pirate stations and LPFM stations are two different stories altogether. We are an LPFM station in our 9th year of operation and let me tell you you are right when you say there is no money in LPFM. I will agree that the Joe the plumer reasoning is very true. As for equiment we run a CCA transmitter with a Harris RF amp and an optomod 8100a audio processer on our main frequecy. We have two translators using Nicom transmitters to repeat our signal now I will tell you we sound as good as any commerical station on the air and yes the equiment isn't cheap. If I had to get a licensee to start an LPFM station today much less the translators it would never happen, just cost too much.