Top-40 AMs transition in the 80s.

[michael hagerty]

By the 70's, songs stayed on the station charts longer - could you explain what the reasoning behind this was? Burnout was still a thing (my mom listened much less than she did in the 60's and she never returned to Top 40 radio). Was it something to do with audience demographics, the available music?

Bill Drake left RKO in May of 1973 and the chain hired Paul Drew to be VP of Programming. Drew believed in playing it safe on new music (so there was less of that) and also believed songs had longer shelf lives than Drake did.

Drew was successful, and so stations nationwide began to copy it.

I don't have a date when it happened, but looking at back issues of Billboard, by 1975, Paul Drew was consulting KAKC.

If I recall correctly, when RKO moved Drake from a consultant to a VP of the company in late '72, one of the conditions was that he drop his outside stations (he'd already lost KGB in San Diego early that year). Drew probably snagged the KAKC consultancy then.

 

[michael hagerty]

WRKO played Skip a Rope and The Son of Hickory Holler's Tramp. How did Drake come to the conclusion that those songs would work in Boston?

Drake wasn't involved in every music decision. That could have been WRKO's PD.

The big question is...did they? Looks like "Skip A Rope" stiffed out at #19 after three weeks, ARSA's WBZ charts are incomplete, but it made at least #13 there, and that was a jump from #17, so there was momentum.

"Son of Hickory Holler's Tramp" peaked at #5 on WRKO, so....I guess it worked in Boston.

 

[davideduardo]

WRKO played Skip a Rope and The Son of Hickory Holler's Tramp. How did Drake come to the conclusion that those songs would work in Boston?

This brings up the question of whether Bill Drake actually supervised and approved every and and drop and move on the playlist of every station. Or did the local PDs have a degree of freedom in doing what their market seemed to need. I know that one of the reasons Tom rounds left KFRC was his disagreement with Drake (and "the keeper of the keys") on the inclusion of harder rock songs in San Francisco.

 

[michael hagerty]

This brings up the question of whether Bill Drake actually supervised and approved every and and drop and move on the playlist of every station. Or did the local PDs have a degree of freedom in doing what their market seemed to need. I know that one of the reasons Tom rounds left KFRC was his disagreement with Drake (and "the keeper of the keys") on the inclusion of harder rock songs in San Francisco.

If you compare playlists and add dates (ARSA makes that easy), you can see that there absolutely were variations.

That said, Drake did impose "chain-wide adds" for the RKO stations (as did Paul Drew after him), and, in the case of KFRC, he pushed Rounds too much to be Drake's idea of "mass appeal." Drake was the squarest Southern boy imaginable and misunderstood San Francisco. KFRC only really began to excel when he put Sebastian Stone in as PD in 1972. Stone had been with him for seven years at that point, had been at KFRC before, and Drake listened to him to a degree that he didn't Rounds, Turpin, Atkins or Drew.

 

[briancraig]

A late friend of mine, Jack Parnell, was a PD at WHBQ in Memphis and said he had to get permission to add records from a woman who I think he said her name was Betty.

He said it could be frustrating when she would tell you they didn’t think a record was right for Memphis because WHBQ unlike KHJ had been a successful top 40 since the 1950s long before Drake was consulting RKO and he didn’t think he needed their advice.

 

[michael hagerty]

A late friend of mine, Jack Parnell, was a PD at WHBQ in Memphis and said he had to get permission to add records from a woman who I think he said her name was Betty.

Betty Brenneman, KHJ's Music Director. She'd been with Drake since 1965 and could work with both him and Ron Jacobs (no small feat).

He said it could be frustrating when she would tell you they didn’t think a record was right for Memphis because WHBQ unlike KHJ had been a successful top 40 since the 1950s long before Drake was consulting RKO and he didn’t think he needed their advice.

True. I'm sure Drake's Southern roots (he was from Georgia) probably made him think he understood the whole South.

There were Drake MDs with autonomy. Betty Brenemann did NOT tell Rosalie Trombley at CKLW what to play and what not to. But then Rosalie was a force of nature.

 

[briancraig]

Thanks Michael for remembering Betty Brenemann.

Jack always said they were usually ok with his ads. WHBQ’s tv station had a long running Bandstand type show from the 50s to the 70s, originally hosted by Wink Martindale but in the 60s by Elvis friend George Klein. Many of the local acts that appeared on this program have records that show up on Q radio surveys, so they were receptive to local music.

But the record that really got to him was a local soul instrumental called Soul Serenade by Willie Mitchell. For weeks, he tried to get her to ok it saying it was selling well and was a hit at competitor WMPS and of course on the R&B stations. By the time Betty finally let him play it, it had already run its course locally. To add insult to injury, they even added it at KHJ after weeks of saying it wasn’t right for Memphis.

Jack decided to go back to just being a Q dj and told RKO they needed a PD who could better work with the Drake and especially Bill Watson way of doing things. So Drake brought in Scotty Seagraves to be PD from the non RKO Drake station in Tulsa.

 

[Dondd]

what if it was John Lennon instead of Paul McCartney, and the record was You Know My Name (Look Up My Number)?

If you ever wanted to hear Ron Jacobs scream into a phone, that would do it.

That would've been a train wreck.

Which I think supports my "feelings." Definitely not a song that survived as a gold.

There are many songs that, while popular in the day (many did go to No. 1), aren't today and would only be heard on yearly countdowns.

Some

• Speedy Gonzalez
• Ahab The Arab
• Dominique (kept Louie, Louie from No. 1)
• Honey
• The Green Berets
• Snoopy Vs. Red Baron
• They're Coming to Take Me Away
• My Ding-a-Ling
• Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia
• Half Breed
• Gypsies Tramps and Thieves
• Angie Baby
• I Am Woman
• Having My Baby
• The Night Chicago Died
• The Streak
• Disco Duck
• Ring My Bell
• I've Never Been to Me

 

[K.M. Richards]

There are many songs that, while popular in the day (many did go to No. 1), aren't today and would only be heard on yearly countdowns.

• We Built This City

You're wrong on that one. It still gets a lot of Classic Hits airplay. (Year-to-date: #229, with a cumulative total of 3,439 plays across all stations in the format monitored by Mediabase.)

For reference: #1 is "Every Breath You Take" with 4,834 spins.

 

[michael hagerty]

You're wrong on that one. It still gets a lot of Classic Hits airplay.

And before we start, it's only been five months since we did 11 pages on it, so...

https://radiodiscussions.com/threads/how-was-we-built-this-city-considered-bad.775905/

 

[Dondd]

The LA stations were faster at adding top hits.

Looking over the KRLA and KFWB-each-Boys charts, I see on KRLA's chart, Good Vibrations peaked at No. 1 faster than nationally and listed it as its No. 1 for a couple of weeks, A MONTH before it hit No. 1 on Billboard.

krla110566

Same with KHJ.
khj110966

Interestingly, on KFW-Beach Boys' chart, the great song (arguably the greatest song of the 60s), didn't hit No. 1.
kfwb661115

 

[Dondd]

You're wrong on that one. It still gets a lot of Classic Hits airplay.

You're right. I removed it as there was still time to edit the post.
The song, like Kokomo, often gets listed as the worst song of all time.

I almost put Kokomo on the list, but realize it still gets airplay, like the Starship song.

 

[K.M. Richards]

You're right. I removed it as there was still time to edit the post.
The song, like Kokomo, often gets listed as the worst song of all time.

By people who are usually later proven to be people who aren't radio users to a significant degree.

 

[Mark Roberts]

And before we start, it's only been five months since we did 11 pages on it, so...

https://radiodiscussions.com/threads/how-was-we-built-this-city-considered-bad.775905/

It's a recurrent!

 

[davideduardo]

By people who are usually later proven to be people who aren't radio users to a significant degree.

I, for one, being well known for having taste that includes cumbias, disco and 60's country, love Kokomo. The drink juggling scene in the video is timeless and the song is catchy and just one of those meaningless but fun tunes that I don't mind hearing again.

In fact, I am going to YouTube to see it again, along with Alan Jackson and Jimmy Buffett's "It's Five O'Clock Somewhere". Oh, and while I am at it, "Always on my Mind" in both the Pet Shop Boys and Willie's versions. Heck, even the sentimental Elvis and Brenda Lee versions are fun occasionally!

Of course, I am the radio groupie who actually had the luck to work in that amusement park called broadcasting.

 

[michael hagerty]

The LA stations were faster at adding top hits.

This was a factor of competition. There was a four-way Top 40 battle the day KHJ entered---KBLA, KFWB and KRLA were already in the format.

KBLA dropped out in June of 1967 and KFWB in February of 1968, but KDAY jumped in by that fall and KGBS right on its heels. And then KKDJ in 1971, as KDAY was moving out of the format.

The best way to distinguish yourself was to be "the station where you hear the hits first".

Looking over the KRLA and KFWB-each-Boys charts, I see on KRLA's chart, Good Vibrations peaked at No. 1 faster than nationally and listed it as its No. 1 for a couple of weeks, A MONTH before it hit No. 1 on Billboard.

krla110566

Same with KHJ.
khj110966

Interestingly, on KFW-Beach Boys' chart, the great song (arguably the greatest song of the 60s), didn't hit No. 1.
kfwb661115

By 1966, KFWB was really on its last legs as a Top 40 station. They sold to Westinghouse at the end of the year and (apart from B. Mitchel Reed's nighttime show and Dave Diamond when he joined in June of '67) really became an early Adult Contemporary---trying to find a musical position between KHJ and KMPC. When that failed, they went News.

 

[Dondd]

By 1966, KFWB was really on its last legs as a Top 40 station. They sold to Westinghouse at the end of the year and (apart from B. Mitchel Reed's nighttime show and Dave Diamond when he joined in June of '67) really became an early Adult Contemporary---trying to find a musical position between KHJ and KMPC. When that failed, they went News.

B. Mitchel Reed was one great voice. He sounded so excited and full of energy, an element absent from much of today's radio "announcers," the few that exist in this post-radio era.

Only discovered him this past month listening to KHJ, KFWB and KRLA airchecks, first interested in hearing The Real Don Steel.
For some reason, The Real Don Steele entered my mind and my first hearing of him through his 1990s syndicated oldies show where he talked fast as always and presented one high energy show. Wasn't aware of LA radio, Boss Jocks or much radio outside of the evening AM clear channels I heard in the 70s and 80s.

I liked hearing Real Don Steele's KHJ airchecks plus others from that station and the others listed. Real radio, to be sure that sounded nothing like today's LA AM and FM bands when I visited the city in my rental car a year ago.

 

[michael hagerty]

B. Mitchel Reed was one great voice. He sounded so excited and full of energy, an element absent from much of today's radio "announcers," the few that exist in this post-radio era.

BMR is one of the few Top 40 jocks that successfully transitioned to album rock. He, Tom Donahue, Shadoe Stevens, Shana and Bill Todd (Johnny Williams at WRKO and Cat Simon at KHJ, because KHJ already had a Johnny Williams) are the ones that spring to mind immediately.

 

[michael hagerty]

The LA stations were faster at adding top hits.

Looking over the KRLA and KFWB-each-Boys charts, I see on KRLA's chart, Good Vibrations peaked at No. 1 faster than nationally and listed it as its No. 1 for a couple of weeks, A MONTH before it hit No. 1 on Billboard.

krla110566

Same with KHJ.
khj110966

Interestingly, on KFW-Beach Boys' chart, the great song (arguably the greatest song of the 60s), didn't hit No. 1.
kfwb661115

Back to this for a moment----

You cannot underestimate the effects of being in L.A., where at that time, most of the hits were being recorded and where most of the artists and label executives lived. These people were in frequent if not constant contact, and promotion people used exclusives as currency. ]

Sometimes that would be a station exclusive (KHJ first, or KRLA first, or KFWB) but more often it was a market exclusive. L.A. would get its promo copies a week ahead of the rest of the country. Sometimes they'd get them before the promo copies had even been pressed---either acetates or a reel of tape.

And that was easy to do in those days. It took three to five days to get something in the mail across the country. A promo person could jump in their car, hand-deliver the record to KHJ and KFWB, scoot out to Pasadena to give KRLA theirs and be back at their desk in an hour.

 

[ted chittenden]

The LA stations were faster at adding top hits.

Looking over the KRLA and KFWB-each-Boys charts, I see on KRLA's chart, Good Vibrations peaked at No. 1 faster than nationally and listed it as its No. 1 for a couple of weeks, A MONTH before it hit No. 1 on Billboard.

krla110566

Same with KHJ.
khj110966

Interestingly, on KFW-Beach Boys' chart, the great song (arguably the greatest song of the 60s), didn't hit No. 1.
kfwb661115

Keep in mind that with the arrival of KHJ on the scene and its almost immediate impact on the ratings at the time, the other LA top 40 stations were trying to figure out ways to best the newcomer. KBLA tried to out-KHJ KHJ--they hired Humble Harv away from KHJ (briefly) before he returned to the KHJ fold. IF KBLA had had better reception outside of the San Fernando Valley, they might have pulled it off.

Initially, KRLA took other routes. Starting in the summer of 1966 and lasting most of the rest of that year, KRLA became an "all-request all of the time" radio station (there's a great aircheck of Dave Hull doing this format on both the old and new Reelradio sites as well as elsewhere on August 1, 1966). In 1967, KRLA tried to win fans back by trying to play hipper (i.e. more hard rock) than KHJ (there is a great display of this format with Casey Kasem from June 1967 on the start date of the Monterey Pop Festival.) At one time, KRLA even went to an automated top-40 format during late 1968 and early 1969. KRLA ultimately had its best success against KHJ when Johnnie Darren was program director between 1970 and 1971.

In fact, Johnnie was so successful that he was fired for that success. At the time, it was owned by the same non-profit organization that owned KAET Channel 28 (one of Los Angeles' two PBS affiliates) and the rumor was that Board members were jockeying to buy the station but they didn't want to pay the higher cost if it had beatedn KHJ in the ratings.

Ultimately, Art LaBoe (with some assistance from comedian Bob Hope) wound up purchasing the station. And, because of the late Mr. LaBoe's support of Los Angeles' black and Hispanic communities, KRLA became a much more rhythmic-leaning top 40 with a lot of oldies on the playlist than it had been in the past and that allowed it ultimately to outlast KHJ.

KFWB continued to do what it had been doing, and, as Michael Hagerty has already noted, completely floundered as a top-40 station as a result.

Anyway, this is primarily why the weekly charts, especially those at KRLA, were so different in late 1966.