Toyotas Getting HD et al.

[dumber than a box of hair]

Toyota's answer to the Ford Sync system will apparently include HD, among other things:

http://www.allaccess.com/net-news/a...stem-includes-pandora-hd-radio?ref=mail_recap

 

[TVradioguru]

My wife is driving her second Lexus which had more technology that essentially Ford copied with their Sync system. Bluetooth, USB, voice recognition, etc. That being said, her car doesn't have HD radio. My BMW does though and it seems to work fine around LA.

If Toyota starts rolling out HD in their higher-end entertainment systems with satellite navigation, you know Honda will follow. If both Honda and Toyota start carrying HD radio, then that could be a serious boost for HD radio, in spite of what the naysayers claim. We'll see I guess!

 

[Casey]

This is only going to be offered in a select few Toyota vehicles. It will hardly make much of an impact. Few people will even know they are listening to HD Radio. Not to mention that Pandora is also being offered and it will be very easy to attach smartphones/music players to add more options.

Honda is not guaranteed to follow either. They will no doubt launch a service that is similar, but HD Radio is not a given. HD Radio is no more a high-end entertainment service than AM/FM. Same shallow playlists, same poorly managed stations with worse coverage. Some of the stations do offer commercial-free sub stations. Do you honestly think it will stay that way? Not a chance. If it competes with the main station and draws away listeners, then they will need to make up for the advertising money lost somehow. They always want more money and advertising is how they get it.

Regardless, it is too little too late.

 

[Savage]

Indeed, guru. "We will see."

(As we have seen thus far.)

 

[L. DeForest]

I wouldn't get too excited about this. Select models is meaningless and it's not been much of a selling point on other upscale vehicles that offer it. "Select models" won't save it from the tech-no-heap. It's been around now for what... seven years or so with very heavy promotion and still doesn't even move the radar needle. Not a good track record.

 

[Ai4i]

If it competes with the main station and draws away listeners, then they will need to make up for the advertising money lost somehow.

BUT...many stations are doing [with their HD sub-channels] what AM's did with their FM's, back in the day.
They are running completely different formats which will draw totally different audiences.

 

[JimmyJames]

Public radio stations are also doing innovative things with HD radio. Lumping all HD radio formats into the same pile isn't accurate.

 

[Casey]

If it competes with the main station and draws away listeners, then they will need to make up for the advertising money lost somehow.

BUT...many stations are doing [with their HD sub-channels] what AM's did with their FM's, back in the day.
They are running completely different formats which will draw totally different audiences.

True. That may not be the right move though. The formats they are putting on their HD sub-channels are often not well known music. This is great for some people who love that type of music, but it will never draw many listeners. If HD radio is to succeed, it needs to have a major drive. Most people do not care all that much about the sound quality versus decent FM. Most people do not care about non-mainstream formats either. But they do care about hearing their current favorites. If stations started migrating major shows such as Rush Limbaugh to HD only, people would migrate at a much higher rate. Whether or not you like Rush, you cannot deny that his show brings in the listeners. I personally would hate this kind of forced movement, but it would get listeners moving.

The major problem facing HD FM radio is not the massive competition or even technical difficulties. It is the lack of a need to migrate. Why would someone in a major market with already tons of stations to listen to, switch to HD? The longer HD radio sits doing nothing, the deeper the competition will drive into the total listeners. This is a problem, but it can be beat if radio stations would get on the ball. Satellite radio continues to rise in costs and Internet radio will always be at the mercy of the ISP. The only thing stopping HD radio from succeeding is the stations themselves.

 

[landtuna]

Limbaugh would lose virtually his entire audience were it to move to HD. Not enough HD radio's in cars and practically none in home or office. Not gonna happen.

Not to mention that putting a talk show on HD completely removes the reason for the improved (?) technology. HD is for music and music seems to be a dying format.

 

[Casey]

I highly doubt he would lose all his listeners if the transition was done slowly. People enjoy listening to him. If he and some other major talk show hosts were slowly transitioned to HD radio, it would only be a matter of time before people decide to invest in an HD radio. Did people stop watching TV when the digital transition happened? Some went to cable/satellite, just like some people would move to Internet radio or satellite. But the majority would stay with traditional radio, HD or not. Howard Stern lost some listeners because he moved behind a pay wall with expensive hardware. Over a million still followed him, far more than a million would follow Rush.

HD radio is certainly not all about music, nor is music dying. It is more about the sub channels and attempting to enter the digital age than the music. Sub channels often have poorer sound quality than main channels, perfect for talk/news radio. As far as music dying, that is certainly not true. Sales are dying, but music itself is not.

With all that said, I do not think HD radio will succeed. I personally do not want it to succeed, I like analog radio. But it could succeed if the people behind it got creative. You have to look at reality. If stations got aggressive, it very possibly could succeed. The fact that it has been around for 7 years is irrelevant. Pandora was founded in 2000 and it did not experience significant growth until the company got creative. The fact that HD radio is an engineering nightmare is irrelevant. The listeners do not know or care. Listeners just want it to work "good enough."

 

[tomservo]

What… no snarky posts about how this will lead to another Toyota recall, or how people will complain to Toyota in droves? You people are losing your edge.

I think back to when Toyota offered AM stereo "in select models". They put it in the mid level radio only, so premium users and basic radio users were left out. Not many cars out there with the "mid level" radios. I wonder how they'll do HD?

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I highly doubt he would lose all his listeners if the transition was done slowly.

Doubt it all you want, but remember who you're talking about: the 55+ demo who traditionally is much harder to sell to, and traditionally the last demo to adopt new technology. Moving him to HD only is a great way to see his audience vanish.

 

[BRNout]

I highly doubt he would lose all his listeners if the transition was done slowly.

Doubt it all you want, but remember who you're talking about: the 55+ demo who traditionally is much harder to sell to, and traditionally the last demo to adopt new technology. Moving him to HD only is a great way to see his audience vanish.

This would never, ever, happen so it's a waste of time to even muse about it. Right now, Limbaugh is on as much "HD radio" as he's ever going to be. No programming options of significant value will ever be limited to HD-only. For one thing, that would mean HD-2 or HD-3 only and nobody listens to those streams. Unless they're picked up by a local analog translator. And then the product wouldn't be HD-only, now would it?

All this excitement when a car manufacturer happens to offer an optional audio system that includes HD is very misguided and silly. Why? Well, because if having a few receivers out there meant anything in the marketplace - then we'd all be enjoying C-QUAM AM stereo right now. Far more radios with C-QUAM compatible receivers were made and sold than HD, and that was during a time period when there was radio, cassette and not much else. Nowadays, the consumer interest totally leaps beyond 'HD radio' to web streaming.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: "HD radio" is a 1990's solution to a 2010's marketplace. That's why it's flying like a dodo bird. Yeah, it may hang around for a while (especially on FM) - but it's never going to be the standard. Because people don't give a damn about it, nor will they spend a dime for it. It just doesn't have enough value for the average consumer to bother.

 

[Savage]

Yep. Fully 20 years outmoded, a real-world factor which would doom HD - even if it worked consistently (and it doesn't) and didn't cost a ludicrous amount of money (which it does.)

No real need = no interest. Even the few station operators which have HD view it with mingled suspicion and contempt, since it holds the potential to fragment audiences in an economically fragile marketplace. Yeah, yeah - I know, there are exceptions, so please don't bother trotting out isolated and nonrepresentative cases like WAMU.

Like BRNout says, there's enough here to keep HD stumbling along as an interference-plagued digital SCA and low-cost low-quality alternate channels for pubcasters....until something better comes along. Other than that it's dead.

While we're at it: where are the glowing reviews about how the digital power increase has vastly improved HD-FM's fortunes?? (How many stations out of 1400 actually did this - what was it, 75??)

 

[clouseau]

People, People, People...

I'm SO disappointed.

OK, actually I'm not disapointed with the news. I AM disappointed by the "vast wasteland" of detractors here. Apparently they are like the liberals. Too arrogantly sure of their position to actually consider that someone like Toyota might actually EMBRACE HD radio. When they get the announcement, they'll stupified. No intelligent comment.

Your hero Joe Biden might proclaim this a "BIG "F'n" deal". I suspect many won't think so.

My comments are a joke, folks. This story isn't really news. That's because HD radio for FM is not news, it's a fact. It works (Such as it does) and it has listeners (Just like the first FM's)

At the risk of aligning with the wrong group...

"We're here. We're Queer... Get used to it"...

Or maybe I need to lament how FM stereo has destroyed the s/n ratio of mono FM listening.

I'm sure many of you will.

Clouseau

(Official member of the "HD radio" Drive By Media)

Does anyone else think this is fighting against color TV?

Just a thought.

 

[nd2023]

They better offer an option to turn off HD, or else people will not like it if stations don't sync analog and HD or process them differently.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Does anyone else think this is fighting against color TV?
Just a thought.

In many ways I compare HD to the early version of color TV - with the mechanical spinning color wheel. Both systems were very deficient at what they do, and both have been eclipsed by better alternatives. HD wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the interference to neighboring stations, but that problem is very real for short-spaced allocations. I notice that the new year brings three fewer HD subchannels in the S.F. Bay Area, but so far none of the FM's have actually turned off their HD transmitters.

Dave B.

 

[tomservo]

I don't have a link, but I just saw where VW is offering HD in their touch screen Premium Sound radios for the 2012 MY.

 

[Savage]

Welcome back, Inspector - and Happy New Year!! Sincerely!

If Toyota's "embracing" HD, they resemble nothing more than somebody embracing a cactus. HD is only available in high-end premium systems on "select models" as opposed to across-the-board. The systems also include XM-Sirius and internet connectivity a la Ford's Sync. (See elsewhere on this board.) Promotional literature for the high-end systems omit any references to HD.

Anyone care to hazard a guess how much, in this entertainment-communication package, HD brings to the table?

I don't get the relevance of your references to Color TV and FM Stereo. Obviously today's media marketplace bears about as much resemblance to RCA-NTSC 1954 and GE-Zenith 1960, as Baldwin steam locomotives do to supersonic stealth jet fighters. Is the Model T's success a predictor for the Chevy Volt? I don't think so.

I'd be careful about employing Joe Biden quotes to describe HD developments. "Unintentionally funny results may occur. User discretion advised."

I continue to wish you well......enjoy the hiss!

 

[BRNout]

OK, actually I'm not disapointed with the news. I AM disappointed by the "vast wasteland" of detractors here. Apparently they are like the liberals. Too arrogantly sure of their position to actually consider that someone like Toyota might actually EMBRACE HD radio. When they get the announcement, they'll stupified. No intelligent comment.

Comparing me to a liberal? Now I've seen everything! :

Or maybe I need to lament how FM stereo has destroyed the s/n ratio of mono FM listening.

I'm sure many of you will.

Clouseau

(Official member of the "HD radio" Drive By Media)

Does anyone else think this is fighting against color TV?

Just a thought.

You're grasping at straws, my dear Inspector. For one thing, the advent of FM stereo didn't affect non-stereo tuners in any way. The audio sounded the same on those units whether broadcast in stereo or not; but it was a significant improvement for those receivers equipped with stereo reception. In fringe areas, where stereo reception enhanced the static, those receivers featured (and still does) "off" switches which defeated the system - returning the audio to its former monaural glory.

Same is true of color TV, the implementation of color TV was a vast improvement over black and white for those with the means to buy a color set. For those without color sets, it made no difference.

In each of your examples, significant value was added to the product to the extent that the consumer had a great deal of interest in the new technology and eventually spent the money (when he finally had it and when prices finally dropped) to obtain said product. In the case of HD radio, very little added value is realized and there is virtually no consumer interest in the product - despite several years of heavy promotion.

One last variable that renders your analogies moot: "FM stereo" and "color TV" had no direct competitors. Stereo phonographs were around, yes, but did not represent a direct competitor to FM stereo. If anything, people bought a HiFi in order to hear BOTH. As far as color TV went, there was no direct competitor at the time. The cinema doesn't count as a 'direct' competitor either.

And, HD radio? It's direct competition is the concept of internet streaming, something that's available on every smartphone and computer and even on a few internet radio "receivers". And that competitor has not only been placed in 10s of millions of consumers pockets, but it also offers thousands of times more content choices. Even the Toyota "HD" radio vaunted in this thread offers Pandora. And let me tell you, teenage relatives of mine are into Pandora and couldn't care less about 'HD radio'. To them, it's as hip as shortwave.

There's your trouble and there's no getting out of it.