Tradio style call-in shows.

[Bill Betten]

Has anyone produced/listened to a show on a Non Community radio station?

 

[cd637299]

Sometimes I listen to WSWN AM 900 Belle Glade FL for their show, but I am a 1-hour drive from them, and nothing interests me to drive to buy!

There is also one on WWUS 104.1 FM (100 kW!) in the lower FL Keys, called the "Bizarre Bazaar" or BizBaz for short. It's been on quite some time. Odd for a classic hits/classic rock hybrid. I believe they are #1 rated there. It is on for 2 hours a day.....they stream at http://us1radio.com/

Gone are the "tradio" days in Miami proper. I believe WKAT 1360, once a talk station in its heyday. had it.

cd

 

[Bill Betten]

I actually meant on a non comm station,,,,

 

[cd637299]

I actually meant on a non comm station,,,,

Sorry....again I mis-read....need to see which forum. Dunno if I ever heard of a "tradio" on a non-comm....is that even allowed? In a way, somebody is "advertising."

cd

 

[Bill Betten]

I will call FCC staff Monday, it is someone selling a personal item. Will give update

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I have always assumed since the listener would not be paying the station, the show would be legal.

Then I began to wonder if an LPFM station.... as a service to the LISTENERS... allowed local businesses to submit mild commercial sounding messages... with the station having a rule that those merchants could not pay for the ad, and the station would NOT accept an underwriting contribution even once a year, would that pass muster with the FCC.

I read something posted by one of the NCE folks that I respect in which it was indicated that even unpaid announcements would trigger the FCC, even if unpaid.

Somewhere in there maybe a happy medium could be found. In small towns and villages where there is no local commercial radio, in my twisted little mind, it would actually be a "community service" to let people know what was going on on the town square, and it would be something locals might be attracted to tune in.

Heinz may make "57 Varieties" but there must be ONE_HUNDRED FIFTY-SEVEN different musical formats that can be programmed today. If you are going to pick one music and that is all you have going for you, how would you ever attract a broad audience when the entire population of the area you serve may be less than 6, 8 or 10 thousand people?

 

[Ai4i]

"It is better to have lived one day as a lion, then to have lived 100 years as a sheep"

Tell that to the lion at the end of the day ;D

 

[bturner]

The thing I was told by an engineer that works with lots of LPFMs is that the FCC goes both ways on this. In short they don't even know if a Swap Shop/Tradio show can be on a non-comm but they agree that if price and item is listed, it is certainly wrong. I got the impression is you might be safe by saying "I have a Maytag Washer/Dryer set in working condition for sale. For details the phone number is 555-4336." Adding anything like 'gotta sell this today' is out.

I suppose this is a subject the FCC would rather not be forced to make a call on. I think they'd prefer just leave things as they are.

 

[Shiny Knob]

It's only commercial if the station receives money or other 'consideration' for the broadcast. If the person calling isn't paying the station to air the announcement, it's noncommercial, even if the caller makes their living selling that kind of merchandise.

Pretty simple, really. If station gets no money (or free donuts or whatever) the announcement is not a commercial.

Yes, sometimes the FCC has been unclear on their own concept. But it IS the FCC after all.

 

[bturner]

Technically you are correct. If there is no 'consideration' given for an announcement of any kind, it is legal. With that said, we know FCC rules are written in a way that allows them to be 'interpreted'. You can pass on one level and not on another. I've found it is better not to push the envelope too much...it tends to make them think you might be trying to get away with something, making them want to look closer so they can find something. When you're close to that line, the human tendency is to think there must be something wrong somewhere, making the person set off on a quest to uncover that 'wrong'. If you're above the line on other things, you likely wil not be looked at with that much scrutiny.

I recall a problem one non-comm had with an underwriter. It seems the Underwriter was an attorney and the phrase 'XX years at the same location' raised red flags (xx was something like 25). The FCC said this was a ploy to give this attorney an unfair advantage by implying this attorney was more experienced and thus, better, because his office had been located at the same place for so many years. The phrase was purely legal to say in an underwriter's announcement but under scrutiny, the FCC figured the unfair advantage angle, fining the station. To cite another: it is legal to include a logo or identifying statement that helps identify a business. Walmart's logo is 'Low prices every day'. Technically it is legal to include this in the underwriters announcement but this is easily illegal as it is 'competative' giving an unfair advantage to the underwriter. We need to look at the whole picture.

I think the rules as written are unnecessary in many respects with all the specific verbage and such but we're stuck following these.

My advice is gingerly approach the Tradio idea on the air, treating it as an underwriting announcement and I doubt you'd have any issues. If you let a caller say "We're moving and the new place is too small for our Washer and Dryer, so I gotta move it today. It's a practially new Maytag, works great and if you can get it out of here today, I'll take $300 cash", then I think you might find the FCC frowning upon this. Sure, the caller might not have offered any 'consideration' but I think the FCC could come up with a way you benefit or breached the rules.

While considering this, there once was the question of a 'Commercial Club' (sort of a Chamber of Commerce) that wanted to offer free commercials for every business in town on their non-comm. The idea was in synch with their stated mission, 'to promote the business community and encourage local shopping habits'. The businesses were to offer no consideration whatsoever to the station or the club. The club has no membership fees. Yes, we're talking price and item advertising here. By the 'consideration' standpoint, this would be legal. By the mission statement of the non-profit to promote local businesses and the economic health of their community, this would seem legal. Is this not the same? Sure it is a for profit business that gains from the freebie, but isn't the individual on Tradio trying to gain financially and aren't many businesses owned and operated by an individual? Would the FCC claim the $300 price giving the man an unfair advantage over others that might the same model of Maytag washer for sale?

An option I would think might pass muster is more generalized promotion. For example, a non-profit with a non-comm ran a station with a Visitors Information format. This was a full power non-comm FM. They mentioned locations of every gas station, all restaurants and some details on menu items, including hours and spoke of shops that might be of interest to those motoring down the freeway through town. This was mingled with local attractions, etc. There was no consideration, technically, for any announcement and these announcements were presented as a 'matter of fact' versus being commercial in nature. For example, they might mention all the fast food places in one announcement. This was legal. Text might be "If you will be stopping for gas, our town has several options right along the interstate for easy access. At exit 312, motorists will find Shell gas with a 24 hour convenience store, a Mobil station with convenience store open 24/7 and Chevron gas and diesel at the Carters Truck Stop, open 24 hours with convenience store, restaurant and shower stalls. Coming from the south at exit 304...".

Another consideration, if the non-comm is a 501(c)3 is how the IRS would view this. They could very well be more troublesome than the FCC.

I don't have the definitive answer here, but I think logic and reasoning must be applied here. I am not an attorney and did not play one on TV, nor did I spend the night at a Holiday Inn. The information is worth just what you paid for it. I simply worked for a guy for many years that was a banker, CPA and knew how to befuddle the IRS. You might say he rubbbed off on me.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I don't have the definitive answer here, but I think logic and reasoning must be applied here. I am not an attorney and did not play one on TV, nor did I spend the night at a Holiday Inn. The information is worth just what you paid for it. I simply worked for a guy for many years that was a banker, CPA and knew how to befuddle the IRS. You might say he rubbed off on me.

I worked for some one years ago that also "rubbed off" on me. Jerrell Shepherd created quite a broadcasting success and showplace in Moberly, Mo. The one biggie early in his journey had to do with PSAs. Though there was no rule indicating that "x" number of PSAs or that any PSAs were mandatory, there was a place on the application for a new station, and a place on the application for license renewal back in the 1950s and 1960s: "How many Public Service Announcements per ____ will you run?" (I don't remember if it was per week, per month or per year.) Jerrell filed renewal after renewal in which he took great delight in putting a big, fat, juicy ZERO in that space. Most broadcasters gritted their teeth and put down some number they thought would keep the wolf away from the door, and just hated it!

Here was his logic which I'm sure he expressed informally to some FCC staff people, and which he would have delighted in explaining form formally had they ever decided to make an issue of it.

The law and the rules say that a station must operate in the public interest, must perform a public service. Opening up a mass mailing from the Cancer Society or the Red Cross and finding mimeographed, generic PSA scripts, and putting them in the copy book for the announcers to read does not constitute "a public service to the community". Many stations run such announcements for organizations that don't even have a local chapter active in the community served by the station. I go to the expense of maintaining a local news function. If an organization in my community is having an event to raise money or to create public awareness of their cause, let them sit down with my news director and share what they are doing, what events are scheduled, and we will give them enormous amounts of publicity in the form of news coverage. If there is a local chapter and it is dormant and doing nothing, it is not a public service to give free announcements to a dead movement.

I went to work for him as News Director. He lectured me six-ways-from-Sunday on this topic. If the FCC ever got around to challenging his position, he made it clear my performance in reaching out to the community had better not be an embarrassment to him as he explained his non-traditional answer to the question: How many PSAs per week will you run?

One of my dreams is to operate an LPFM with a similar "in your face" challenge to the status-quo. "Trading Post" and some way of informing a community that commercial services locally operated are a significant part of community must be on the agenda of a community radio station. But if you are "going to flip the bird" at the FCC, you better have the nest tidy and in order.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

// *****

Sorry. Duplicate post.

***** //

 

[bturner]

You are absolutely right about serving the community with radio. That's the way to do it. Great local radio gives the impression to the listener that if they tune away, they might miss something, so you listen because the station is all about where you live, work and play.

There has to be ways for Low Power FM to promote local businesses, shopping at home versus out of town and super serving the listeners. It think it simply means being clever while staying within the lines (aka FCC rules).

I'm hoping to apply with my organization and I'm already trying to push some tricks up my sleeve.

 

[FredLeonard]

The problem with community radio - both LPFM non-commercial stations and small town and suburban commercial stations - is the community doesn't listen. The community seems to prefer the slicker sound of radio from the nearest big city. Over the past few years, I've watched the so-called commercial "Tradio stations" end up being completely automated and satellite delivered, often with religious or foreign language programming or wall to wall infomercials. The non-commercial LPFMs seem to be hobby stations for the enjoyment of those who want to come down and play radio.

The Swap Shop shows for listeners would seem to be OK under non-comm regs. You don't hear calls to action or comparisons. Just, I've got a ____, call me. Hosts can easily keep a listeners-caller from crossing the line if ever need be.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The problem with community radio - both LPFM non-commercial stations and small town and suburban commercial stations - is the community doesn't listen. The community seems to prefer the slicker sound of radio from the nearest big city.

Well, that's what some merchants used to tell me several decades ago when I was out pounding the streets and sidewalks looking for advertising dollars in small town radio.

The merchants had their perception. We at the radio station had our perception. The ad agency people over in the city had their perception. I always thought it would be real neat to actually have the truth, the reality.... then..... and now.

About time I think I have found the radio station that has no listeners, zero - nada - zilch listeners, some inconvenient little demonstration comes along proving they do have some listeners, a few listeners.

As I listen to some of these backwater stations today, and daydream as I drive along that maybe I should be there... making one of them work, I am reminded of the days when I worked standing at the feet of one of the master of small town radio... Jerrell Shepherd. He knew what to put on the air (in his day) that would garner a significant group of listeners, and he knew what to put in the programming and in the advertising copy that would cause those listeners to be witnesses to the community that they were radio listeners. It was always great to be over at the IGA Foodliner picking up new copy when some garden-variety-citizen would walk in, go up to the nearest employee and ask: "Where will I find the Three-for-a-dollar grapefruit you advertised on the radio?" He may have been the only person listening to the station that day, but to that IGA owner, that guy was the entire world listening.

I can't remember the last time I heard something on local radio out here in the boonies that I could have walked into a store and asked a question like the grapefruit question. Thus, we are convinced we have evidence no one is listening to radio... and Tradio.

 

[FredLeonard]

I worked at some of those stations, too. I don't think nobody was listening. But I don't think very many were. The boss didn't buy the country Arbitron numbers so it's only guess work. How many listeners does one of these stations need to make it worthwhile to buy time to promote a sale on grapefruit?

There's a lot I miss about those community stations, the ones where I worked and the ones I used to hear. The hyper-local news from council meetings to lost dogs. Yes, the swap shops. All the high school games. The same crazy callers who seemed always to be listening. The remotes (even though I never worked anyplace where the Lone Ranger showed up for a remote). I still have to wonder if we did all that stuff because it's what the audience wanted or because it's what we wanted to do.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I still have to wonder if we did all that stuff because it's what the audience wanted or because it's what we wanted to do.

That was true then, and to some extent, it is true today.

Do small town city council members pass new legislation because it is what the citizenry wantes... or because it's what they want to do.

Did Detroit during those years make cars that WE wanted, or did they make cars that were what THEY wanted to author?

How many marriages are floundering because one or both parties to the union are having trouble understanding when they do things the other person wants, and when they do things because its what they want to do but are convinced other person wanted that. (We could start a whole NEW web site and forum on THAT alone!)

What's wanted and what's needed has changed, and you have to look to find them, but there are still some "small station/small city" broadcasters who are wise and philosophical who seem to understand this tension that exist between what the station wants and what the listeners want and what the community wants needs.