Translator/IBOC question

[WNTIRadio]

A translator for an AM can transmit in HD. It can "originate" programming on the HD-2/HD-3 as long as the HD-1 matches what's on the AM.

Can a second translator rebroadcast the HD-2 or HD-3 on the analog FM that originates on the "primary" translator?

Just want to get some opinions and see if anyone else has done it before another call (and exorbitant fee) to the client's attorneys.

 

[Kmagrill]

A translator for an AM can transmit in HD. It can "originate" programming on the HD-2/HD-3 as long as the HD-1 matches what's on the AM.

Are you sure about originating HD? As far as I know a translator cannot originate anything, HD or otherwise, except for the 30 seconds of commercials per hour and emergency messages.

Can a second translator rebroadcast the HD-2 or HD-3 on the analog FM that originates on the "primary" translator?

Not exactly sure what you were asking, but a translator may receive an HD1, HD2, HD3 or HD4 channel and convert it to analog. Presumably, a tranlator can also accept an analog input or any of the HD channels and convert them to any other HD or analog channel. However, if cross converting to HD, the customary fees must be paid to Ibiquiti. If the HD signal remains in the RF spectrum, no license is required.

 

[WNTIRadio]

Yepp. I'm sure about originating HD. There's a translator in Mass for an AM that is doing it right now. HD-1 is the primary AM, HD-2 is a different AM station.

I'm talking about going from an HD-2 source that the translator is originating, to analog on translator #2. The same as taking an HD-2 from a full power station to an analog translator for fill in service... except that the HD-2 is only coming from a translator.

Yeah. The FCC didn't consider this wrinkle did they.

 

[nd2023]

There's no point for a translator to broadcast a locally originated HD2 format, since no one will be able to hear it at the flea power of a translator. Unless that HD2 can feed another translator that will translate it in analog.

FM translators of daytime AM stations can originate programming at night since the AM station cannot be on the air at night. Based on that rule, since the AM stations cannot have HD2s, I could figure that FM translators can originate programming on the HD2. Translators can translate another translator, and they can also translate an HD2 in analog. Putting all those together, a second analog translator could be able to translate the HD2 of an AM translator, and therefore put another station on the air.

This makes for a good logic problem.

 

[xmusicmatt]

Yepp. I'm sure about originating HD. There's a translator in Mass for an AM that is doing it right now. HD-1 is the primary AM, HD-2 is a different AM station.

I'm talking about going from an HD-2 source that the translator is originating, to analog on translator #2. The same as taking an HD-2 from a full power station to an analog translator for fill in service... except that the HD-2 is only coming from a translator.

Yeah. The FCC didn't consider this wrinkle did they.

My guess is you would want to contact your FCC Attorney for advise.. however translators rebroadcast Full Power HD-2's from Full Power stations (and AM stations)... I don't see why you could not use a HD-2 on a IBOC FM Translator to feed another analog translator (since you can feed analog translators via other analog translators)... Only catch is the analog translator would have to pick up the HD-2 off air (just like translators who relay HD2's now do).

Best to run it by your FCC lawyer though... however I don't see why not.

 

[semoochie]

"...no one will be able to hear it at the flea power of a translator." Have you heard some of the modern day translators? They stick a 250 watt translator at about 2000 feet and you get basically a Class A signal! It isn't like a full C but sure isn't flea-powered either!

 

[Kmagrill]

Yepp. I'm sure about originating HD. There's a translator in Mass for an AM that is doing it right now. HD-1 is the primary AM, HD-2 is a different AM station.

I'm talking about going from an HD-2 source that the translator is originating, to analog on translator #2. The same as taking an HD-2 from a full power station to an analog translator for fill in service... except that the HD-2 is only coming from a translator.

Yeah. The FCC didn't consider this wrinkle did they.

This is a pretty interesting case. Can we stop for a moment and clarify the term "Originating"? If your case is of an AM Fill-in on analog and another AM Fill-In on HD-2, then the translator's not actually originating. It's translating the second AM to digital FM, which is perfectly legal, but rare. It also involves licensing from Ibiquiti. This also opens up some potential pitfalls. As a fill-in, the translator can operate with extended coverage provided that the translator's 60dBu contour does not exceed 40km or either of the AM station's 2mV contours in any direction. I've seen some translators with coverages that exceed Class A stations. We have a 250Watter around here with a 300 meter HAAT antenna and it has pretty impressive coverage in flat Florida. The translator's coverage cannot exceed the smaller of the two AM 2mV contours.

To answer your question, it's legal to pick up an HD-2 signal from a translator and rebroadcast it in analog on another, but there is a caveat. If the HD2 signal belongs to an AM, then the second translator must also be a fill-in for that same AM station and is bound by the same 40km/2mV limitation as the first translator. In other words, you cannot extend the coverage of an AM station by daisy-chaining translators (although this is permitted if the primary station is an FM). So, since the second translator has to be a fill-in, why not just feed it via STL or audio stream instead of via an HD2? If the originating station is FM, then translators can be used to extend the coverage of the primary station provided that they are not co-owned by the primary and receive no direct financial support of the primary and non-fill-ins must receive their input from an off-the-air source such as analog or HD signal. In some, very rare cases where the target translator cannot directly hear the primary station, receiving an HD2 from another intermediate translator would be one solution, but I would think such cases to be quite unusual.

 

[WNTIRadio]

This case is another AM on the translator's HD-2, however it does not fall entirely within the 2mv/m contour of the station that's on the HD2.

This example translator is in Andover, Mass. W275BH. That one isn't my client, but my example to see if anyone else has done this. My client is a non-comm with a translator in the commercial band, so it can't be fed via STL like the translators in the reserved band. It's a long haul for the pickup of the primary station, but if the HD can be done on an intermediary translator (yes, I understand the Ibquity fees, but as a noncomm it should be cheaper) and then rebroadcast the HD2 or 3 on the second translator, that would clean up the signal. There's no point in putting the HD on the primary station because it wouldn't make it to the translator anyway.

I've daisy chained translators before, in an all analog world. This one in Andover got me thinking...

 

[nd2023]

Do the AM stations being translated have to be broadcasting in HD if the FM translator is in HD, or can the AM stations not have HD while the FM is in HD?
I've heard an analog translator of a full power HD2 originate programming when the full power station's HD transmitter was off temporarily, hence no HD2 on the air.

 

[Kmagrill]

This case is another AM on the translator's HD-2, however it does not fall entirely within the 2mv/m contour of the station that's on the HD2.

This example translator is in Andover, Mass. W275BH. That one isn't my client, but my example to see if anyone else has done this. My client is a non-comm with a translator in the commercial band, so it can't be fed via STL like the translators in the reserved band. It's a long haul for the pickup of the primary station, but if the HD can be done on an intermediary translator (yes, I understand the Ibquity fees, but as a noncomm it should be cheaper) and then rebroadcast the HD2 or 3 on the second translator, that would clean up the signal. There's no point in putting the HD on the primary station because it wouldn't make it to the translator anyway.

I've daisy chained translators before, in an all analog world. This one in Andover got me thinking...

Yes, as a method for increasing the capacity of a translator to carry additional public program channels to be used in a daisy chain this is certainly a legal and viable option, though potentially expensive given the equipment and licensing costs. Also, if the translator's main program is commercial, then I think Ibiquiti will require a commercial license even if one of the HD channels is a non-com since the HD1 channel has to equal the analog. Better check with Ibiquiti on that.

 

[Kmagrill]

Do the AM stations being translated have to be broadcasting in HD if the FM translator is in HD, or can the AM stations not have HD while the FM is in HD?
I've heard an analog translator of a full power HD2 originate programming when the full power station's HD transmitter was off temporarily, hence no HD2 on the air.

No, translators can convert to analog or HD regardless of what the primary station transmits. They can also convert from HD to analog. There's actually more of a grey area about stereo, but I've been told that a mono AM can have a stereo translator, too.

As for originating while the main is off the air: If the translator is a fill-in (its 60dbu does not extend beyond the 60dbu of the parent) then this is legal provided that it does not continue for more than 24 hours. If the translator's a non-fill-in, then it's illegal. That translator should go off the air anytime the primary's off.