Tremendous Salt Water Propagation for AM

[BRNout]

I could not pull in any Cuban FM's from Marathon. I could pull in decent reception from the Miami area (I listened primarily to WSHE back then) and the Keys stations did well. The 40 miles between Marathon and Key West might have made a difference, but if I recall most of the Cuban FM's are very low powered.

dlf

I guess the Cuban government doesn't worry about FM penetration from Florida.

My guess is that you could pick up weak reception of certain Key West FMs on the nearest portions of the north coast of Cuba. However, Class C stations licensed to Key West, such as WWUS, WMFM, and WCNK have their transmitters located on Big Pine Key - which is a few miles farther from Cuba (Key West is as close as you can get). So, even those 100 kw blowtorches would have a range that's limited to those areas nearest to the north coast, on favorable (north-facing) elevated terrain. And, they'd still be on the weak side. Probably a limited enough "threat" that Castro hasn't worried about them.

I would bet anything that you could pick up some FM from Cuba if you're in a decent reception location on Key West - with a selective radio. At the minimum, the humid weather would (at times) provide enough tropospheric enhancement to make it an occasional thing. The Cuban AMs must boom in to that area.

The 870 that was referred to is Radio Reloj from Sancti Spíritus, Cuba. They claim to only broadcast with 1 kw, but there's no way that's accurate. Surely they are at least 10 kw. The 870 frequency of RR is often heard well into the US at night, under WWL. Their website identifies only the AM frequencies, but I heard them on FM (in mono) when flying over Cuba one day (I think it was at 100.7 - but I could be mistaken).

 

[gar hi]

The last time I was ever down in South Florida was for spring of 1986 on a little vacation to the Miami area and the Keys. We stopped for the night at some little family owned motel about half way down the keys and they had no cable, only the rabbit ears on the TV in the room. It was a bonanza on the VHF channels, a struggle between the Cuban and Miami stations. I even got channel 13 from Tampa. Of course, it had to be a tropo at the time.

 

[radioman148]

I could not pull in any Cuban FM's from Marathon. I could pull in decent reception from the Miami area (I listened primarily to WSHE back then) and the Keys stations did well. The 40 miles between Marathon and Key West might have made a difference, but if I recall most of the Cuban FM's are very low powered.

dlf

I guess the Cuban government doesn't worry about FM penetration from Florida.

870 from Cuba can often be heard under WWL in the midwest.

My guess is that you could pick up weak reception of certain Key West FMs on the nearest portions of the north coast of Cuba. However, Class C stations licensed to Key West, such as WWUS, WMFM, and WCNK have their transmitters located on Big Pine Key - which is a few miles farther from Cuba (Key West is as close as you can get). So, even those 100 kw blowtorches would have a range that's limited to those areas nearest to the north coast, on favorable (north-facing) elevated terrain. And, they'd still be on the weak side. Probably a limited enough "threat" that Castro hasn't worried about them.

I would bet anything that you could pick up some FM from Cuba if you're in a decent reception location on Key West - with a selective radio. At the minimum, the humid weather would (at times) provide enough tropospheric enhancement to make it an occasional thing. The Cuban AMs must boom in to that area.

The 870 that was referred to is Radio Reloj from Sancti Spíritus, Cuba. They claim to only broadcast with 1 kw, but there's no way that's accurate. Surely they are at least 10 kw. The 870 frequency of RR is often heard well into the US at night, under WWL. Their website identifies only the AM frequencies, but I heard them on FM (in mono) when flying over Cuba one day (I think it was at 100.7 - but I could be mistaken).

 

[nd2023]

If they wanted to, the US government could put a 100kw FM on a 2000 foot stick in Key West.

 

[schmave]

If they wanted to, the US government could put a 100kw FM on a 2000 foot stick in Key West.

They already have a 100K AM on a stick in Marathon targeting our southern friends.

 

[radioman148]

If they wanted to, the US government could put a 100kw FM on a 2000 foot stick in Key West.

They already have a 100K AM on a stick in Marathon targeting our southern friends.

and I'm sure the Cubans jam it.

 

[stormy01]

If they wanted to, the US government could put a 100kw FM on a 2000 foot stick in Key West.

They already have a 100K AM on a stick in Marathon targeting our southern friends.

and I'm sure the Cubans jam it.

There is something on 1180 in Cuba, my understanding is the Cubans don't put noise over 1180, just regular domestic programming which drowns it out.

FM would be totally stupid wasteful to do since there is the "Capture Effect" see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_effect

At say, 80 miles away, the signal strength of a 100kW FM would be only a few microvolts... the Cubans would only need to have a few kW in each of their
major cities on the same frequency to blot it out. Perhaps if it was highly directional like when that company in Europe was supposedly was beaming in
8 MW (that's right 8000kW) from a mountaintop 80 kilometers (50 miles away) from I believe it was France into Switzerland (or something like that) - Back in the days when the Swiss government didn't permit commercial broadcasting...

Radio Marti needs to shut down...somewhere I read that their audience is so small it doesn't matter...I am sure many of the Cuban people would love to see an end to the Castro regime - what a waste of resources...hundreds of kW on MW and SW....I hear the jamming on 6030kHz much better than Radio Marti and I'm closer to Greenville, NC than to Cuba...

 

[drt]

If they wanted to, the US government could put a 100kw FM on a 2000 foot stick in Key West.

They already have a 100K AM on a stick in Marathon targeting our southern friends.

and I'm sure the Cubans jam it.

There is something on 1180 in Cuba, my understanding is the Cubans don't put noise over 1180, just regular domestic programming which drowns it out.

FM would be totally stupid wasteful to do since there is the "Capture Effect" see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_effect

At say, 80 miles away, the signal strength of a 100kW FM would be only a few microvolts... the Cubans would only need to have a few kW in each of their
major cities on the same frequency to blot it out. Perhaps if it was highly directional like when that company in Europe was supposedly was beaming in
8 MW (that's right 8000kW) from a mountaintop 80 kilometers (50 miles away) from I believe it was France into Switzerland (or something like that) - Back in the days when the Swiss government didn't permit commercial broadcasting...

Radio Marti needs to shut down...somewhere I read that their audience is so small it doesn't matter...I am sure many of the Cuban people would love to see an end to the Castro regime - what a waste of resources...hundreds of kW on MW and SW....I hear the jamming on 6030kHz much better than Radio Marti and I'm closer to Greenville, NC than to Cuba...

Yes, the Cubans jam Radio Marti with actual programming and not IBOC or other jamming devices. For a while the Cuban 1180 was Radio Tourista, if I recall; a multi-lingual service telling visitors to Cuba, where and what to visit. Not sure what their current programming is, but my car radio when in scan mode, stops at 530, 590, 640 and 1180 both day and night. (all Cuban stations, of course I receive many more Cuban signals during the day, but they're not strong enough to scan as a local) I'm about 300 miles due north of Havana.

As far as the Castro regime trying to jam any FM frequencies, it would be a total waste (as stated in this thread by others) and besides I'm not aware of any FM stations that they (Cuba) would want to jam; none are political in nature as being anti-Castro, as is WAQI, 710, which is a major thorn in Cuba's side.

drt
Latitude 27.75 North

 

[schmave]

So I'm guessing the Cuban 1180 is heard throughout the Keys rather than Marti?

 

[radioman148]

If they wanted to, the US government could put a 100kw FM on a 2000 foot stick in Key West.

They already have a 100K AM on a stick in Marathon targeting our southern friends.

and I'm sure the Cubans jam it.

There is something on 1180 in Cuba, my understanding is the Cubans don't put noise over 1180, just regular domestic programming which drowns it out.

FM would be totally stupid wasteful to do since there is the "Capture Effect" see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_effect

At say, 80 miles away, the signal strength of a 100kW FM would be only a few microvolts... the Cubans would only need to have a few kW in each of their
major cities on the same frequency to blot it out. Perhaps if it was highly directional like when that company in Europe was supposedly was beaming in
8 MW (that's right 8000kW) from a mountaintop 80 kilometers (50 miles away) from I believe it was France into Switzerland (or something like that) - Back in the days when the Swiss government didn't permit commercial broadcasting...

Radio Marti needs to shut down...somewhere I read that their audience is so small it doesn't matter...I am sure many of the Cuban people would love to see an end to the Castro regime - what a waste of resources...hundreds of kW on MW and SW....I hear the jamming on 6030kHz much better than Radio Marti and I'm closer to Greenville, NC than to Cuba...

Cuba used to jam 1180 with noise before they started programming it.

 

[vibe]

I'm going to provide a comparison of sorts between Key West and the N coast of Cuba which is approx 80-90 air miles. That comparison is the path between Yarmouth Nova Scotia and the FM's located in the Portland and bangor areas. In Bangor's case the FM's are at least 30 mi inland.
It is at least 100 mi by air to a lot of those Maine transmitters from Yarmouth, NS yet there was a listenable, stereo signal on a lot of those stations. I even had WHOM in (listenable, weak but no fades) from at least 200 mi. What was funny was the signal was consistent even while the truck was moving. So there may be a minor boost on FM with respect to a saltwater path as well.
From Clinton CT, I also have picked up a number of Long island UHF's on my now nearly obsolete HH TV from about 50 mi compared to considerably weaker signals from the inland CT stations from 30-40 mi away.
FWIW-the mainland AM's really boom into Yarmouth and not necessarily the big sticks. And the AM radio on that truck was fair at best.

 

[BRNout]

Salt water doesn't enhance FM signals, per se. However, it can provide the atmospheric conditions that enhance tropo effects, given the right conditions. On an everyday basis (without tropospheric enhancement), salt water provides a flat, uninterrupted surface without any terrain to block a signal. So, it's pure line of sight that's involved - that tends to allow for 60-70 miles of FM reception in most cases. However, in the case of ME and NS, you have higher terrain on each side of the Gulf of Maine which favors the line of sight from one to the other. That adds to the range. Florida doesn't have that (though Cuba does have a little of it).

The CT shoreline and Long Island are both hilly areas that face each other across a 20 mile wide or so body of water. Perfect for all signals to fire across. On the other hand, CT stations with transmitters located inland have to get through the hilly terrain in Middlesex County to get to the shoreline areas where you were. Terrain advantage goes to stations on Long Island. Connecticut TV and FM stations can absolutely boom into eastern Long Island - something you would never guess from watching/listening to them (but that's a different subject).

Your example of WHOM is an anomaly because that station is a 'superstation' based on it's power and height above average terrain. The Florida stations based at Big Pine Key tend to have more juice than most northeastern stations south of Bangor, but they're fairly low lying. Yeah, it would be sweet if they transmitted from 3,000 feet above average terrain but that's far from the case. So, I'd think that you would need to be in a favorable location on the north coast of Cuba - preferably on higher terrain overlooking the sea - to get decent reception of the Florida FMs on a regular basis.

Anyhow, it's all about line of sight when you're talking about the FM, VHF and UHF bands. There's no groundwave as there is in the LW and MW bands, so the wonderful conductivity of salt water doesn't apply.

 

[gar hi]

OK, there's a good chance I'll be able to go over to the Gulf tomorrow afternoon to do some daytime AM Dxing right at the beach. The last time I went, as I mentioned, was in January. Not only was I pressed for time but it was too cold and windy to stay out tooo long. I should have a lot more time now and not be rushed. Whether I definitely go depends on whether or not I can borrow my friend's digital camera that also takes short videos around a minute or so each. If I can get some good catches, I'd like to put them on video so I can post them here. As of now, she said it's OK but there's still a chance she may not be home for me to be able to pick it up. Also, what would be the latest I could try listening for stations and also be certain I'm not getting any early skywave activity?
I plan to be there in the mid or maybe late afternoon so that shouldn't be a concern.

The Texas stations I already know to try for are 740, 1030, and 1530 but does anyone know of others I might have a shot at, even if it's also Louisiana?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[radioman148]

If you try after noon & before 5PM you should have no skywave issues.
Someone mentioned AM 560 out of Beaumont carries well too.
Let us know what you hear.

 

[jd]

Someone mentioned AM 560 out of Beaumont carries well too.

Yes, KLVI does pretty well. But you may also want to try KEYH 850 Houston, 10,000 watts with great salt water propagation toward Florida.

 

[gar hi]

Thanks for the suggestions, I wrote then down on the list. The only thing that could be a problem is that we have locals here on 570 and 860. At least they don't have IBOC noise. WGUL 860 wasn't much of a problem with WWL over at the Gulf but it is here. Here in Tampa, WTBN 570 really spills over into 560 but that could be different at the beach.

From looking at the AM radio log and Radio Locator, I also found one that may be possible and that's 790 KBME from Houston.

And being that it's a wide open frequency, I might as well try for good old KVNS too. Wouldn't that be cool!

 

[schmave]

Thanks for the suggestions, I wrote then down on the list. The only thing that could be a problem is that we have locals here on 570 and 860. At least they don't have IBOC noise. WGUL 860 wasn't much of a problem with WWL over at the Gulf but it is here. Here in Tampa, WTBN 570 really spills over into 560 but that could be different at the beach.

From looking at the AM radio log and Radio Locator, I also found one that may be possible and that's 790 KBME from Houston.

And being that it's a wide open frequency, I might as well try for good old KVNS too. Wouldn't that be cool!

I'm curious to see if you get 790. 790 and 610 do not send the strongest portion of their signals to the east of Houston, or at least not as much juice as they pump straight over the city and toward the gulf.
Frankly I'm interested in reading about whatever you pick up from anywhere. I have a few days off next week and might take one as a golden chance to run down to the Gulf near Galveston and do some searching of my own. Bruce, any particularly good locations for that?

 

[drt]

Thanks for the suggestions, I wrote then down on the list. The only thing that could be a problem is that we have locals here on 570 and 860. At least they don't have IBOC noise. WGUL 860 wasn't much of a problem with WWL over at the Gulf but it is here. Here in Tampa, WTBN 570 really spills over into 560 but that could be different at the beach.

From looking at the AM radio log and Radio Locator, I also found one that may be possible and that's 790 KBME from Houston.

And being that it's a wide open frequency, I might as well try for good old KVNS too. Wouldn't that be cool!

Hope you're dx'ing experience at the Gulf is better than the two times I've tried it.

The last time I tried it was early January between 2 and 3 pm (local sunset being around 5:52 then) and the only two stations I got from out of state (other than Cuba, of course) were WWL 870 and 1060 out of New Orleans.

As far as 560 goes; at Indian Shores(just south of Clearwater) there was too much splatter from 570 WTBN (570's towers are in Land o Lakes; even though they are licensed to Pinellas Park, FL - where WFSO 570 had their towers back in the late 60's and 1970's).

Further south at St. Pete
Beach and at the USCG Blackthorne Memorial Site, I was receiving WQAM, Miami on 560.

I did receive one station out of Pensacola, I believe it was at 1620, also received 1200 out of Pine Island/North Ft. Myers and of course all the Sarasota/Bradenton AM's and 1660 out of Naples.

790 was a mix of WLBE Leesburg, Radio Reloj and another station underneath that I could not identify but suspect that is was WAXY 790 out of Miami.

All in all, at least for me, it was a disappointment; much different than my dx'ing experiences at the beach across the state in Stuart (Hutchinson Island, just inside the Martin county line) where I was getting plenty of stations from South Carolina, Georgia and the Bahamas; did not get any stations from NYC though.(this was mid-day in June last year).

drt

 

[radioman148]

Thanks for the suggestions, I wrote then down on the list. The only thing that could be a problem is that we have locals here on 570 and 860. At least they don't have IBOC noise. WGUL 860 wasn't much of a problem with WWL over at the Gulf but it is here. Here in Tampa, WTBN 570 really spills over into 560 but that could be different at the beach.

From looking at the AM radio log and Radio Locator, I also found one that may be possible and that's 790 KBME from Houston.

And being that it's a wide open frequency, I might as well try for good old KVNS too. Wouldn't that be cool!

Hope you're dx'ing experience at the Gulf is better than the two times I've tried it.

The last time I tried it was early January between 2 and 3 pm (local sunset being around 5:52 then) and the only two stations I got from out of state (other than Cuba, of course) were WWL 870 and 1060 out of New Orleans.

As far as 560 goes; at Indian Shores(just south of Clearwater) there was too much splatter from 570 WTBN (570's towers are in Land o Lakes; even though they are licensed to Pinellas Park, FL - where WFSO 570 had their towers back in the late 60's and 1970's).

Further south at St. Pete
Beach and at the USCG Blackthorne Memorial Site, I was receiving WQAM, Miami on 560.

I did receive one station out of Pensacola, I believe it was at 1620, also received 1200 out of Pine Island/North Ft. Myers and of course all the Sarasota/Bradenton AM's and 1660 out of Naples.

790 was a mix of WLBE Leesburg, Radio Reloj and another station underneath that I could not identify but suspect that is was WAXY 790 out of Miami.

All in all, at least for me, it was a disappointment; much different than my dx'ing experiences at the beach across the state in Stuart (Hutchinson Island, just inside the Martin county line) where I was getting plenty of stations from South Carolina, Georgia and the Bahamas; did not get any stations from NYC though.(this was mid-day in June last year).

drt

I'm a little surprised you received 1060 from New Orleans since the null towards Fla. I guess that salt water really helps.

 

[radioman148]

Thanks for the suggestions, I wrote then down on the list. The only thing that could be a problem is that we have locals here on 570 and 860. At least they don't have IBOC noise. WGUL 860 wasn't much of a problem with WWL over at the Gulf but it is here. Here in Tampa, WTBN 570 really spills over into 560 but that could be different at the beach.

From looking at the AM radio log and Radio Locator, I also found one that may be possible and that's 790 KBME from Houston.

And being that it's a wide open frequency, I might as well try for good old KVNS too. Wouldn't that be cool!

I'll be curious to hear what you get from Texas.