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TV Station Channel Brands After DTV Conversion?

This may have been discussed before and, if so, I apologize but couldn't find a reference using search.

Since VHF/UHF stations came online they have used their channel designation as a brand (in addition to their call). With the DTV conversion most stations will change frequencies.

Will they continue using their old channel brand i.e., 5, 7, 9 etc., or will they begin using their new channel designation i.e., 36, 43, 67?
 
landtuna said:
This may have been discussed before and, if so, I apologize but couldn't find a reference using search.

Since VHF/UHF stations came online they have used their channel designation as a brand (in addition to their call). With the DTV conversion most stations will change frequencies.

Will they continue using their old channel brand i.e., 5, 7, 9 etc., or will they begin using their new channel designation i.e., 36, 43, 67?

99% of TV stations will continue to use their old brands, as viewers will tune to the old channel numbers. There will be a few exceptions.
 
jal41 said:
99% of TV stations will continue to use their old brands, as viewers will tune to the old channel numbers. There will be a few exceptions.
What type of exceptions? Will TV stations be required to ID with their call letters and old analog channel numbers after the transition or can they just use the call letters?
 
poledo said:
jal41 said:
99% of TV stations will continue to use their old brands, as viewers will tune to the old channel numbers. There will be a few exceptions.
What type of exceptions? Will TV stations be required to ID with their call letters and old analog channel numbers after the transition or can they just use the call letters?

A legal ID is the call letters followed by the city-of-license. I think inserting the analog channel number is OK, but I'm not sure whether the PSIP number or the actual RF channel (if different) is allowed.
 
Stations don't have to ID with channel numbers now. Call sign + City of license is acceptable.

The FCC has adopted the PSIP standard in full, and the PSIP standard clearly states that stations are to continue using their analog channel number until their license is canceled. It is to follow the station wherever it moves physically.

There are stations which are ignoring this. I've heard some good rationalizations (KCVU-DT 20 in Chico, for example, is mapping to 20-1 instead of 30-1 because they want to put their Telemundo LP on analog 30 and are avoiding confusion), and some bad ones (WNBW-DT 9 in Gainesville is mapping to 9-1 because... well, I don't know why, it conflicts with WFTV-DT in Orlando).

- Trip
 
tripinva said:
WNBW-DT 9 in Gainesville is mapping to 9-1 because... well, I don't know why, it conflicts with WFTV-DT in Orlando.

WNBW ch.9 is actually on 9, and had never had an analog counterpart (though it was licensed an analog frequency on ch.29, which, obviously, will not be used). WFTV's digital signal used 9 as its PSIP, and will continue to do so, as it will not move its digital to ch.9, due to WNBW.
 
Yes, but according to the PSIP spec WNBW should map to either 29-1 (if they want to use their "major" channel number) or 39-1 (if they want to claim they overlap with WFTV). Either way, they're not mapping properly. Hopefully the FCC fines them into mapping properly, as I've met people who receive both and have trouble because of the mapping.

- Trip
 
Everyone here in Dayton is branding as always. 2 is digital 50 but on air it remains 2. Side note: Time Warner moved 2 to 9 because of interference from the air signal. No reason for them not to move it back after 2/17
 
Has any station tried setting their psip to channel 1 or channel 37? I'd bet that some stations would actually pay the FCC for the right to map to channel 1.
 
poledo said:
Has any station tried setting their psip to channel 1 or channel 37? I'd bet that some stations would actually pay the FCC for the right to map to channel 1.

IIRC, Weigel Broadcasting's stations in Chicago (WCIU) and Milwaukee (WDJT) tried that a few years ago and incurred the wrath of the FCC. I don't think the Feds allow stations to ID as Channel 1 or 37 since neither is a legitimate OTA television channel.
 
KeithE4 said:
poledo said:
Has any station tried setting their psip to channel 1 or channel 37? I'd bet that some stations would actually pay the FCC for the right to map to channel 1.

IIRC, Weigel Broadcasting's stations in Chicago (WCIU) and Milwaukee (WDJT) tried that a few years ago and incurred the wrath of the FCC. I don't think the Feds allow stations to ID as Channel 1 or 37 since neither is a legitimate OTA television channel.

It could[/b] be a source of revenue to the government... in each market, the FCC could auction off the right to use 1 as your primary virtual channel...

The problem with allowing stations to pick their own primary virtual channel is really pretty much the same as allowing them to pick their own physical RF frequency. What happens if both WCIU and WGN decide they're going to be primary virtual channel 37? (different receivers behave differently. One of mine, I wouldn't be able to get WGN at all - their "slot" would be overwritten by WCIU during the channel scan. On the other set, I'd have two 37-1's - wouldn't be able to direct-punch WCIU, I'd have to select WGN and then hit channel-up.)

As Trip says, there are specific procedures in the ATSC standard defining which primary virtual channel a station must use. This standard is incorporated by reference in the FCC regulations - it carries the force of law. I think the FCC quite simply doesn't want to get into the business of refereeing conflicts.

There is a procedure in the standard for assigning alternative primary virtual channels. They must be registered with an authority. (I forget which authority! - not the FCC.) To my knowledge Tribune and the now-defunct USDTV were the only organizations to register alternative channels. Only numbers above 69 are available.
 
I hope WCTX-DT (MY) of New Haven wises up come February! Presently they're analog channel 59 and digital channel 39. However, due to cable, they identify as "MY-TV 9". Somebody needs to tell them that New York City is an hour and change south down I-95, home to the real "MY-9". I myself will only call them channel 59. Sorry for nitpicking people, I'm just technical when it comes to this stuff. :)
 
Wow! I never thought such a simple question would take so many directions.

Personally, I think stations should be required to use their real broadcast channel for identification. Yes, the initial confusion might be huge but would not last long. Something akin to changing a telephone number.

Viewers have been accustomed to using both VHF and UHF channel numbers for 60+ years now and, in the long run, it will cause less confusion than retaining a bogus (vacated) channel number. (I can see some budding TV-o-phile some years from now asking "why does channel 39-DT still brand as channel 5?)

Of course, it would cause stations to develop new bugs and hopefully, given current economic conditions, they might just opt to drop the damned things. That alone might make the DTV conversion worthwhile.
 
I think our 2 and 7 would rather fight than rebrand. After decades, Newscenter 7 does not want to be "Newscenter 41", and "Turn to 50" just would not be the same as "Turn to 2".
 
landtuna said:
Wow! I never thought such a simple question would take so many directions.

Personally, I think stations should be required to use their real broadcast channel for identification. Yes, the initial confusion might be huge but would not last long. Something akin to changing a telephone number.

No, no, and no. Here's why.

First, as you note, "the initial confusion might be huge." In a DTV conversion process that's already confusing to viewers, the goal all along has been to avoid adding any needless additional confusion to the process.

There is tremendous value to being able to explain to viewers, "We'll still be on channel 21 once you set up your converter box, and CBS will still be on 8, and NBC will still be on 10," and so on. There's even greater value in not having to explain, "Well, if you set your box up now, NBC will be on 58 - but then it will go back to 10 on February 18th, but CBS will stay on 45."

There is, furthermore, even greater value to stations - who have already, after all, incurred massive expenses in building and maintaining what amount to a completely separate second broadcast plant during these last few years of dual analog/digital operation - in being able to maintain their familiar brand names through the transition. Even more so, there's value to the stations in keeping everyone's brand consistent. In my market, two of the four commercial stations get to return to their heritage VHF channels of long standing (10 and 13), while the other two end up on unfamiliar dial positions (8 on 45, 31 on 28). That's largely luck of the draw during the FCC reallocation process, and why should some stations benefit while others get hurt?

Viewers have been accustomed to using both VHF and UHF channel numbers for 60+ years now and, in the long run, it will cause less confusion than retaining a bogus (vacated) channel number. (I can see some budding TV-o-phile some years from now asking "why does channel 39-DT still brand as channel 5?)

Viewers have been accustomed to channel-number branding for 60+ years now, and the US is decidedly unusual in continuing to link our TV stations to physical RF transmission frequencies. As I've noted in other posts on this topic, if you go to the UK, for instance, and turn on an older analog TV set, it will have buttons for "channels" 1-4. Those are presets that are configured when you buy the set, and they point to local UHF transmitters that could be on any channel in the UK bandplan. In London, your "channel 1" (BBC1) button might point to RF channel 21; in Manchester, it might actually be RF channel 32. But it doesn't matter, except to the engineers. Or you could go to Mexico, where the national networks are branded by their channel numbers in Mexico City, but are usually on completely different RF channels anywhere else. People in Tijuana don't seem to have a problem with "channel 7" appearing on UHF 27.

Even with our branding in the US, it makes not a whit of difference to me whether the station I know as "channel 8" is reaching my TV set through OTA analog at 180 MHz, or through OTA digital at 656 MHz (RF channel 45), or on digital cable at 558 MHz, or via DBS satellite at 12.something GHz. Doesn't matter - I punch in "8" on whatever device I'm using, and there's "channel 8."

Of course, it would cause stations to develop new bugs and hopefully, given current economic conditions, they might just opt to drop the damned things. That alone might make the DTV conversion worthwhile.

Totally separate and unrelated issue...but feel free to keep dreaming about it, if it makes you feel better.
 
Scott Fybush said:
Viewers have been accustomed to channel-number branding for 60+ years now, and the US is decidedly unusual in continuing to link our TV stations to physical RF transmission frequencies. As I've noted in other posts on this topic, if you go to the UK, for instance, and turn on an older analog TV set, it will have buttons for "channels" 1-4. Those are presets that are configured when you buy the set, and they point to local UHF transmitters that could be on any channel in the UK bandplan. In London, your "channel 1" (BBC1) button might point to RF channel 21; in Manchester, it might actually be RF channel 32. But it doesn't matter, except to the engineers. Or you could go to Mexico, where the national networks are branded by their channel numbers in Mexico City, but are usually on completely different RF channels anywhere else. People in Tijuana don't seem to have a problem with "channel 7" appearing on UHF 27.

Even with our branding in the US, it makes not a whit of difference to me whether the station I know as "channel 8" is reaching my TV set through OTA analog at 180 MHz, or through OTA digital at 656 MHz (RF channel 45), or on digital cable at 558 MHz, or via DBS satellite at 12.something GHz. Doesn't matter - I punch in "8" on whatever device I'm using, and there's "channel 8."

All are wonderful analogies that go a long way in explaining the concept of branding (and mapping). Another one that is somewhat closer to home involves the hundreds of translator stations that provide OTA television to viewers in mountainous and underpopulated regions of the USA. When I worked at the ABC affiliate in Salt Lake City, our station had a network of dozens of translators that broadcast our programming from northern Arizona and central Nevada to the edge of the Grand Tetons. Almost none of them shared our channel number (and brand) of channel 4. In fact, the station has gone so far in recent years as to brand themselves as "4 Utah." Yet, through most of its coverage area, it isn't found on channel 4. Only in the big cities within range of Farnsworth Peak.

If you ever spent time in rural Utah with an OTA television (and I did, thanks to relatives), you'd find that "channel 4" can be found on 10 or 29 or 43 or even 59. Basically, whatever VHF or UHF frequency has free space. Most counties maintain a system of translators providing programming from the Salt Lake ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox and PBS affiliates (and many also add local indie KJZZ for Utah Jazz coverage). They try to put those channels in the same order as they would be found in Salt Lake (i.e., CBS [2] at the lowest spot, then ABC [4], then NBC [5], etc.), but that's not always possible.

Yet all of the locals know where to find channel 4 or KSL-5, which is the local favorite. Ask someone in Orangeville to put on channel 5 and they will have KSL's translator on within a few seconds. Even if it's actually UHF channel 56. Bear in mind that many of these areas did not get cable service until the 1990s and some still don't have it. There are an awful lot of rural folks in the mountain west who get their network TV reception over-the-air from translators and relays.

Sorry for being long-winded, but there are many domestic examples of the concept that Scott is explaining. And, none of these viewers ever seem to have any confusion about where to find their favorite shows. And, I would have to say that the branding concept does work here too.
 
Did I read that, post transition, translators would be allowed to map to the parent station's psip (current analog) channel number?
 
poledo said:
Did I read that, post transition, translators would be allowed to map to the parent station's psip (current analog) channel number?

You did, they are, and it's seamless. I spent a night last fall in State College, PA, and didn't even realize until after I was home again and looking at station listings that the "6-1" and "6-2" I had locked in on when I scanned from my hotel room were coming from the State College translator of Johnstown's WJAC (on 7, I believe) and not from the main WJAC-DT transmitter.
 
Scott Fybush said:
You did, they are, and it's seamless. I spent a night last fall in State College, PA, and didn't even realize until after I was home again and looking at station listings that the "6-1" and "6-2" I had locked in on when I scanned from my hotel room were coming from the State College translator of Johnstown's WJAC (on 7, I believe) and not from the main WJAC-DT transmitter.

Channel 42. ;)

But I've seen a couple of translators first-hand, and it does seem to work well. I got W08EE-D on my trip home from NJ last week, and it was mapping to 24-1 as expected.

- Trip
 
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