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Two Hd-dx videos

L

LinoNYC

Guest
First is wabc purportedly from some 385 mi. Obviously the fading of the digital component makes it useless for anything more than a curiosity but the fac that he still has listenable analog is remarkable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWLjRGapZTs

Then we have Mr. Savage's nemesis, WHAM at some 235 mi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V_EkDqaHzU

For people such as myself who live in a major city, these distances are truly remarkable.

While perusing the hd videos I noticed some familiar hecklers from here and elsewhere. these guys must have endless time to comb the 'net hoping to stomp out any positive mention of their enemy.

Lino
 
LinoNYC said:
While perusing the hd videos I noticed some familiar hecklers from here and elsewhere. these guys must have endless time to comb the 'net hoping to stomp out any positive mention of their enemy.

Well, Lino - that presupposes that there really IS anything positive to be said about HD AM outside of the rarified situation of New York City and possibly some other city cores with nearby strong transmitters. I would estimate that 99.99% of the land area of the US is not served by HD AM at night because it is too far from a city to receive reliable HD reception.

385 miles is not a remarkable nighttime distance at all for analog AM. In fact, I can get that type of range on a few stations in the daytime. There are numerous examples of midwest regional blowtorches on low frequencies that easily top 300 miles. At night, I can easily top 1000 miles with a listenable signal on multiple frequencies. If it weren't for a glut of ill-advised new allocations, 1500 miles would be the norm. A large portion of those, by the way, were listenable in stereo at night when they used the C-Quam system.

Contrast these numbers with a few tens of miles at the most for daytime AM HD, and possibly less at night - and you have a system that is just not robust enough for suburban listeners - who are in the station's city grade analog signal. Let alone anybody outside by a few miles or listening on skywave. There are scattered reports of people managing a few seconds of HD lock - seeing call letters, etc at a few hundred miles, but it is always short lived and digital reception is impossible. Yet - I have heard HD sideband pairs for hundreds of miles - daytime - in remote areas of the West - there are not that many HD stations on the air, so the station generating the sidebands is NOT hard to track down even if there is no trace of its analog signal. No power increase would be possible on AM to try to increase range, with robust digital sidebands like that - any power increase would just raise the noise floor world wide!

So what can be done? I think it is a working system, it just doesn't work very well. A failed experiment that should be discarded - and something else tried. The government is shutting down analog TV and moving stations, so there would be precedent for moving the band. Two times in the past, massive station moves have been done - although there are many times more stations now - a digital only band within the AM band could be established. Longwave is a possibility, as is vacated TV spectrum. It may even be that there is a flaw in the basic decode algorithm causing unreliable decode.

Something is wrong - somewhere. Instead of bickering pointlessly and being in denial, somebody needs to diagnose what the problem is, come up with a workable solution, and see what it would take to implement. Best case scenario is an algorithm re-program and digital starts working. Worst case scenario is moving the band, all HD receivers sold up to this point would be useless unless they can be re-programmed to receive it. But the present system is CLEARLY flawed because it isn't robust enough, the problem should have been addressed years ago and fixed - now it is going to be much more difficult to fix because equipment is deployed in the field.

What a MESS - I am glad I'm not an engineer at iBiquity facing the prospects of cleaning up the mess and dealing with sloppy engineering from the past. Problems are much better addressed in early phases of development, and this has all the earmarks of something rushed to the market without enough testing - at the whim of upper level managers who forced the issue against the advice of engineers. Thank goodness no lives were at stake in this case. But it is the same type of thing that forced the engineers to fly the shuttle that cold morning in 1986.
 
LinoNYC said:
First is wabc purportedly from some 385 mi. Obviously the fading of the digital component makes it useless for anything more than a curiosity but the fac that he still has listenable analog is remarkable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWLjRGapZTs

Then we have Mr. Savage's nemesis, WHAM at some 235 mi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V_EkDqaHzU

For people such as myself who live in a major city, these distances are truly remarkable.

While perusing the hd videos I noticed some familiar hecklers from here and elsewhere. these guys must have endless time to comb the 'net hoping to stomp out any positive mention of their enemy.

Lino

Interesting post Lino. Although it is somewhat dissapointing to see the HD mode turn on and off so often for WABC. The other thing I noticed was that WHAM was being received far more in analog than digital.

WABC when decoding digital, sounded pretty good! Much better than the Radio Disney stations I've heard doing IBOC.

Do you know the poster of the video? If so, do you have any details on the antenna being used?
 
385 miles is not noteworthy. WSM, at 500 miles from Chicago often puts in a signal that sounds like a local.
Once outside the citygrade signals of 670,780 or 890, we can easily hear 660, 770, or 880 from NYC.
Thats 850 miles and not really dx. It's just normal AM MW operation.

Today I drove to central Wisconsin and back and listened to Chicago stations the whole time, 180 miles and back, no problems.
The ibocs sound better 'way out, where the hiss finally gets worn out, but the analog still makes it.
 
I just asked the guy who put up the videos what he was using for an antenna, was a kind of a conspicous absence of info, especially for a dXer. Makes me very suspicious.
 
OMG I cannot believe you, KB1OKL. On another thread you actually DEFEND someone for LYING about listening to a 0.1-watt homebrew Part-15 station from a thousand miles away for HOURS STRAIGHT on a crowded frequency (1650 AM) which, conveniently, just so happens to stream online (gee I'd like to see the video on THAT). Where was your skeptism toward that anti-IBOC, pro-DXer poster? Where were your questions investigating how he possibly pulled off a feat that real amateur operators dream about getting on clear, QRM-free shortwave frequencies? Now, someone shoots live video of HD Radio reception of two stations (which I can attest are very much plausible based on my own catches with a stock antenna) and all of a sudden you flip over to Mr. Skeptic? I've been around the block too, pal. You and I both know what measures up and what doesn't.

Contrary to your pseudo-religious hatred of IBOC, HD Radio on AM does function. It doesn't work well for a lot of people, and it causes LOTS of noise. We can all agree on that. But don't exude hipocrisy by treating a B.S. post from an anti-IBOC poster as gospel, while figuratively flipping the bird at someone for posting links for two live videos. All that does is undermine the validity of any of your posts.
 
KB1OKL said:
I just asked the guy who put up the videos what he was using for an antenna, was a kind of a conspicous absence of info, especially for a dXer. Makes me very suspicious.
Suspicious? I believe these videos are true. I'm my place, I can receive WBAP in HD (locks in WITH engine noise may I add) about 150 miles every day. Shure it has it's dropout while driving under powerlines, but the analog also becomes unlistenable at the same time. It amazes me that my truck has been able to pull this off. I wonder how much better I can lock the signal if I take out the engine noise?
 
I listened to the two videos. What is the purpose of HD for talk radio?
 
oldjohnny said:
KB1OKL said:
I just asked the guy who put up the videos what he was using for an antenna, was a kind of a conspicous absence of info, especially for a dXer. Makes me very suspicious.
Suspicious? I believe these videos are true. I'm my place, I can receive WBAP in HD (locks in WITH engine noise may I add) about 150 miles every day. Shure it has it's dropout while driving under powerlines, but the analog also becomes unlistenable at the same time. It amazes me that my truck has been able to pull this off. I wonder how much better I can lock the signal if I take out the engine noise?

I would say your reception report is verified. Your situation is unusual as the HD radio experience goes. Since you have good luck during the daytime - how much luck do you have at night? I am thinking KOA would be a prime target for HD nighttime reception from your area.
 
Some observations/questions.

1)-What the hell were they using for an antenna? I've never, and I mean NEVER gotten the HD to even flicker day/night/whenever on my Accurian on AM. NEVER! And I've spent hours trying with a variety of antennas (longwire outdoor, indoor tuned loop).

2)-Other than a drop in background noise when the signal goes digital, and a little less hf extension, don't you think the analog sounds better on WABC? I do!

I enjoy HD on FM, but have found AM HD to be about as useful as a "screen door on a submarine". I've heard only one demo that actually sounded good, with artifacting at a level I could tolerate. A clip I found on the web from WGN was very pleasant, with good stereo, and crisp audio. So obviously it CAN sound good. But it seems that it seldom actually does!
 
Mike Walker said:
1)-What the hell were they using for an antenna? I've never, and I mean NEVER gotten the HD to even flicker day/night/whenever on my Accurian on AM. NEVER! And I've spent hours trying with a variety of antennas (longwire outdoor, indoor tuned loop).

I have some observations - I've found tuned loops to be counterproductive for HD AM. I think the Q is too high to allow efficient reception of the sidebands. An untuned loop interacts with the active capacitance inside a Sangean HDT-1X and it will resonate with anything within reason. Which is another reason why a tuned loop is a bad idea - there is no "open" in the internal capatitance algorithm, which you would need with an external capacitance. That said, it takes a much larger loop than the miniature version they supply!

I've also noticed all kinds of different levels of HD reception. From barely enough to lock, and very little additional fidelity beyond analog, gradually adding high frequency response and then stereo. So HD lock is not an "all on / all off" like it is for FM. There are levels of lock. I wish somebody would document it somewhere because it is interesting.

So - even if HD lock occurs at 150 miles, or longer distances at night, it is probably at a low performance level. In Oldjohnny's case, I suspect the reason he is able to lock on WBAP at that distance is the complete lack of adjacent stations in his area. A single instance of an 810 or 830 would probably jam the sidebands. AM HD seems especially prone to adjacent channel interference, which is probably the same reason for the brick wall 5 kHz lowpass filters on analog. And it would also explain why it doesn't work at night. Any location in North America would have substantial analog content on every frequency - jammming HD.
 
I've already had catches like the ones in the video on my Sangean HDR-1, stock loop antenna, from WLW, KMOX, WHAM, KOA, WHAS, WGY, WTAM and WLAC. What I have noticed is that, for each of these stations, I was able to get a solid lock if the adjacent channels were considerably down, due to either selective skywave conditions, and/or nulling with the loop antenna.

As for short-range local stations at night, adjacent-channel interference cuts them to pieces pretty easily. I can rarely get WBBM-HD even though it is only 40 miles away, most likely due to skywave/groundwave mix and WABC. Sometimes WSCR-HD is tough to get if WFAN is booming in. And, this time of year if there is an electrical storm within 50 miles, I get NO HD on any channel. That was even the case when WLS was running HD at night, and that is only 19 miles away -- so strong I would hear no static on the analog signal.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
oldjohnny said:
KB1OKL said:
I just asked the guy who put up the videos what he was using for an antenna, was a kind of a conspicous absence of info, especially for a dXer. Makes me very suspicious.
Suspicious? I believe these videos are true. I'm my place, I can receive WBAP in HD (locks in WITH engine noise may I add) about 150 miles every day. Shure it has it's dropout while driving under powerlines, but the analog also becomes unlistenable at the same time. It amazes me that my truck has been able to pull this off. I wonder how much better I can lock the signal if I take out the engine noise?

I would say your reception report is verified. Your situation is unusual as the HD radio experience goes. Since you have good luck during the daytime - how much luck do you have at night? I am thinking KOA would be a prime target for HD nighttime reception from your area.
Night time is probably one of IBOC AM biggest threath (Ironically, IBOC is AM's biggest threath ;D)

I have been able to lock in KOA in 5 occassions (Haven't been DXing in a while now). The signal was usually locked in the early hours of the morning. WTAM is another station that I've managed to lock. WBAP left their HD on one night, but to a wild surprise, I couldn't lock. WOAI has locked as well. But not as often as I would have tought. That is pretty much it for night time HD DX.
 
LinoNYC said:
First is wabc purportedly from some 385 mi. Obviously the fading of the digital component makes it useless for anything more than a curiosity but the fac that he still has listenable analog is remarkable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWLjRGapZTs

Then we have Mr. Savage's nemesis, WHAM at some 235 mi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V_EkDqaHzU

For people such as myself who live in a major city, these distances are truly remarkable.

While perusing the hd videos I noticed some familiar hecklers from here and elsewhere. these guys must have endless time to comb the 'net hoping to stomp out any positive mention of their enemy.

Lino

Just to let you know I was in contact with this guy several times and he was using a commercial loop antenna and was living on the second floor of an apartment building about 200-300 ft above the average terrain when he received these miraculous receptions ,he is a DXer and knows how to get the most out of his equipment. He has now moved to a much lower vantage point and only receives ONE HD station which is very close to him and also has come to a conclusion: HD is only good for cars. This is the truth, these miraculous receptions were very much out of the ordinary received by a DX'er using specialized DX equipment with an excellent DX vantage point to listen from. I will not publish our correspondence as he sent them to me in confidence.
 
Sorry, that's not miraculous reception. I get these catches as I listed in my prior post quite frequently, nearly at ground level using totally stock equipment.
 
Philip J. Smith said:
Sorry, that's not miraculous reception. I get these catches as I listed in my prior post quite frequently, nearly at ground level using totally stock equipment.

This guy was from Illinois too.
How flat is the terrain where you live, what do you use? How far is your farthest IBOC lock and how long was that for? Whether you believe it or not, that is not normal IBOC reception especially for your average Joe
 
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