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Two Stations On The Same Frequency Very Close in Distance

H

HudsonValley1967

As you drive 209 between Port Jervis and Kingston you find that you leave WDLC-AM coverage and you start to pick-up WKNY-AM. The two unlimited (old school Class IV's) both operate on 1490 KHz, have the same power ouput and use a single stick. The "leave and start" point is about Wurtsboro.

At a distance between both transmitters of 52.5493 miles, is this the shortest distance between two stations on the same frequency with a single stick? I am sure there are examples of closer spaced signals on the same frequency.

Perhaps terrain blockage (in Port Jervis) is the key to the short distance.
 
This isn't all that unusual--remember, the class C (formerly class IV) stations only get their 4 mv/m contours protected, which is hardly any protection at all.

But the FCC has short spaced a lot of more powerful stations as well. Think of the two 5 kW regionals on 1260, one in Erie, PA and one in Cleveland, only about 75 miles apart. True, they're directional 24/7 and supposed to protect each other, but it's a total mess on the 1260 channel around Ashtabula as you're making the drive between Buffalo and Cleveland. Both of those stations went on the air on that channel at the same time (around 1947) and I don't know what the FCC was thinking.
 
It is interesting how crowded 1490 is around here. Along with WKNY in Kingston and WDLC in Port Jervis, dont forget about WGCH in Greenwich CT.

Conversely, 1340 seems to be much less crowded in this area. I can usually hear WALL as far away as Wappingers and parts of Poughkeepsie. It can be heard as far south as Harriman, and as far north as Liberty. Does anyone know what station on 1340 is closest to WALL?
 
My first guess was WYBC (ex-WNHC) in New Haven, but I was wrong: it's 126 km from WALL to WYBC, and only 118 km from WALL to WYCK in Plains (Wilkes-Barre) PA. Next closest on 1340 is WBRK Pittsfield MA, just under 150 km away.

The 1330s in NYC and Troy and 1350 in Norwalk reduce the number of potential 1340s in the region.
 
WDLC to WKNY-a close 84.5 Km.

WKIP and WGNY were once owned by the same company. The FCC required WKIP to build a 2nd tower to go directional. Perhaps the only time an
old school class IV in the HV had two towers.
 
And then, there's WJGK's "The Fox" on 103.1 and it is simulcasting via translator W247AW at 97.3 in Poughkeepsie and it is still covered by "The Wolf" on 97.3 which is WZAD. That is a total waste, two stations on a same frequency. I have two links to show you.

W247AW's Signal Coverage
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=W247AW&service=FX&status=L&hours=U

WZAD's Signal Coverage
http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WZAD&service=FM&status=L&hours=U

There is also the ID mentions "Fox 97.3 & 103.1", and this is the same problem they did in New Jersey when it is on WKMK's "Thunder Country" at 106.3 and it covers most of NYC and then still covered by a pirate station in Brooklyn. That is a waste of time. I hope maybe you should tell the FCC that it needs to pull the plug on W247AW's translator. If they do, why not move it to 91.7 WFRH and this still carries "Family Radio", and they need to sell it out soon to go to "The Fox" at 91.7. WFME is a example of selling out "Family Radio" and WFRH will be the next one to go out.
 
Closest I know of (on the same frequency) would be three more 1340 stations -- WRAW Reading, WHAT Philadelphia, and the big-signalled WMID Atlantic City.
Reading is not that far a drive up the Schuylkill from Philadelphia. But there is a bit of terrain-factor.

The small state of New Jersey has an omni licensed to 1310 in Asbury Park, plus one in Camden. Yet, back in the 70's, on came a new 1310 in Parsippany/Troy Hills. I suppose the Camden and the Asbury Park ones were protected by the 1300 in Trenton.
But the new one (at the time called WPRJ) had nowhere to send their signal but northwest.

1510 WRAN in Dover NJ and 1500 WKER Pompton Lakes NJ were always puzzlingly close.

WWRL 1600 was so directional -- mostly straight down Flatbush Avenue through Brooklyn -- that a 1590 in Plainfield NJ was allowed to sign on in the WWRL null.
Not just that, but ANOTHER 1590, in Port Chester NY, on the *other* side of WWRL's pattern in the resprocal null, was issued a construction permit sometime around the late 60s. They never came on, to my knowledge.


That WKNY-WDLC thing certainly is curious, though. But with the terrain plus the noise problems in recent times, there could not be very much overlap left at all -- if there ever had been. And WDLC traditionally had a tough time getting out of Port Jervis back in the 60's, when things were quieter.
 
IIRC, WFLY/WXRK and WYJB/WPLJ are just kilometers short-spaced per 1963 rules, right? Probably explains why WGNA had to go on 107.7 (there's a 107.3 in Utica as well, so 107.5 wouldn't have fit in Albany) and WPYX on 106.5 (also the 106.9 in Syracuse would be in the way if a 106.7 were in Albany)

WTRY and WSUL however, are not short-spaced, but I could get WSUL from this area if WTRY went off the air for any reason :)
 
AM versus FM short spacing are apples and oranges.

There are several short spaced FM stations, some very significant.

The best example of this is the New England 103.7's. WKNE-FM to WPKQ is a mere 162kM (The FCC required spacing in this day and age for a B to C is supposed to be 274kM , so these stations are 112kM short. (WPKQ does have a directional antenna which helps some, but it really, badly, chews into the coverage area of WKNE-FM.) WKNE to the Rhode Island WEEI (WWRX) is 173kM, and the spacing is normally 241kM. That one falls 68kM short.
 
WRRV on 92.7 and WQBU-FM 92.7 in New Rochelle
Z-100 in NYC on 100.3 & 100.3 WRNB-FM Philly
CBS-FM 101.1 in NYC & 101.1 WBEB-FM Philly
107.1 The Breeze NJ & 107.1 The Peak in West Chester
 
WNET Channel 13 Newark and WNYT CH13 Albany used to be close spaced. Although I think WNYT must have been somewhat limited to the south as at the half waypoint between the two, Poughkeepsie we got WNYT. However sometimes during the summer in pre cable days, there was occasionally some interference in parts of the Mid-Hudson Valley, with WNET dominating. Now with the conversion to digital WNYT although is still on virtual Channel 13 but broadcasts on RF channel 12. They have three translators to fill in the dead spots.

On radio -99.5 WRRV ’The River Schenectady, -and 99.5 WBAI NYC.

In addition, I remember listening to 97.7, now WCZX, Hyde Park traveling north. We past over a mountain and began receiving 97.7 now WEXT Amsterdam. Not exactly close spaced, but the transition from one to the other was rather quick. They were both good stations back then, although Amsterdam always struggled to find a niche.


The 107.1 stations you referred to used to be part of a quad cast surrounding NYC with a complicated highly directional signal broadcasting the same thing , trying to cover the city . It did not work out.
 
XCountry285 said:
WRRV on 92.7 and WQBU-FM 92.7 in New Rochelle
Z-100 in NYC on 100.3 & 100.3 WRNB-FM Philly
CBS-FM 101.1 in NYC & 101.1 WBEB-FM Philly
107.1 The Breeze NJ & 107.1 The Peak in West Chester
Click to expand...

WRRV and WQBU are only short by 17kM.
WRNB is short to WCBS, but operates directional with a deep null towards there and due east as well.
WCBS-FM and WBEB are very short both running non directional.

MHVRadiofan said:
WNET Channel 13 Newark and WNYT CH13 Albany used to be close spaced. Although I think WNYT must have been somewhat limited to the south as at the half waypoint between the two, Poughkeepsie we got WNYT. However sometimes during the summer in pre cable days, there was occasionally some interference in parts of the Mid-Hudson Valley, with WNET dominating. Now with the conversion to digital WNYT although is still on virtual Channel 13 but broadcasts on RF channel 12. They have three translators to fill in the dead spots.

The 107.1 stations you referred to used to be part of a quad cast surrounding NYC with a complicated highly directional signal broadcasting the same thing , trying to cover the city . It did not work out.
Click to expand...

WNYT Analog 13 was in fact short to WNET, which is why they were located on Bald Mountain instead of much farther south at the major TV farm in the Heldebergs. WNYT also operated a directional pattern analog, with a notch towards NYC. WTEN was also short to WJAR in Providence, RI, with a null aimed towards Rhode Island. (Of course the coverage in that area was supplanted by WCDC 19). WNYT-TV runs tight to WNAC-TV in Providence, RI.

As far as the 107.1 "quad cast" is concerned, the three stations which were directional, were only due to short spacings.
WWZY was short to someone in Pennsylvania, WXPK is short to 107.3 WRWD in Kingston, and WLIR is short to 106.7/107.5 in New York City.
WWZY has since moved and is running non directional now. WWYY never was directional at any point.
 
WNNK Harrisburg and WAEB-FM Allentown, both 104.1 class B non-directional, are only 123km / 76.5mi apart and should be 237km / 147mi apart (short spaced 114km / 70mi).

WQXA York and WJZ-FM Catonsville (Baltimore), both 105.7 class B (but both are directional) are only 76km / 47 miles apart, (short spaced 161km / 100mi)

Necrat is spot on talking about apples/oranges AM/FM. If you hav poor ground conductivity you can place two AMs on the same frequency closer to each other. For FMs you use terrain (such as mountains between the two towers) to prove there won't be any problem (what the FCC calls 'contour protection.')


Adding to the conversation on AMs on 1340: WYCK Plains (Wilkes-Barre PA) and WWPA Williamsport PA are 99km / 61.7 mi apart; both are 1 tower and both used to be 1kw but WYCK dropped to 810 watts when it moved a few miles east (farther away from Williamspot). Otherwise, back when WYCK was licensed to Wilkes-Barre it was 1kw and even closer to WWPA.
 
In Eastern Massachusetts, WCEC in Haverhill and WMRC in Milford both broadcast on 1490; while WESX in Nahant and WNEB in Worcester both are on 1230.
 
WINW (now silent) Canton OH and WKNT (now WJMP) Kent, OH...two 1000 watt highly directional signals @ 1520 AM just 33 miles or so apart. From what I've been told the two closest liscensed signals in the country. Although now the Canton signal is now off the air, in the late 60s and early 70s, was a highly rated top 40 for the Canton market. Neither signal listenable in key parts of their metros, due to strong nulls in both signals.
 
I have one, and it's Hudson Valley related.

There are in fact two sticks, 44 miles (72.1 kM) apart, both are 1kW, non directional, on the same AM frequency.

One is semi in the Hudson Valley (I suppose you could contest it). The other is in a different state...

I'll see if anyone figures it out in the next day or so...
 
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