Underground VS Commercial

[d21ofnj]

I came up with this topic to discuss matters within dance music about the underground fans and the ones who are pushing dance to become commercial.  Now, to start it off by saying I am one of those underground fans of dance music, who grew up with the sounds of progressive hard house, hard trance, or basically the "heavy metal" of dance from 1999-2003, being involved in the network to understand the business side of things to get dance on commercial radio really opened up the box for me.  I have read the post MWC made, and for that to state, I did the generous thing, and tried my best to help a certain individual to look on the other side of things.  Unfortunately, the attitude and the close minded decisions and statements this person said, and heard what he said also to those that are helping dance succeed in commercial radio.  I understand where the purists are coming from, to accept dance music in ALL aspect, even support some underground.  I know, that the best clubs that were out there were SoundFactory, Limelight, Tunnel, and how the sounds of hard house were mixed by popular DJ's such as Louie DeVito, Bad Boy Joe, Hex Hector, Jonathan Peters.  But now, we are in a new sound, and as time changes, so did the music, and the purists are not happy about it.  I happen to come across certain statements made not only by this person, but others where I network in the area. 

I hear statements like, "the commercial sound has gotten to a lot of internet stations who want to slam the door on underground" and "the consumers want the underground fans to support and push more of a commercial beat instead of the underground beat"  Recently at a venue, couple of fans came up to the booth and said "if only these DJ's stayed true to the work they created back in the day, we would never have to deal with this party pop crap" and " I supported them on how they were underground, now that these guys sold out to the mainstream, they p!5$3d on the face of the true fans who supported them." 

As you all know, I am a crazed dance fan, but I am also learning the basics of how the business works.  I enjoy my classic tunes from ATB, CJ Stone, Hex Hector, Thunderpuss, Richie Santana, SM Trax, and all the bootleg SoundFactory, Club Exit, hard house cd's I have, but at the same time, I am not shoving it down the commercial's throats saying the new dance stuff is out of it's true roots.  So what if Pitbull, Rihanna, or David Guetta working with Akon, Flo-Rida, and Black Eyed Peas is commercial dance.......


IT IS STILL DANCE MUSIC!!!!!

I apologize for going on a little vent, but this is something I had to get off my chest and even though I am doing my part into the purists to take the negative out, there are those who won't understand. 

 

[Wildstyle K]

I believe one of the main problems with dance today is the "gap" that exists in mainstream play between the 90's and today's generation (which was split up due to the "hip hop takeover"). Now, because of this illusionary gap, not only does it seem like this whole new generation dance sound is some new phenomenon, but the fact that it continued to evolve as "underground" music as most people took their attention off dance and became fixated or focused on hip hop that makes this new generation sound seem so "different and out there" (because it "came back" as a "different styled product"). It would've surely been different if dance continued to coexist along with the hip hop movement in the mainstream the entire time so people could continuously hear it and be used to the evolution and changes that took place over time. This is also the problem with modern freestyle as well. Because of the gap in time, there is a "separation" between the old (pre 2000) and the new (post 2000), so it's hard to accept the new, modernized sound as freestyle because it sounds like something completely different that just "started up", even though it's really no more different than how Debbie Deb's style was compared to TKA's style, yet BOTH of those styles are still freestyle.

The other thing is HOW this whole new generation uptempo sound all started this time around. It was bizarre and unusual. Unlike the past, where you'd have established dance artists making dance hits they were known for that also crossed over to mainstream, this time around you have hip hoppers and pop artists who flipped the script and "turned dance" - all seemingly at once - on a massive scale! Now, how could something like this happen without confusing a bunch of people who still see many of these artists as the hip hop and pop artists/producers that they used to be? It also caught many people and stations "off guard", and sort of happened "so quick" that many didn't have time to adjust, which only resulted in it becoming "the new hip hop", according to former wanna be urban stations. The only ones really prepared were the top 40 stations, because of course, anything that becomes big is a hit, and they play HIT MUSIC. So, therefore, they "didn't care". I also don't think so many people expected electro-hip hop and the whole Edward Maya ft Vika Romanian sound to pop up as another new sound in dance, in addition to the David Guetta throbbing bass beat style a bunch of people have jumped on recently (which in reality are just intensified, more electronic and melodic versions of those same shuffle style beats that started out being used by people like Danity Kane, Rihanna, Christina Aguilera, Britney...etc. that once typically had no hi hats in them).

I believe the new Taio Cruise and Usher style of dance (which somewhat resembles a modern version of the Robin S. "show me love" sound) really helped to calm down, but at the same time also spice things up a bit for the new sound of rhythmic dance by providing the smooth, groovy, laid back but dancey melodies, easy going party lyrics, and rhythmic arrangements that are easily acceptable to the average person. This was a good balance to the more "hard style" electronic beats that are currently beginning to pick up as more people feel free to be more edgy. I also believe the Edward Maya style will help rather than hurt by providing, yet again, another new style and sound that isn't "played out".

I could see how the underground lovers would especially reject this new generation sound because this time around, it's not even mainly mainstream dance artists that "became sell outs and went soft". It's actually the same pop stars that everyone likes to ridicule, and those same rappers that many people hated for "stealing the spotlight" who ARE NOW in the mainstream DANCE scene! Imagine that - the same artists "you" criticized for being cheesy and bubbly BECOMING the mainstream version of "your" sound! As for me, I don't mind who's singing the song - as long as it's good. However, there are too many people who cannot bring their minds to see the difference between genres and singers and believe the singer's acapella AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFORMS the entire production to becoming whatever genre the singer is mostly known for, regardless of what the actual genre of the finished production product really is. I also see on the bpm comments board(s) how people criticize a bunch of dance songs they play JUST BECAUSE they are mainstream, yet those same exact songs would be HIGHLY PRAISED if only they weren't "commercial". I don't see how you could hate poppy dance, but Kaskade "fire in your shoes" is acceptable since its not as mainstream as Rihanna or Mike Posner or Cascada... or Alexis Jordan... or NE-YO. I'm not saying true underground supporters can't speak up for something they desire, but just make sure you THINK before you REACT, or you're only going to end up acting like a protestor who riots or disrupts city streets - they are not thinking and half the time have no solid, factual idea of even WHY they are upset. Think about it - Kaskade's "fire in your new shoes" is REALLY NO DIFFERENT from much of the commercial electro-pop sound, so why is that one acceptable, but Lady Gaga or Black Eyed Peas are crap and should be shunned from BPM?

 

[technodj]

I came up with this topic to discuss matters within dance music about the underground fans and the ones who are pushing dance to become commercial. Now, to start it off by saying I am one of those underground fans of dance music, who grew up with the sounds of progressive hard house, hard trance, or basically the "heavy metal" of dance from 1999-2003, being involved in the network to understand the business side of things to get dance on commercial radio really opened up the box for me. I have read the post MWC made, and for that to state, I did the generous thing, and tried my best to help a certain individual to look on the other side of things. Unfortunately, the attitude and the close minded decisions and statements this person said, and heard what he said also to those that are helping dance succeed in commercial radio. I understand where the purists are coming from, to accept dance music in ALL aspect, even support some underground. I know, that the best clubs that were out there were SoundFactory, Limelight, Tunnel, and how the sounds of hard house were mixed by popular DJ's such as Louie DeVito, Bad Boy Joe, Hex Hector, Jonathan Peters. But now, we are in a new sound, and as time changes, so did the music, and the purists are not happy about it. I happen to come across certain statements made not only by this person, but others where I network in the area.

I hear statements like, "the commercial sound has gotten to a lot of internet stations who want to slam the door on underground" and "the consumers want the underground fans to support and push more of a commercial beat instead of the underground beat" Recently at a venue, couple of fans came up to the booth and said "if only these DJ's stayed true to the work they created back in the day, we would never have to deal with this party pop crap" and " I supported them on how they were underground, now that these guys sold out to the mainstream, they p!5$3d on the face of the true fans who supported them."

As you all know, I am a crazed dance fan, but I am also learning the basics of how the business works. I enjoy my classic tunes from ATB, CJ Stone, Hex Hector, Thunderpuss, Richie Santana, SM Trax, and all the bootleg SoundFactory, Club Exit, hard house cd's I have, but at the same time, I am not shoving it down the commercial's throats saying the new dance stuff is out of it's true roots. So what if Pitbull, Rihanna, or David Guetta working with Akon, Flo-Rida, and Black Eyed Peas is commercial dance.......


IT IS STILL DANCE MUSIC!!!!!

I apologize for going on a little vent, but this is something I had to get off my chest and even though I am doing my part into the purists to take the negative out, there are those who won't understand.

Let me fix that scroll for you:
IT IS TRULY CRAP!!!!!

What you don't seem to understand is, the purists are actually trying to get rid of the neagtive. Get the picture?

 

[Morpheux]

All I'm going to say is this- This popular forum on facebook posted today that their POP hit of the day is Rihanna-Only girl in the world



We're taking over....... one minute at a time ;D ;D

 

[TonySantiago]

TechnoDJ (and anyone else that feels similar)

This is the problem in a nutshell....something I've experienced for years.

As an underground dance music fan for about 35 years, I certainly LOVE the deeper sounds of our music. Always will. If you hear my show on Party Radio USA, I go VERY edgy as a "challenge" to not just you, but to those that are semi-casual to open up to those deeper sounds. However, in order to do that, I HAVE to go commercial on this to an extent. To me, it is NOT selling out, but opening up the doors to those casual fans that scared to cross through because of the "persecution" core fans give them.

The reality is, there are less core die hard dance music fans in this country than there are "casual". Because of that, and I DO understand, the core feel a certain obligation to staunchly state what IS dance, versus what ISN'T. However, that same type of mentality has ALWAYS kept us back and at times DESTROYED us (the Pulse 87/Party FM 87.7 mess in New York always crosses my mind on this). I will also mention one DJ on Facebook imparticular (SAY NO NAMES IF YOU KNOW WHO I'M TALKING ABOUT) and a video by a "John Pine".

It's no wonder why R&B, hip-hop, country and other popular genres get more respect in terms of mainstream media than WE do. And now that artists like Rihanna, Beyonce, Jay Sean, Usher are doing rhythmic tracks with dance remixes that ARE getting popular on CHR stations throughout the country, we really NEED to "tolerate" this, that is if you cannot embrace it. Keep reading as I explain further.....

Your typical 20 something girl thinks of those artists I've mentioned above as dance. And if MORE of that can get out there, then perhaps down the road more people will be open to dance, to the point of accepting the underground sounds since they have become exposed and want MORE music along the way and are willing to be "challenged".

"Selling out?" Not for nothing, and I've asked this of MANY artists in the industry, but 99.9 out of 100 want to MAKE MONEY and earn a living doing this. They LOVE what they do, don't get me wrong, but they want to enter the music industry as their career...not sing or produce "part time" while working a 9 to 5 job fearing that if they WANTED a career, they would be "selling out". They certainly don't want to be in this as a "hobby" either. Sure, they produce music for the sake of the music, but if they can earn some bucks on downloads, I don't see them saying...NO, I DON'T WANNA SELL OUT! I'LL TAKE LESS MONEY IF IT MEANS I KEEP THE EDGE!

Point is, we are at a positive time right now for our music and I can only see things growing for us. But for those that are purists underground, do understand you can love this music but if you keep this mentality going, you will continue to hold us back. This time around, I cannot afford to let that happen to us. If Rihanna, Usher, etc. will help get a Tiesto, Armin Van Buuren, Afrojack, Sylvia Tosun, etc. exposure to the masses, then that is a GOOD thing. I may be a purist myself but at the same time, I am also a realist. Fact of the matter is....more exposure means MORE money and airplay. "Sell out" is not a curse word. Hindering things are cursing ourselves.

Thank you

 

[BJSteigner]

I wonder if Kathy Brown, Sunshine Jones, Kiko Navarro, Kerri Chandler and every great underground music singer, remixer and producer would love to watch this blog get out of control.

 

[TonySantiago]

BJ,

With your comments, you are proving to be the perfect example of what I mean by purists holding things back. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Wildstyle K]

I'd consider Rihanna more of a dance / electronic artist than many of the others who "suddenly turned dance" when they were ready to flee from hip hop. Why? Simple. Because unlike the others, she actually started out releasing or doing AT LEAST SOME forms and styles of dance ALONG WITH ther slower pop stuff, which is what many of the former dance (or known as dance) artists have done in past times. Some dance artists stick to one sound, but most don't. Most do a variety of poppy sounds in addition to releasing dance singles, which is what Rihanna has done. Only difference is Rihanna happened to pop up during (or right before) the quasi era, therefore she did it quasi style. Some known "dance artists" release more uptempo material than slower material. Others do the opposite, but are still known mostly for the uptempo hits. Rihanna is one who has actually done more SLOWER material, but still has an acceptable amount of successful, new generation quasi house & b dance releases.

I think Rihanna's qualified to be on both sides of the fence, since she has proven that she could do both styles well. Same with Pitbull, who I believe his true passion IS dance 1st and slow tempo hip hop 2nd. As far as Usher, Ne-yo, and... some of the others, THEIR PRODUCERS are the ones I'd say are more into the sound than the singers themselves are. Timbaland and Missy, well, obviously they are just in to music, period. Flo Rida? Another genuine dance fan, and I say he is actually a true dance fan because he's shown genuine interest in more than just the house style beats that many people tend to get "stuck" on. I think Akon is just interested in rhythmic electronica and trancy sounds, period. Lil Jon is versatile and uses that to successfully manage to always change with the times. He started producing reggae/dancehall, got heavy into Atlanta Booty Bass, then not only did he successfully transition to Atlanta dirty south music, but perfected it and helped to make it become a nationwide sound rather than just an Atl regional sound, and now has moved on to house / baltimore club sounds. Notice Lil Jon carried some level of electronic touches & elements within his productions throughout each evolution in trends (even in Usher's "yeah"). Britney seems to like any type of pop, even if it's electro-pop. And lastly, Will-I-Am of Black Eyed Peas has a true passion for the electronic sound. Whether it has always been or if it's a new found passion of his, I don't know. Many others who I left out, I wouldn't say they are necessarily fakes, but rather people who heard "their people" doing something different and became inspired to try something outside of the box for a change, which did help lead to the success of electro-hip hop today. They tried a dance sound, but obviously kept true to their true passion and converted it to electro hip hop (as opposed to doing traditional dance). I have absolutely no idea what KE$HA likes, and it's obvious Mariah Carey "refuses to" go any faster than she's ever gone in her life. Even Eminem "got a little fast", a few times. I wish Aaliyah was still around to see how she would react to what has happened in music.

So, in other words, Rihanna, Pitbull, Flo Rida, and Will-I-Am I'd say deserve some true credit. Akon as well, and LMFAO.

 

[BJSteigner]

Tony:

How about both underground and commercial working together to bring dance more visible to everyone and it doesn't matter about race, religions or gender.

 

[TonySantiago]

The commercial has to go through first in order for the underground to be accepted. But the purists in the underground HAVE to open up to "allowing" their music to become exposed to more people than the "selected few".

We can no longer be "selfish" about our music.

 

[BJSteigner]

The commercial has to go through first in order for the underground to be accepted. But the purists in the underground HAVE to open up to "allowing" their music to become exposed to more people than the "selected few".

We can no longer be "selfish" about our music.

What is one of the elements that underground purist HAVE to understand about the commercial sound?

What does commercial purist HAVE that underground purist don't?

 

[Wildstyle K]

I did forget to mention that in the UK Dance Music Forums under the topic of "future garage", someone said "be careful what you wish for", which was in regards to the amount of people in UK Garage who want their music back in the mainstream in London. The "be careful what you wish for" guy's point was the only way to "keep it genuine and good" was to let the sound stay underground and don't try to push it back into the mainstream. I agree with him, but I'm not sure if I actually PREFER one way over the other. The only problem with breaking mainstream is the fact that you know death will eventually come. However, imagine if while we were still in our previous lives of being sperm or the 9 months of living inside the mother, we decided not to move on to the next life just because "we knew eventually death would come". Imagine that. So, I guess since we are ALREADY sliding into the spotlight, we might as well at least enjoy the ride, regardless of how cheesy or bubble gum it may seem, because we (like us when we were still sperm cells) were the ones chosen to rise up and shine right now. At least "our sound" has been chosen to be adored and welcomed into this generation. There are many others out there (see the uk garage people on the London forums) who wish their sound(s) were receiving the sure sign chances of mainstream life we have right now in music. Look at the alternative / rock lovers right now in the chr section wondering where "their music" went. They are really crying. Not to mention anyone who loves Jazz, Reggae, or Spanish Top 40. They're still swimming around "waiting to be picked" again.

 

[Wildstyle K]

What's funny about today's music is that it's sort of hard to really determine whether or not it's cheesy. After all, when compared to what was once on the charts just two or three years back, it's hard to say what is passing as top 40 or pop NOW is worse. However, when you compare this entire generation as a whole with past times, there is a noticeable difference.

HOWEVER:

Lets say it were possible for the President to pass MUSIC CARE, and we had to pick ONE generation of dance / pop sound to start today with and evolve from from there. Would you choose to erase all of today's music sounds and start back with euro dance and the 90's or even 80's sound, or would you vote to leave it alone and just let things be as they are RIGHT NOW? Which generation would we be willing to let take over for today, based on the things we already know we've had to put up with in past music? Would we want to go back, or would we prefer to see how the current unknown pans out?

Think about it.

This is why I say it's difficult to decide what is REALLY cheesy. I personally don't know if I'd be willing to give up today's sound and go back to euro dance or even Ce Ce Penniston and those days of music, despite the fact that that is where Jocelyn Enriquez, Angelina, Rockell...etc are. If MUSIC CARE were to get rid of all the commercial dance and make the underground sound the new commercial dance, would it still be considered "just as good" as it was when it was underground?

 

[BJSteigner]

If MUSIC CARE were to get rid of all the commercial dance and make the underground sound the new commercial dance, would it still be considered "just as good" as it was when it was underground?

KDM...You hit a bullseye with that liner...I have to admit. You are very good at this.

I will bow to you in respect.