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Underwriting: can you say they're Christian?

Re: Why would you?

radioelizabeth wrote:
"But that is part of what we are talking about."

varedhead wrote:
"No it wasn't, it was about the legality of the description."


Actually, no.

The original post posed that question. MY post, which this thread is following was NOT about the legality.




<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

radioelizabeth wrote:
"Again...what benefit does it bring the client, the listener, and the station?

varedhead wrote:
"The answer is so obvious yet it seems to be such a hard thing to understand for some reason."

Because it isn't obvious.


varehead wrote:
"The client is happy, the listener knows the business is Christian owned and with those two elements happy, that makes a happy station."

So happy is the goal? Or results?

I'll give you that it makes the client happy. I've not heard how it makes the listener happy. How does knowing a station is "Christian owned" equate making the listener any happier than knowing it's located on their block? And how exactly does that translate into results for the client, listener, and station?


varedhead wrote:
"Of course I am being flippant but this is going somewhere really strange."

Yes, you are. And I think that disregards the importance of the discussion.

The topic is not strange...it's relevant.

varedhead wrote:
"In all reality it doesn't matter if the description is there or not, most listeners figure that if it is on a Christian station, the station will make sure the product/business being underwritten represents their standards."

Fine. If that is the premise, then it isn't necessary. So then it's wasted copy space?


I think quite a lot of assumptions are being put on the listener. Especially the new listener.

And I'm not too sure I see how adding the word "Christian" to any advertisement/underwriter adds value to the spot outside of simply giving the client what they want in their copy. Which is acceptable...but perhaps not the best use of airtime? Especially if there may be a greater disadvantage in adding that word.

Again...the hope would be that anything airing on a station would bring value to the listener, results to the client and success to a station.

How does adding this word do that exactly...specifically?

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

> radioelizabeth wrote:
> "Again...what benefit does it bring the client, the
> listener, and the station?
>
> varedhead wrote:
> "The answer is so obvious yet it seems to be such a hard
> thing to understand for some reason."
>
> Because it isn't obvious.
>
>
Then I'm sorry you don't get it. Perhaps a colleague of yours could explain it better.
 
Re: Why would you?

I was answering the orginal post, I could care less if you insert "Christian Owned" or not.
> The original post posed that question. MY post, which this
> thread is following was NOT about the legality.
>
 
Re: Why would you?

MY post, which this thread is following was NOT about the legality.

Then I will leave your discussion because it is off topic.
> >
>
 
Re: Why would you?

> "Hopefully the adjective means the business is run on
> Christian principles, i.e. honesty, integrity, generousity,
> etc. Personally, I'd rather hear someone state that
> outright than to call themselves a "Christian business", but
> that would seem to more blatantly violate the underwriting
> rules."
>
> varedhead wrote:
> "Exactly! You get it! clap clap."
>
>
> Consider that the adjective could also mean: broken, sinful
> and very fallen.
>
> Honesty, Integrity, Generosity, etc. are not exclusive to
> the Christian. So I'm not seeing that the word "Christian"
> separates the business from any other.


Eh...you're being too smart about it. Everybody else is wanting a shortcut...a "hit and run" word to quickly create an impression that is favorable to the business.

Never having done non-comm and finding the regs and court cases not necessarily entirely clear, I don't know the answer to the original question. I just wish someone did and would definitively answer it. It seems to me (always a dangerous way to start a sentence) that "Christian-owned" is merely descriptive, especially considering that that could, depending on the hearer, be viewed as a positive *or* negative.

As long as we're off on tangents, how about "Owner Joe Blow has information about his Christian approach to (nature of business) on his website..." as a way of handling these kinds of things?
 
Re: Why would you?

varedhead wrote:
"Then I'm sorry you don't get it. Perhaps a colleague of yours could explain it better."


Look... I'm going to be direct.

You are dodging a pretty basic question.

My previous post was full of additional discussion that in this reply is flat out ignored, while you've chosen instead to edit out the "meat" and respond that I am ignorant.

I definitely "get it".

There is discussion here...whether or not you care to participate.

But you certainly do not need to approach it with defense or a flippant attitude.

Elizabeth
<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

varedhead wrote:
"I must have missed the meat.



Wow. That is just rude.


Thanks for making a great case for that word "Christian".


Here's the post again in case you would like another try or perhaps another will take a stab at it:

_______________________________________________________________

radioelizabeth wrote:
"Again...what benefit does it bring the client, the listener, and the station?

varedhead wrote:
"The answer is so obvious yet it seems to be such a hard thing to understand for some reason."

Because it isn't obvious.


varehead wrote:
"The client is happy, the listener knows the business is Christian owned and with those two elements happy, that makes a happy station."

So happy is the goal? Or results?

I'll give you that it makes the client happy. I've not heard how it makes the listener happy. How does knowing a station is "Christian owned" equate making the listener any happier than knowing it's located on their block? And how exactly does that translate into results for the client, listener, and station?


varedhead wrote:
"Of course I am being flippant but this is going somewhere really strange."

Yes, you are. And I think that disregards the importance of the discussion.

The topic is not strange...it's relevant.

varedhead wrote:
"In all reality it doesn't matter if the description is there or not, most listeners figure that if it is on a Christian station, the station will make sure the product/business being underwritten represents their standards."

Fine. If that is the premise, then it isn't necessary. So then it's wasted copy space?


I think quite a lot of assumptions are being put on the listener. Especially the new listener.

And I'm not too sure I see how adding the word "Christian" to any advertisement/underwriter adds value to the spot outside of simply giving the client what they want in their copy. Which is acceptable...but perhaps not the best use of airtime? Especially if there may be a greater disadvantage in adding that word.

Again...the hope would be that anything airing on a station would bring value to the listener, results to the client and success to a station.

How does adding this word do that exactly...specifically?
 
Re: Why would you?

neutral observer wrote:
" Everybody else is wanting a shortcut...a "hit and run" word to quickly create an impression that is favorable to the business."


Does this word create a favorable impression? I'm not too sure. Much of the evidence I have seen shows that is NOT the case.


"It seems to me that "Christian-owned" is merely descriptive, especially considering that that could, depending on the hearer, be viewed as a positive *or* negative."

Yes. And if negative...why would a station opt to include it in the copy? Unless, there is some naivete about just how negative it can be viewed or just how positive it really proves to be?


Again...does adding this word produce results?

"As long as we're off on tangents, how about "Owner Joe Blow has information about his Christian approach to (nature of business) on his website..." as a way of handling these kinds of things?"

Well... outside of the legal discussion... I still am not seeing the necessity of "Christian approach" over "approach". In fact, some might find it more alluring to investigate for themselves what Joe's approach is when you elude to the fact that it might be different...but don't say why....just a thought. Plus... the whole legality thing.

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

> > It seems to me that "Christian-owned" is merely
> > descriptive, especially considering that that could,
> > depending on the hearer, be viewed as a positive *or*
> > negative.
>
> Yes. And if negative...why would a station opt to include it
> in the copy? Unless, there is some naivete about just how
> negative it can be viewed or just how positive it really
> proves to be?

'Cause the original question was about a Christian underwriter of a Christian station wanting its Christian audience to know that he's on the same team. In this case, I don't understand why this is so tough for you.



> "As long as we're off on tangents, how about "Owner Joe Blow
> has information about his Christian approach to (nature of
> business) on his website..." as a way of handling these
> kinds of things?"
>
> Well... outside of the legal discussion...

But that's what this thread is. To this point, having been nothing but a commercial guy, that's what I want to learn.



> I still am not
> seeing the necessity of "Christian approach" over
> "approach". In fact, some might find it more alluring to
> investigate for themselves what Joe's approach is when you
> elude to the fact that it might be different...but don't say
> why....just a thought.

Fine, but my understanding is that non-comm underwriting cannot specifically make the comparisons, including even saying that the underwriter's business is "different." I think I may have come up with a loophole, and that's what I want to find out about.

Is there something else really going on here? Is there some overabundance of Salem or something coming out? I really don't understand your...uh...passion about this. It's simply a Christian underwriter wanting to tell the Christian audience of a Christian non-comm station he's one of them! Simple! He wants to do it! The question is how to do it, not whether to do it!
 
Re: Why would you?

No....THIS trail of the thread (the tangent threads that stem from topic but aren't off topic) is about "Why would you?"

Which is the question I ask after the original topic was brought up about the description.

"Same team".

Now there is a good answer. I would have loved to have seen that one posted a while ago. It makes the most sense. Although it still presumes much regarding the listener, business, and expectation of the station....

"Is there something else really going on here? Is there some overabundance of Salem or something coming out? I really don't understand your...uh...passion about this. It's simply a Christian underwriter wanting to tell the Christian audience of a Christian non-comm station he's one of them! Simple! He wants to do it! The question is how to do it, not whether to do it!"

What has Salem radio have to do with this?

Nothing else going on...THIS trail of the thread asks "whether",not how, which is why the subject is "Why would you?".

The post asks for a valid reason and no one seems to be offering any valid reason to (although, I really like yours). And again, the discussion hopes to challenge some things done just because without really considering why. Which is what I like to do.

So there you go... passion.

But also, I (personally) don't prefer "labels" for "labels" sake...especially in this format...but to point...does it bring value at all?






<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

>It wasn't meant to be rude. The value added by using the description "Christian Owned" is that your Christian audience wants to deal with Christians and they know who is and who isn't. That is value right there.
 
Re: Why would you?

varedhead wrote:
"It wasn't meant to be rude. The value added by using the description "Christian Owned" is that your Christian audience wants to deal with Christians and they know who is and who isn't. That is value right there."

Ok. That is an answer.

I think it's still presumes an awful lot...among which:

1. That the audience is Christian.
2. That the audience wants to deal with Christians.

I'm assuming that stations that program this way have done some research though to know that their specific listeners or those they want to reach do desire this in the station's copy....and might even look for it.

I like hearing the "same team" answer because it makes some sense for the stations that program with an "us/them" mindset.

Whether or not the "us/them" mindset is valuable in and of itself would be another discussion.


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

There have been some very valid points raised so far in this thread. I tend to agree that (at least on the type of station I want to run in the future) it would be good to avoid any programming elements that might make the listener feel excluded.

However - setting aside the issue of *whether* to identify an underwriter as Christian, at least momentarily:
Would it be more relevant and FCC-friendly to say something like this?
"Acme Widgetworks supports the Christian mission of 88.8 The Message..." (the underwriter identification would go on to provide address, telephone, website)

*or* (a little less excluding, a little more seeker-friendly)
"Acme Widgetworks is proud to support the positive, encouraging music heard every hour here on The Message, 88.8 FM..."

In these examples, I'm applying the term "Christian" and any promotional language to the station itself, not the business. However, if a listener was able to make simple inferences, they might tend to think that there's a large chance Acme Widgetworks is a Christian business, if they support a Christian ministry, Christian mission, or even just music that is "positive and encouraging". That last bit might even create a better association in the mind of the listener, because as others have pointed out, Christian could mean many things to different people.
 
Re: Why would you?

> I think it's still presumes an awful lot...among which:
>
> 1. That the audience is Christian.
> 2. That the audience wants to deal with Christians.

The underwriter wants it. That was given.


> I'm assuming that stations that program this way have done
> some research though to know that their specific listeners
> or those they want to reach do desire this in the station's
> copy....and might even look for it.

Again, is this the Salem coming out? I'm hearing a rote recitation of "Salem." My understanding is that Salem is of the belief that they will maximize cume and tsl on their music stations by never identifying them as "Christian" and possibly excluding people. (Hence the generic "The Fish" and the dozens of remakes that, other than being semi-familiar to the general population, absolutely suck.) Is this philosophy the reason you keep banging this over and over despite being given that it's a Christian non-comm with an underwriter that *really wants* to say it?

You're always very reasonable, and, surely, you've experienced clients like this before. I find your passion very unusual.


> I like hearing the "same team" answer because it makes some
> sense for the stations that program with an "us/them"
> mindset.

Whoa, whoa! That is *not* what I meant by that!


I think this is the strangest thread I've seen on *any* board in my entire life!
 
Re: Why would you?

neutral observer wrote:
"Again, is this the Salem coming out? I'm hearing a rote recitation of "Salem." My understanding is that Salem is of the belief that they will maximize cume and tsl on their music stations by never identifying them as "Christian" and possibly excluding people. (Hence the generic "The Fish" and the dozens of remakes that, other than being semi-familiar to the general population, absolutely suck.) Is this philosophy the reason you keep banging this over and over despite being given that it's a Christian non-comm with an underwriter that *really wants* to say it?"

I'm not banging over and over. I started a trail to the thread on this point that opened with "This begs the question..." and opened up the discussion "Why would you".

Again, I have no idea what Salem has to do with this. But I will say... your post about them here is pretty... well...ignorant.


I'm not sure why this question is so hard for people to grasp? Or why because I'm defending my question, words like "passion" etc... are thrown out.

It's a question.

So far....here are the reasons it's done based on this trail of the thread:

1. Client wants it. Make client happy.
2. Show listeners client is on "same team" (which if not "us/them", what?)
3. Show listeners client is "one of us"

Those just don't strike me as compelling enough reasons to put the label "Christian" on something that isn't an individual. The word is being used in copy as an adjective, yet...it isn't really describing anything?

I think someone said it would be done because that word means other words like "integrity, etc"...but that word also means a thousand negative words to. And again integrity, etc.. is not exclusive to a "Christian".

So, based on that...as a descriptor...it kind of doesn't work in describing something.

We edit client copy all the time. We are selective on word choice for a variety of reasons. Sometimes, we are the ones writing the copy. I'm simply challenging a mindset that slaps on this label under the premise it somehow "sets them apart".

I will say this: Using "Christian" in front of "Talk" or "Station" works because it does describe the content and atmosphere. Adding it to copy to describe a business doesn't do that always...and either way...if words like "good" "bad" "best" etc... are not allowed...why this one?


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>
 
Re: Why would you?

"I think this is the strangest thread I've seen on *any*
> board in my entire life!"

I'll second that.
>
 
Re: Why would you?

"Would it be more relevant and FCC-friendly to say something
> like this?
> "Acme Widgetworks supports the Christian mission of 88.8 The
> Message..." (the underwriter identification would go on to
> provide address, telephone, website) *or* (a little less excluding, a little more
> seeker-friendly)
> "Acme Widgetworks is proud to support the positive,
> encouraging music heard every hour here on The Message, 88.8
> FM..."
>
An excellent way of writing and including the "Christian" description! I just threw out "Christian Owned" as a way to include it for the question that started this interesting subject. There are so many ways to be creative, describe the business and yet stay within the rules.
 
Re: Do you or would you? To everyone

Ok, here's a big one for you. Do you or would you, put on a spot for a client that DOES NOT represent your stations values? How would you deter them from underwriting with you or being a client?
Example: beer commercial on a Christian station (and I have heard them), or lottery info on your newsbreaks, or a business known for it's rotten reputation but pays really well.(car dealer etc,)and would you deal with an unscrupulous business if a Christian employee was involved. Experiences wanted!
 
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