unnecissary translators

[bobdavcav]

Posting this here at a suggestion on the thread I posted on the FCC Policy Debate board. What stations do you think have unnecisary translators? Here's my list,
KMTT 103.7 has a translator in downtown Seattle at 103.3 with the main 103.7 signal on Tiger Mountain. All this translator is good for is building penetration, KMTT does not have a signal any worse than any other station downtown. They also have one in Olympia at 104.1, which I don't understand either, since who is going to tune up the dial for only a few minutes while driving through?
KLVU has a translator at 107.3 in Eugene when its main signal at 107.1 is just as strong where the Global Tuners reciever is. Why is that even necisary?
KRCS licensed to Sturgis, SD has a translator in Rapid City at 104.7. However, when I was back there this summer, I couldn't find that translator through all the overload. So they're responding to overload with more overload? I'm also a little suspicious of the translator they run in Spearfish.
Also in Rapid City, KZZI 95.9 has a translator at 96.3, which from where I was staying, was just as strong as 95.9. Why have a translator when the main signal is just as strong?
Back to Eugene for a moment, KHPE has a translator at 96.9 that is just as strong as the main 107.9 coming from 40 miles away. Seriously do they need that translator?

 

[Kmagrill]

Signal strength may not have an effect on multipath. Especially in mountainous areas or downtown skyscrapers, a station may have lots of RF but still have problems. In those cases, a translator may help bring a useful signal to those areas.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

Superpower class B 92.3 WTTS Bloomington, IN had a translator in ... Bloomington until 2011 or so. They've since reassigned it to their AM station, WGCL. Of course, WTTS has its transmitter on the WTTV tower about 15 miles east of Bloomington.

 

[Chuck]

Signal strength may not have an effect on multipath. Especially in mountainous areas or downtown skyscrapers, a station may have lots of RF but still have problems. In those cases, a translator may help bring a useful signal to those areas.

You can also blame the FCC's translator rules, which are a patch-work quilt, at best. For the station in question to actually own the translator, it has to be contained within their current "service contour," which depending on the class of the originating station, varies from 54 dbu to the 60 dbu coverage area. Under most conditions that's still a quite workable signal on a car radio.

To have the translator located outside of the Service Contour, somebody else has to own it and get no financial support from the originating station. It is also supposed to receive the originating signal directly off the air. Such an arrangement isn't easy. Of course, there is the exception that if the originating station is in the reserved band, then the translator can be anywhere and get the signal through any means possible. K-LOVE comes to mind....

Then there are Translators for AM's which have still different rules. Don't forget the Boosters, which are on the same frequency as the originating FM station. Oh, the rules for all of these vary a bit depending on whether you are east or west of the Mississippi River. It's all enough to make your head hurt....

 

[bobdavcav]

Signal strength may not have an effect on multipath. Especially in mountainous areas or downtown skyscrapers, a station may have lots of RF but still have problems. In those cases, a translator may help bring a useful signal to those areas.

Yep, but in the case of KMTT, they really don't need it, unless other stations would fight hard to get their own translators downtown. The only station I can see needing a translator in this area is KUOW, which is heavily multipathed as I understand. Rapid City is an interesting case, as the towers ar far too close to the center of town, causing severe overload. Based on radio-locater's estimates from Eugene, it looks like they've got the same problem. So you're going to solve it by creating more of it? I don't mind boosters, though they don't seem to be used very much.

 

[Shiny Knob]

One assumption is wrong here. Most people listening to these translators aren't driving through. They live/work nearby.

In the case of KMTT, both translators make sense. The one in downtown Seattle fills in the hole in the downtown signal created by First Hill and Capitol Hill. Since the skyscrapers have a lot of metal in their windows, you need a lot of signal to get inside the building. And the KMTT translator is right there in the middle of it.

As for their Olympia translator, the KMTT 65 dBu signal cuts through Lacey. Olympia and Tumwater have less signal than that, and the west parts of Oly are just barely inside the 60 dBu. As Sr. Eduardo has pointed out here, there's a serious lack of listeners past the 65 dBu contour. So KMTT is really quite clever to have covered both the center of their coverage area where the signal has a lot of mulitpath, and the south end of both their coverage and the ARB market with not one, but two strategically placed translators.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

One assumption is wrong here. Most people listening to these translators aren't driving through. They live/work nearby.

True...I've heard W271BG's K-Love playing where I bank--even though the bank is outside of the 60dbu contour. Except for the 250W/unlimited HAAT translators, I can't imagine anyone listening in their car...unless they have a less than 7 mile commute that starts at one end of the 60 & ends at the other. Same general coverage/listening habits apply to LPFM's, but probably with even fewer listeners.

 

[Chuck]

Except for the 250W/unlimited HAAT translators, I can't imagine anyone listening in their car...unless they have a less than 7 mile commute that starts at one end of the 60 & ends at the other. Same general coverage/listening habits apply to LPFM's, but probably with even fewer listeners.

I believe that assumption depends a lot on the location of the translator. It is probably true in a hilly environment like Seattle or San Francisco, but maybe not in a fairly flat area. There used to be a translator in North Dallas that did an amazing job covering all of North Dallas, Irving, Richardson, Farmers Branch, Carrolton and several other suburban cities. I don't know if it is still there or not, but it was quite listenable in your car for many miles. I believe it was 250 watts at 400+ feet, which is pretty close to specs for a Class A FM. The one I'm thinking of belonged to Day Star Ministries, if I recall correctly. (It has been a while since I lived there.)

Of course, co-channel interference also has a lot of effect on the range of a translator. It depends who your nearby neighbors are. In some parts of the country, there is no co-channel problem and getting a 15 mile (or better) radius that is acceptable on a car radio, isn't a problem.

 

[ellenparks]

A thought, if a station maintains translators within it's 54 or 60 db contour then it precludes a competitor from using those frequencys for translators. Just like when one station buys another in the same market then lets that station languish just to prevent competition.

Everyone on here bemoans how poorly a station in a group of otherwise successfull stations does but did you ever think the poor performance might be on purpose?

 

[bobdavcav]

That's an interesting point about KMTT, but if that's the case, why hasn't CBS petitioned the owner of the 94.5 translator to put KMPS on it? Why has there not been even an atempt to put any translator for any station on 101.9, 102.1, 95.3 or any other Vancouver or empty frequencies around? It just doesn't make sense to me that KMTT would block an otherwise vacant frequency with the potential of hearing KKCW up here for a rebroadcast of a signal that isn't any weaker or more multipathed than any other main signal in downtown Seattle, especially given the recent ratings problems. The one in Olympia makes a bit more sense given how far out it is. I guess I could complain about the KCMS translators as well, but then, before long, I would probably start complaining about all but a few licensed translators. My question about the Astoria translator for KCMS is how many residents of Astoria would think to tune to even main Seattle frequencies? They do come in pretty well down there, but do they have a lot of listeners in that area? Another thing, why do they never mention that one?

 

[RadioMan203]

While several come to mind, how about those NPR affiliates that add translators to put signal where their main signal would never reach? I personally consider this abuse as like we need the dial littered with NPR satellators.

Then again, how about FMs using their HD signals to in essence get another station by re-transmitting their HD-2 or HD-3 programming on another analog channel?

I personally think both of these could very well fall into the unnecessary category.

 

[bobdavcav]

As I posted on the other thread about this, I think the HD thing is actually a clever use for a translator. As for the NPR thing, I thought that was mainly in areas where there wouldn't otherwise be a station carrying that programming?

 

[local oscillator]

Ellen, I agree with you. Translators that don't seem to make sense are likely preemptive or are being parked by ownership for future use as an AM repeater, HD repeater, or possibly a bargaining chip. In larger markets, a translator can easily be a six-figure asset. I know of a translator that was initially acquired as a preemptive move, but came in quite handy years later when an AM was added to the cluster.

 

[Kmagrill]

A thought, if a station maintains translators within it's 54 or 60 db contour then it precludes a competitor from using those frequencys for translators. Just like when one station buys another in the same market then lets that station languish just to prevent competition.

The reason that would not be a likely strategy is that translator channels are relatively easy to slip into most cities. It would take a lot of translators to fill up the spectrum in most places. Obviously there are exceptions, but generally, it would be hard to grab up all of the available channels without running afoul of the FCC's duplicate coverage rules.

Historically, commercial channel translators were not very highly thought of or valued. Except for the Calvary Chapel groups in 2003, demand hasn't been very high for them until the FCC allowed AM stations to use them. I suspect that most stations with pre-2003 translators either have a need or, at least believe that they do.

Recently, some groups have started taking translators seriously and, in at least one case that I have seen, used a commercial translator, rebroadcasting an HD2 channel, to knock another major group's 100kW station out of the top spot in its market. Now, that has people's attention. If translators continue to perform well against full powered competitors, there will be a lot of apps filed whenever the next window opens.

 

[Grounded Grid]

"My question about the Astoria translator for KCMS is how many residents of Astoria would think to tune to even main Seattle frequencies? They do come in pretty well down there, but do they have a lot of listeners in that area? Another thing, why do they never mention that one?"

If their translator has an FSK Ident chip in it, they aren't required to.

 

[RadioMan203]

As for the NPR thing, I thought that was mainly in areas where there wouldn't otherwise be a station carrying that programming?

I thought the original use for translators were to fill in portions of a main channel's predicted coverage area that due to terrain obstructions had inadequate signal? When I see translators carrying stations that would have never been available in a particular area this appears to be outright abuse if you ask me. What's ever worse is the FCC allows if without much thought.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

When I see translators carrying stations that would have never been available in a particular area this appears to be outright abuse if you ask me. What's ever worse is the FCC allows if without much thought.

You think the FCC should add a special exemption in the rules for translators below 92MHz? Oh, wait. Its been there since at least the '96 Act.

 

[bobdavcav]

"My question about the Astoria translator for KCMS is how many residents of Astoria would think to tune to even main Seattle frequencies? They do come in pretty well down there, but do they have a lot of listeners in that area? Another thing, why do they never mention that one?"

If their translator has an FSK Ident chip in it, they aren't required to.

Sorry but I'm no engineer. What's that? Does it automate the legal?

 

[TomT]

An FSK ID'er periodically frequency shift keys the translator ID in Morse. Can be heard on a radio with an AM detector, or, as a practical matter, on many cheap portables which use AM-like FM decoders.

 

[Grounded Grid]

An FSK ID'er periodically frequency shift keys the translator ID in Morse. Can be heard on a radio with an AM detector, or, as a practical matter, on many cheap portables which use AM-like FM decoders.

Just to add... The chip has an internal clock and does the ID once per hour (per rule).

Interesting comment about how you hear it. That's something I'll have to try.