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USING FMeXtra IN LOS ANGELES

D

dbdigital

Guest
Interesting item in the latest Bext CGC notice:

"Both KLVE & KSCA, Los Angeles, seem to be testing on-air
with FMeXtra, the digital sub-carrier scheme. Initial impressions
are very positive, the hardware is incredibly cheap and the system
is a good spectral neighbor. Too bad this technology was not
available five or so years ago."

If these stations are actually testing FMeXtra, I wonder if they've figured out a way for listeners to hear it, given the lack of available radios for this system?

http://www.bext.com/_CGC/2007/cgc793.htm

db
 
dbdigital said:
"Both KLVE & KSCA, Los Angeles, seem to be testing on-air
with FMeXtra, the digital sub-carrier scheme. Initial impressions
are very positive, the hardware is incredibly cheap and the system
is a good spectral neighbor. Too bad this technology was not
available five or so years ago."

If these stations are actually testing FMeXtra, I wonder if they've figured out a way for listeners to hear it, given the lack of available radios for this system?
Click to expand...

It is being considered as a replacement for SCA channels for both data and "subscriber-based" audio services, such as Radio Tehran on the KLVE SCA.

Both stations have HD on, with separate HD2 programming, as well. KTNQ, KRCD and KRCV in the same company have HD, too, although KTNQ is momentarily silent due to a major transmitter replacement and plant retrofit project.
 
Consider the range: SCA guru Lyle Henry displayed the FM Extra receivers in San Diego at a recent SBE meeting. With an outdoor FM yagi, he had a solid signal from KLVE at 111 miles, and accurate decoding of both 'streams'.
He was even able to pick the signal up mobile with a whip antenna near the meeting site. FM Extra now offers aac+ coding for even better fidelity at low bit rates. Pretty sharp stuff.
 
This should have been the HD system. It's not a closed inefficent expensive system. This is the perfect "we are digital" system for broadcasters.

But politics and special interests instead of common sense play rolls again.
 
The radios are available, just not in stores. You can get one (or as many as you want) through Bext in San Diego. This is a good system that as mentioned above is also compatible with IBOC.
 
Maybe it "should have been the HD system". But it wasn't. That ship has sailed. My hope is that dual-format radios will arrive, making it possible for even small market stations to afford digital radio. As I've said before, FMExtra is no longer a competitor. It's an ENHANCED service. No (FM) station "must" choose between...there's not a single good reason not to use both...IF there are readily available radios.
 
Mike Walker said:
Maybe it "should have been the HD system". But it wasn't. That ship has sailed. My hope is that dual-format radios will arrive, making it possible for even small market stations to afford digital radio. As I've said before, FMExtra is no longer a competitor. It's an ENHANCED service. No (FM) station "must" choose between...there's not a single good reason not to use both...IF there are readily available radios.
Click to expand...

The problem here is that the system that has less problems, is affordable and isn't a headache is the one that isn't chosen because it isn't backed by big money and politics. Broadcasters misstep again. The ship hasn't sailed yet. There is still time to get this right, but people like you refuse to see the problems with the "popular" system and realize where the industry is really headed.
 
I was under the impression that with FMExtra, if there's multipath interference on the main channel, the subcarriers would have it too. If that's the case, what is the advantage of having improved fidelity accompanied by multipath? That sounds like FMX.
 
wgliradio said:
The problem here is that the system that has less problems, is affordable and isn't a headache is the one that isn't chosen because it isn't backed by big money and politics. Broadcasters misstep again. The ship hasn't sailed yet. There is still time to get this right, but people like you refuse to see the problems with the "popular" system and realize where the industry is really headed.
Click to expand...

Look, this is like Fishing above Niagra Falls. After you lose power and go over the edge of the falls it's not time to say "We Shoulda fished somewhere else". It's time to learn how to fly. If you think like an Eagle this is easy. If you think like a fish you better swim hard against the falls to live. If you're a bear you better evolve or you're going to die. Over simplified? Yep. Accurate? Not totally. But the point is, no matter what everyone thinks... this is where we are.

Here's how "I" see it.

HD ISN'T going away. It might fade, but if we believe the "anti" side, it will kill radio first. I don't necessarily agree, but let's accept that as a premise. If so then you need to "Adapt or Die." Simple right? Then there's the audience.

If you're a listener "Radio as a whole is 'under construction'" First came the freeway, then they messed up the mall. Now it's radio.

CinnabonDX is no longer going to be reachable by using the shuttle. We are hoping to get Cinnabon in the local food court on the Third floor. (You can get this) We know you'll like the new "Radio". And it'll be here soon...

All of radio is in the big airplane. We're cruising at 10,000 ft. You can either test the parachute technology or ride the plane down. Did I mention you can't disengage the autopilot and you only have about 5 years of fuel left???

(Yes Radiopilot I know there are some of us who could land the plane, but remember the autopilot is stuck in the "ON" position.) :)

Griping, Pissing and moaning about where we are will NOT help. 1,314 of your close and personal station neighbors have already bought in. If I take the "Anti" side, they're already moving into your neighborhood. Bad news? In the brave new world...You have no DX listeners. Good news? You're not LOSING those DX listeners to your "DX competitor". HD is not going away soon. And there may not be a lot left for any of us if it does.

I'm not trying to be ugly, just real. We're here. No amount of wishing we we're there will help.

No pronouncing death will help.

As a Eureka 147 believer, I have to move on.

I guess some just want to give the last rights. I say the numbers and the $$$ show differently. "Hey pass me that Paraglider will ya, mac???"

Clouseau
 
Amen Clouseau. Eureka 147 would've been great. The US military wouldn't allow the use of those frequencies. We moved on. Other systems were proposed, and either died, or were absorbed into Ibiquity's system. We moved on. FMExtra had a chance. HD was widely accepted. We moved on.

Besides FMExtra is FM EXTRA! The FCC mandated a system for FM AND AM! People who tout it's (FMExtra) virtues seem to forget that little factoid!

Technologies have come and gone. If I could turn back time, of course there are some things I would change. I can't. Neither can you. What can we do? MOVE ON!
 
Mike Walker said:
Amen Clouseau. Eureka 147 would've been great. The US military wouldn't allow the use of those frequencies. We moved on. Other systems were proposed, and either died, or were absorbed into Ibiquity's system. We moved on. FMExtra had a chance. HD was widely accepted. We moved on.

Besides FMExtra is FM EXTRA! The FCC mandated a system for FM AND AM! People who tout it's (FMExtra) virtues seem to forget that little factoid!

Technologies have come and gone. If I could turn back time, of course there are some things I would change. I can't. Neither can you. What can we do? MOVE ON!
Click to expand...

Sounds like the AM stereo crowd some time back 'move on', FACT is yes HD is now a standard for digital radio, SO WHAT if consumers are not accepting this standard. By the time they become fully aware of HD, they would have embraced internet radio, WIFI based radio or satelite radio.

You can't deny that fact when there are AM/FM HD radios existing in the market for several years for cars and NOW car rental companies are installing WIFI based radios... why aren't they installing HD radios?

Why isn't every car manufactured in the US with HD radios? Hint= NO CONSUMER ACCEPTANCE!

Whine all you want about HD radio... it's smoke in the wind while other technologies kick terrestrial radio in the rear!

Radiopilot
 
radiopilot said:
Why isn't every car manufactured in the US with HD radios? Hint= NO CONSUMER ACCEPTANCE!

Whine all you want about HD radio... it's smoke in the wind while other technologies kick terrestrial radio in the rear!

Radiopilot
Click to expand...

C'mon, RP. HD was approved as a standard a couple of months ago. They released the actual rules a couple of DAYS ago. And they're not going into effect for at least another month.

The Anti group loves to tout that HD radio has been available since 2004. They leave out that radios we're $599 and if you bought one you don't get the Multicasting we enjoy today.

Give it a little time.

Clouseau.
 
The Pro HD group had no problem touting the alleged improvement in sales of units from 2004 until ... well, until just a few months ago... when it was all "new" again.
 
Semoochie~

"I was under the impression that with FMExtra, if there's multipath interference on the main channel, the subcarriers would have it too. If that's the case, what is the advantage of having improved fidelity accompanied by multipath? That sounds like FMX."

I would almost think that by necessity FMX must have some form of error-correction code muxed into the digital signal as well. FMX doesn't use a redundancy error correction scheme like Ibiquity's system does (In my opinion, that's probably the only advantage Ibiquity actually has over FM Extra) so I would think that it would have to implement a system like FEC (Forward Error Correction, like most if not all digital satellite broadcasts use) or some form of Reed Solomon code. SCA channels can at times be incredibly noisy communication carriers so I can't imagine how a competent engineer could ever leave something like this out.

Or does FMX already have ECC and am I merely reporting what has already been established?



All I do know for certain is that when listening to Washington's "Evergreen Radio Reading Service" via the 67 kHz SCA of 91.1 KPBX from Spokane,WA on a Sony ICF36 in a moving truck driving along Interstate-84 it comes in crystal clear, for an analogue SCA channel anyways, between about Arlington and the far western side of Pendleton, OR. ("far western side of Pendleton"--no pun intended!! ;o)

So figure that to be about 80 miles or so as the highway runs. And in between those points (I think about Umatilla area or so) Spokane lies about 70 miles or so Northeast (more or less.) In some parts of Pendleton it is incredibly difficult to receive because the town is mostly built in a valley, while most of that side of OR/WA is flat highland terrain.......*very* conducive to some good FM DXing!

Although due to the wider bandwidth of FMX (something like 60-100kHz if I remember correctly) it might not suffer the dropout/crosstalk problem as badly as a narrow-band analogue SCA channel like ERRS. Have to wait and see I guess.
 
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