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Utica CBS Affiliation
- Thread starter VOMan
- Start date
> Post deleted by admin: spam
I don't know what the posting said before it was deleted but I do have some information on why there is not a CBS affliate in Utica.
Orignially in the late 1940's and early 50's everyone in the area assumed that WIBX radio would take out a TV license being the dominate radio station and a long time CBS radio affilate. They were suppose to take out Ch 4. The folks at WKTV believed it so they applied and got ch 13 (later dropped down to Ch 2)..
I guess the Bowen family (that owned WIBX) either couldn't raise the money or just weren't interested in television so they never applied for the license. They had, also, just spent a lot of money upgrading WIBX, moving it from 1230 to 950 and going 5,000 watts. WKTV did air a lot of CBS programming before becoming a primary NBC affilate in the late 50's. No one ever did apply for ch 4 and the FCC later withdrew it from the market. When Park Broadcasting put WUTR on the air in 1970 they tried to get CBS affiliation but were turned down even though Park was very rich and owned several very successful CBS stations in some important markets. WTVH in Syracuse had moved to ch. 5 from 8 and sent a very strong signal into Oneida County and did everything they could to block WUTR becoming CBS. So WUTR eneded up ABC. Also, at the time CBS was not affliating with any UHF stations. I doubt that Utica will ever get another chance of having a local CBS station.
>
I don't know what the posting said before it was deleted but I do have some information on why there is not a CBS affliate in Utica.
Orignially in the late 1940's and early 50's everyone in the area assumed that WIBX radio would take out a TV license being the dominate radio station and a long time CBS radio affilate. They were suppose to take out Ch 4. The folks at WKTV believed it so they applied and got ch 13 (later dropped down to Ch 2)..
I guess the Bowen family (that owned WIBX) either couldn't raise the money or just weren't interested in television so they never applied for the license. They had, also, just spent a lot of money upgrading WIBX, moving it from 1230 to 950 and going 5,000 watts. WKTV did air a lot of CBS programming before becoming a primary NBC affilate in the late 50's. No one ever did apply for ch 4 and the FCC later withdrew it from the market. When Park Broadcasting put WUTR on the air in 1970 they tried to get CBS affiliation but were turned down even though Park was very rich and owned several very successful CBS stations in some important markets. WTVH in Syracuse had moved to ch. 5 from 8 and sent a very strong signal into Oneida County and did everything they could to block WUTR becoming CBS. So WUTR eneded up ABC. Also, at the time CBS was not affliating with any UHF stations. I doubt that Utica will ever get another chance of having a local CBS station.
>
B
Bob1370
Guest
Nominally, the Channel 4 allocation for Utica is still on the books, although the FCC isn't accepting any new CP applications for full power stations in any market until the digital TV situation sorts itself out. (A Rochester UHF allocation, Channel 61, is on hold for the same reason.) If it ever is built, it'd probably locate its transmitter in the high hills east of town very close to WKTV's current site.
Given Utica's less than dynamic growth pattern lately, it's an open question as to whether anyone would spend the millions necessary to build a new full power VHF station. Would the market have enough revenue to support it?
Given Utica's less than dynamic growth pattern lately, it's an open question as to whether anyone would spend the millions necessary to build a new full power VHF station. Would the market have enough revenue to support it?
M
Media_Man
Guest
> Nominally, the Channel 4 allocation for Utica is still on
> the books, although the FCC isn't accepting any new CP
> applications for full power stations in any market until the
> digital TV situation sorts itself out. (A Rochester UHF
> allocation, Channel 61, is on hold for the same reason.) If
> it ever is built, it'd probably locate its transmitter in
> the high hills east of town very close to WKTV's current
> site.
>
> Given Utica's less than dynamic growth pattern lately, it's
> an open question as to whether anyone would spend the
> millions necessary to build a new full power VHF station.
> Would the market have enough revenue to support it?
>
It would probably be owned by one of the companies that currently owns a tv station in the market presently. Since Nextstar currently has three stations (a fourth would be too much), I think who ever owns channel 2 might be a candidate.
> the books, although the FCC isn't accepting any new CP
> applications for full power stations in any market until the
> digital TV situation sorts itself out. (A Rochester UHF
> allocation, Channel 61, is on hold for the same reason.) If
> it ever is built, it'd probably locate its transmitter in
> the high hills east of town very close to WKTV's current
> site.
>
> Given Utica's less than dynamic growth pattern lately, it's
> an open question as to whether anyone would spend the
> millions necessary to build a new full power VHF station.
> Would the market have enough revenue to support it?
>
It would probably be owned by one of the companies that currently owns a tv station in the market presently. Since Nextstar currently has three stations (a fourth would be too much), I think who ever owns channel 2 might be a candidate.
> It would probably be owned by one of the companies that
> currently owns a tv station in the market presently. Since
> Nextstar currently has three stations (a fourth would be
> too much), I think who ever owns channel 2 might be a
> candidate.
Even though the credits on WKTV's newscasts say "Smith Media LLC," the parent owner is a group of investors called Boston Ventures.
While adding a CBS affiliate could help WKTV level out the playing field (one real station and one cable station against three stations), I was one told that WTVH's contract with CBS guarantees it exclusivity throughout both the Syracuse and Utica markets.
Even if someone wanted to pony up the cash to build a brand new TV station (or if WUTR or WKTV wanted to convert to CBS), it would practically take an act of Congress to snatch the affiliation rights away from WTVH.
I'm sure a similar history explains why there was (and probably will) never be an NBC affiliate in Watertown. Channel 7 got there first as a CBS affiliate. I don't know if any other VHF's were ever allocated, but the next station to come along: channel 50. If NBC didn't want any UHF affiliates at the time either, then ABC wins another one by default. And like Utica... it's a small market, probably not worth the investment to build a new station... and even if someone did, WSTM probably wouldn't be interested in giving up the NBC affiliation rights for that territory.
> currently owns a tv station in the market presently. Since
> Nextstar currently has three stations (a fourth would be
> too much), I think who ever owns channel 2 might be a
> candidate.
Even though the credits on WKTV's newscasts say "Smith Media LLC," the parent owner is a group of investors called Boston Ventures.
While adding a CBS affiliate could help WKTV level out the playing field (one real station and one cable station against three stations), I was one told that WTVH's contract with CBS guarantees it exclusivity throughout both the Syracuse and Utica markets.
Even if someone wanted to pony up the cash to build a brand new TV station (or if WUTR or WKTV wanted to convert to CBS), it would practically take an act of Congress to snatch the affiliation rights away from WTVH.
I'm sure a similar history explains why there was (and probably will) never be an NBC affiliate in Watertown. Channel 7 got there first as a CBS affiliate. I don't know if any other VHF's were ever allocated, but the next station to come along: channel 50. If NBC didn't want any UHF affiliates at the time either, then ABC wins another one by default. And like Utica... it's a small market, probably not worth the investment to build a new station... and even if someone did, WSTM probably wouldn't be interested in giving up the NBC affiliation rights for that territory.
B
Bob1370
Guest
> I was one told that WTVH's contract
> with CBS guarantees it exclusivity throughout both the
> Syracuse and Utica markets.
I don't think that's actually the case...the network has always held most of the high cards in any affiliation agreement, and if anything that's even more true now than it was decades ago when the Central NY TV landscape took shape. I once worked for WTVH's former radio sister station, WHEN, when both were headquartered in the Channel 5 building at 980 James St....Channel 5 had no special claim to the Utica market, just wound up as the closest CBS affiliate (45 air miles from the Sentinel Heights tower to downtown Utica) pretty much by default.
> Even if someone wanted to pony up the cash to build a brand
> new TV station (or if WUTR or WKTV wanted to convert to
> CBS), it would practically take an act of Congress to snatch
> the affiliation rights away from WTVH.
Again, the affiliation rights would only cover the Syracuse ADI which doesn't include Oneida County.
> I'm sure a similar history explains why there was (and
> probably will) never be an NBC affiliate in Watertown.
> Channel 7 got there first as a CBS affiliate. I don't know
> if any other VHF's were ever allocated, but the next station
> to come along: channel 50.
Watertown had no TV allocations at all until the 1952 re-writing of the TV allocation table. The FCC divided up station allocations in '52 based on a combination of technical issues and market size, and made several mistakes (most notably giving Rochester, Syracuse and Albany too few stations) that it had to correct by reshuffling the deck and changing the allocation table in markets along the Thruway between Buffalo and the Hudson River. Utica and Watertown didn't pick up any more allocations in the shuffle, though when they rewrote the table in 1958, WKTV in Utica had to move from 13 to 2, and WROC in Rochester and WHEN in Syracuse to do a straight channel swap (5 to 8 in Rochester, 8 to 5 in Syracuse), to allow Rochester and Syracuse to get an additional VHF station each and Albany/Schenectady/Troy to get two more Vs, all of which were on the air by the fall of 1962.
The lack of a presence of one or more networks in a small market is almost always a function of no one spending the money to build an affiliate, rather than the network's reluctance or lack of interest.
> with CBS guarantees it exclusivity throughout both the
> Syracuse and Utica markets.
I don't think that's actually the case...the network has always held most of the high cards in any affiliation agreement, and if anything that's even more true now than it was decades ago when the Central NY TV landscape took shape. I once worked for WTVH's former radio sister station, WHEN, when both were headquartered in the Channel 5 building at 980 James St....Channel 5 had no special claim to the Utica market, just wound up as the closest CBS affiliate (45 air miles from the Sentinel Heights tower to downtown Utica) pretty much by default.
> Even if someone wanted to pony up the cash to build a brand
> new TV station (or if WUTR or WKTV wanted to convert to
> CBS), it would practically take an act of Congress to snatch
> the affiliation rights away from WTVH.
Again, the affiliation rights would only cover the Syracuse ADI which doesn't include Oneida County.
> I'm sure a similar history explains why there was (and
> probably will) never be an NBC affiliate in Watertown.
> Channel 7 got there first as a CBS affiliate. I don't know
> if any other VHF's were ever allocated, but the next station
> to come along: channel 50.
Watertown had no TV allocations at all until the 1952 re-writing of the TV allocation table. The FCC divided up station allocations in '52 based on a combination of technical issues and market size, and made several mistakes (most notably giving Rochester, Syracuse and Albany too few stations) that it had to correct by reshuffling the deck and changing the allocation table in markets along the Thruway between Buffalo and the Hudson River. Utica and Watertown didn't pick up any more allocations in the shuffle, though when they rewrote the table in 1958, WKTV in Utica had to move from 13 to 2, and WROC in Rochester and WHEN in Syracuse to do a straight channel swap (5 to 8 in Rochester, 8 to 5 in Syracuse), to allow Rochester and Syracuse to get an additional VHF station each and Albany/Schenectady/Troy to get two more Vs, all of which were on the air by the fall of 1962.
The lack of a presence of one or more networks in a small market is almost always a function of no one spending the money to build an affiliate, rather than the network's reluctance or lack of interest.
> Watertown had no TV allocations at all until the 1952
> re-writing of the TV allocation table. The FCC divided up
> station allocations in '52 based on a combination of
> technical issues and market size, and made several mistakes
> (most notably giving Rochester, Syracuse and Albany too few
> stations) that it had to correct by reshuffling the deck and
> changing the allocation table in markets along the Thruway
> between Buffalo and the Hudson River. Utica and Watertown
> didn't pick up any more allocations in the shuffle, though
> when they rewrote the table in 1958, WKTV in Utica had to
> move from 13 to 2, and WROC in Rochester and WHEN in
> Syracuse to do a straight channel swap (5 to 8 in Rochester,
> 8 to 5 in Syracuse), to allow Rochester and Syracuse to get
> an additional VHF station each and Albany/Schenectady/Troy
> to get two more Vs, all of which were on the air by the fall
> of 1962.
----------
Was this also the reason CBLT in Toronto got Channel 6 in 1959?<P ID="signature">______________
From WNBC-TV New York this is Liiiiive at Fiiiiive!</P>
> re-writing of the TV allocation table. The FCC divided up
> station allocations in '52 based on a combination of
> technical issues and market size, and made several mistakes
> (most notably giving Rochester, Syracuse and Albany too few
> stations) that it had to correct by reshuffling the deck and
> changing the allocation table in markets along the Thruway
> between Buffalo and the Hudson River. Utica and Watertown
> didn't pick up any more allocations in the shuffle, though
> when they rewrote the table in 1958, WKTV in Utica had to
> move from 13 to 2, and WROC in Rochester and WHEN in
> Syracuse to do a straight channel swap (5 to 8 in Rochester,
> 8 to 5 in Syracuse), to allow Rochester and Syracuse to get
> an additional VHF station each and Albany/Schenectady/Troy
> to get two more Vs, all of which were on the air by the fall
> of 1962.
----------
Was this also the reason CBLT in Toronto got Channel 6 in 1959?<P ID="signature">______________
From WNBC-TV New York this is Liiiiive at Fiiiiive!</P>
Well in these days of if it doesn't make money it doesn't make sense. Building an entire broadcast facility to serve an already fading market would be insane.
Simple fact is why spend money on making a CBS affiliate in Utica when one station, who by pure habit owns the rights to it.
Same goes for Watertown, why would anyone spend money on making a NBC affiliate when most people already watch WSTM. And as far as Rights to it, NO, when WWTI was bought by the former company Smith Broadcasting of Watertown LP. The idea of switching to NBC was discussed, But smartly dropped due to there being no reason to fight for viewership. Even though they already do with WSYR.
Even at that any real broadcaster these days isn't fighting for new network affiliation, they're fighting for what comes after the networks go to streaming and don't need them.
Simple fact is why spend money on making a CBS affiliate in Utica when one station, who by pure habit owns the rights to it.
Same goes for Watertown, why would anyone spend money on making a NBC affiliate when most people already watch WSTM. And as far as Rights to it, NO, when WWTI was bought by the former company Smith Broadcasting of Watertown LP. The idea of switching to NBC was discussed, But smartly dropped due to there being no reason to fight for viewership. Even though they already do with WSYR.
Even at that any real broadcaster these days isn't fighting for new network affiliation, they're fighting for what comes after the networks go to streaming and don't need them.
> Was [the Syracuse / Rochester channel swaps] also the reason CBLT
> in Toronto got Channel 6 in 1959?
>
I don't think so -- in 1952, CBLT signed on on channel 9. In 1959, they moved to ch.6. But two years later, a new station in Toronto, CFTO, would sign on on ch.9, where they still are today. Since CBLT and CFTO are in the same city, I don't think Syracuse or Rochester had anything to do with it.
Of course, these swaps may have made CBLT's other swap possible -- in 1972, CBLT moved from ch.6 to ch.5, in order to move ch.6 in Paris to start up Global (which started in 1974). If Syracuse and Rochester didn't swap chs. 5 and 8 several years later, that wouldn't have been possible.
> in Toronto got Channel 6 in 1959?
>
I don't think so -- in 1952, CBLT signed on on channel 9. In 1959, they moved to ch.6. But two years later, a new station in Toronto, CFTO, would sign on on ch.9, where they still are today. Since CBLT and CFTO are in the same city, I don't think Syracuse or Rochester had anything to do with it.
Of course, these swaps may have made CBLT's other swap possible -- in 1972, CBLT moved from ch.6 to ch.5, in order to move ch.6 in Paris to start up Global (which started in 1974). If Syracuse and Rochester didn't swap chs. 5 and 8 several years later, that wouldn't have been possible.
B
Bob1370
Guest
> ----------
> Was this also the reason CBLT in Toronto got Channel 6 in
> 1959?
>
That was a separate issue entirely. The Board of Broadcast Governors (predecessor to the CRTC) decided to allocate a second English language channel to a lot of markets including Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa (not to mention all the other major Canadian markets), ending CBC's monopoly in those cities. CBC got its choice as to which channel it wanted. It could stay on its original one (Channel 9) and jack up its power from 26 to 325 kW, or take the new assignment, Channel 6, which would give the same expanded coverage with 100 kW ERP. CBC opted for the lower channel. That left Channel 9 to the new private commercial venture, CFTO, which formed the nucleus of the second national network, CTV. They signed on the last day of 1960.
CBC later moved again to Channel 5 to make room to create a third English language network, first throughout Ontario and then across Canada. Global needed Channel 6 for coverage of central Ontario, and got it, while CBC moved one last time to Channel 5 and up to the CN Tower, where they run a mildly directional 84 kW at over 1500 feet above average terrain (they run full strength except in a mild directional notch to the southeast over Lake Ontario which protects the coverage curve of WTVH in Syracuse).
None of these moves was affected by changes in the upstate NY allocation table in 1958-59, although in a way they owed something to the earlier 1952 FCC reallocation of the TV band which moved Rochester off Channel 6 for good and left it open for Canada's eventual use.
> Was this also the reason CBLT in Toronto got Channel 6 in
> 1959?
>
That was a separate issue entirely. The Board of Broadcast Governors (predecessor to the CRTC) decided to allocate a second English language channel to a lot of markets including Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa (not to mention all the other major Canadian markets), ending CBC's monopoly in those cities. CBC got its choice as to which channel it wanted. It could stay on its original one (Channel 9) and jack up its power from 26 to 325 kW, or take the new assignment, Channel 6, which would give the same expanded coverage with 100 kW ERP. CBC opted for the lower channel. That left Channel 9 to the new private commercial venture, CFTO, which formed the nucleus of the second national network, CTV. They signed on the last day of 1960.
CBC later moved again to Channel 5 to make room to create a third English language network, first throughout Ontario and then across Canada. Global needed Channel 6 for coverage of central Ontario, and got it, while CBC moved one last time to Channel 5 and up to the CN Tower, where they run a mildly directional 84 kW at over 1500 feet above average terrain (they run full strength except in a mild directional notch to the southeast over Lake Ontario which protects the coverage curve of WTVH in Syracuse).
None of these moves was affected by changes in the upstate NY allocation table in 1958-59, although in a way they owed something to the earlier 1952 FCC reallocation of the TV band which moved Rochester off Channel 6 for good and left it open for Canada's eventual use.
> None of these moves was affected by changes in the upstate
> NY allocation table in 1958-59, although in a way they owed
> something to the earlier 1952 FCC reallocation of the TV
> band which moved Rochester off Channel 6 for good and left
> it open for Canada's eventual use.
-----------
Didn't someplace near Jamestown, New York also use Channel 6 as a rebroadcaster of WGR-TV very early on in its life?<P ID="signature">______________
From WNBC-TV New York this is Liiiiive at Fiiiiive!</P>
> NY allocation table in 1958-59, although in a way they owed
> something to the earlier 1952 FCC reallocation of the TV
> band which moved Rochester off Channel 6 for good and left
> it open for Canada's eventual use.
-----------
Didn't someplace near Jamestown, New York also use Channel 6 as a rebroadcaster of WGR-TV very early on in its life?<P ID="signature">______________
From WNBC-TV New York this is Liiiiive at Fiiiiive!</P>
> The lack of a presence of one or more networks in a small
> market is almost always a function of no one spending the
> money to build an affiliate, rather than the network's
> reluctance or lack of interest.
Then why did WFXV go with the then-fledgling Fox network, instead of the much more well-established CBS? Seems like WFXV has been a straggler for years and years as a Fox affiliate... when it could have probably gotten off the ground and become more profitable much faster as CBS station.
> market is almost always a function of no one spending the
> money to build an affiliate, rather than the network's
> reluctance or lack of interest.
Then why did WFXV go with the then-fledgling Fox network, instead of the much more well-established CBS? Seems like WFXV has been a straggler for years and years as a Fox affiliate... when it could have probably gotten off the ground and become more profitable much faster as CBS station.
A
alw2juv
Guest
> > The lack of a presence of one or more networks in a small
> > market is almost always a function of no one spending the
> > money to build an affiliate, rather than the network's
> > reluctance or lack of interest.
>
> Then why did WFXV go with the then-fledgling Fox network,
> instead of the much more well-established CBS? Seems like
> WFXV has been a straggler for years and years as a Fox
> affiliate... when it could have probably gotten off the
> ground and become more profitable much faster as CBS
> station.
>
Earlier posts have pointed out a few facts; CBS already has good coverage in Utica-Rome area from WTVH-Syracuse. When Ch 33 signed on in the late 80's their signal was weak and barely covered Utica/Rome. Others have said CBS likely was not interested in new UHF affiliates, especially one with such a weak signal.
> > market is almost always a function of no one spending the
> > money to build an affiliate, rather than the network's
> > reluctance or lack of interest.
>
> Then why did WFXV go with the then-fledgling Fox network,
> instead of the much more well-established CBS? Seems like
> WFXV has been a straggler for years and years as a Fox
> affiliate... when it could have probably gotten off the
> ground and become more profitable much faster as CBS
> station.
>
Earlier posts have pointed out a few facts; CBS already has good coverage in Utica-Rome area from WTVH-Syracuse. When Ch 33 signed on in the late 80's their signal was weak and barely covered Utica/Rome. Others have said CBS likely was not interested in new UHF affiliates, especially one with such a weak signal.
B
Bob1370
Guest
> Didn't someplace near Jamestown, New York also use Channel 6
> as a rebroadcaster of WGR-TV very early on in its life?
>
That was a low power repeater (0.1 kW, IIRC) that Channel 2 used back around 1957-62 to get into Chautaqua County before it built its current transmitter site in South Wales. The old Barton Street tower only got them 500 feet HAAT for their main Channel 2 signal, while the current site, using the same ERP (100 kW) is at 1000 feet above terrain and boosts range considerably in all directions. Combined with high cable penetration, the current setup made the Channel 6 repeater in Jamestown far less necessary, and they closed it down a good 30 years ago.
> as a rebroadcaster of WGR-TV very early on in its life?
>
That was a low power repeater (0.1 kW, IIRC) that Channel 2 used back around 1957-62 to get into Chautaqua County before it built its current transmitter site in South Wales. The old Barton Street tower only got them 500 feet HAAT for their main Channel 2 signal, while the current site, using the same ERP (100 kW) is at 1000 feet above terrain and boosts range considerably in all directions. Combined with high cable penetration, the current setup made the Channel 6 repeater in Jamestown far less necessary, and they closed it down a good 30 years ago.
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