VALLEY RADIO NEEDS AN OVERHAUL ASAP!! - Nevermind, I've given up

[davideduardo]

So what about the African-Americans who live in the valley who want to hear newer R&B and not just Hip-hop? Where does that leave them? They are consumers as well, don't you think they should have a station that caters as least partially to them? Not saying that is all African-Americans (like myself) listen to. I do like other forms of music. But David, I feel as if you are dismissing them as a population in the valley. I realize PHX isn't Atlanta, Dallas, or Chicago, but I do think radio corporations are overlooking/underestimating our buying power in the valley. Why can't the valley have a Smooth AC station (with a slight Urban lean) that caters to blacks as well as the mainstream listening audience? Like 94.7, the Wave in Los Angeles. I think it could work and would make decent money. You just have to have the commitment behind the format.

If there was an opportunity to make money with an urban AC format, and with all the rimshot and limited facilities in the market, there is no reason why not to consider doing so.

However, with just 190,000 African American persons 12+ and the natural assumption that not all would listen to an urban AC format, we are likely left with perhaps a real cume of 80,000, give or take (and understanding that Urban AC has nearly no non-Black listening). Even assuming a longer than average TSL due to the uniqueness of the format, that would rank such a station around 30th or below.

A bit safer bet would be to do a modified Urban like KRRL in LA, but that is straight ahead urban / r&b / hip hop with a strong secondary appeal to Hispanics. There, you suddenly have the 5% Black plus over 30% Hispanic population. But, unlike LA which has a huge later generation Hispanic population, Phoenix has a much higher percentage of first generation Hispanics who, for all practical purposes, will not listen to r&b.

So at that point, you have to consider that nobody will put a full signal into this kind of low potential format. And using a rimshot may reduce the coverage of the higher density Black neighborhoods, so the full potential of a format won't be realized because not everyone can hear it.

It's all about economics and the ability to make money. If a specifically targeted African American station were viable, I would think that one of the existing marginal facilities would have tried it. Look to other markets that have low percentages of African Americans, such as San Antonio (6.6%) and you can see that efforts to do such a format in some form have either failed (as in the case of SAT) or not been tried or are even on a non-commercial station (Austin).

 

[davideduardo]

Actually sirius has more than one Top 40 station. I should know, I have Sirius. I understand the competition thing. But what I am saying is, there are only so many listeners in the market for that format. You really only need two CHR's, NOT FOUR. All of those stations playing the exact same thing aren't going to make huge profits, a couple of them are going to suffer financially. If your company truly wanted to make money, you look for a format hole that ISN'T being served. Comparing that to fast food chains really isn't a fair comparison. You have to physically get to that business to support it, whereas with radio you don't.

The stations you mention are actually two CHRs and one double-signal simulcast Hot AC. If you look at BDS or MediaBase, you can see that there are enough differences between the AC and the two CHRs to make a strong distinction.

If you look at the billing, all of them (including the other Hot AC which is a market leader (top 3 or 4 in billing) bill very well. There is no reason to change any of them for a format that does not now exist because it's really likely that it does not exist because it is not viable.

 

[Prescott Joe]

This is all very interesting. If a station runs an ad for XYZ company for a period
of time. I listen to the station that has that spot but do not need what they offer at
that time. Six months or even a year later, I need what XYZ has to offer and I remember
that ad on Radio station Q. Is that accounted for in any way????

 

[davideduardo]

This is all very interesting. If a station runs an ad for XYZ company for a period
of time. I listen to the station that has that spot but do not need what they offer at
that time. Six months or even a year later, I need what XYZ has to offer and I remember
that ad on Radio station Q. Is that accounted for in any way????

Of course it is.

Going way back to W.W. II, radio stations use a sales pitch that said "when the war is over, will you be forgotten". The idea was to get companies, even when there were shortages, to keep their brands alive so they would be top of mind after the war. In Canada, this was even more pronounced, with the trade magazine "Canadian Broadcaster" running many station ads insisting that companies maintain their advertising through the war.

Skipping ahead, I'm not and have never been in the market for a pickup truck. But were I to suddenly need one, the brand with the most effective advertising would get me into the showroom... Similarly, when I am not looking for a new car, I am processing the ads for cars I might like to check out in the future. In fact, I have a mental "short list" of the ones I'd like to test drive in a year or two. All this is based on advertising, even if I was not in the market.

A good example of "when you're ready" advertising is the BMW series of generic "Ultimate Driving Machine" ads that promote the whole line of cars as being worth consideration.

 

[landtuna]

Skipping ahead, I'm not and have never been in the market for a pickup truck. But were I to suddenly need one, the brand with the most effective advertising would get me into the showroom.

And here is where you and I would go our separate ways. I pay little attention to vehicle ads now since I just bought my brand new car 3 years ago and they change so much that by the time I am ready to buy another today's advertising will be almost moot. Instead, I will look up reviews from Consumer Reports, Car and Driver and other reliable sources to see what best fits my desires and only then would I pay attention to radio or TV ads or visit dealers.

Note that I didn't mention Motor Trend in my sources. There is a reason.

 

[KP]

[/QUOTE] I mean, heck, KDKB still plays so much 80's and 90's it sounds like it's run by KOOL interns -- if I wanted to hear 80's/90's, I'd listen to KOOL. And quite often do, as a matter of fact, over KDKB.[/QUOTE]

indieradioguy, I think you're a little confused about the new KDKB. They're alt now, and they play nothing from the 80s...

 

[indieradioguy]

I mean, heck, KDKB still plays so much 80's and 90's it sounds like it's run by KOOL interns -- if I wanted to hear 80's/90's, I'd listen to KOOL. And quite often do, as a matter of fact, over KDKB.[/QUOTE]

indieradioguy, I think you're a little confused about the new KDKB. They're alt now, and they play nothing from the 80s...[/QUOTE]

Ok, not confused, just mistaken. I just reviewed the live stream. No 80's that I can substantiate. However, there is still way too much 90's, and there's no reason whatsoever any "alt" radio in 2016 should still be playing Nirvana in regular rotation. Most of their demo wasn't even born yet in the 90's. I don't ever remember pre-flip KDKB sounding so much like KOOL.

 

[DJ_Perry]

Actually KOOL just barely started playing very select 90s cuts. Maybe 2 an hour and they surely wouldn't be in the Alt world. More like Ace of Base, Sheryl Crow, Blues Traveler. No version of KDKB compares to KOOL's sound today or even before

 

[indieradioguy]

Actually KOOL just barely started playing very select 90s cuts. Maybe 2 an hour and they surely wouldn't be in the Alt world. More like Ace of Base, Sheryl Crow, Blues Traveler. No version of KDKB compares to KOOL's sound today or even before

I heard Violent Femmes' "Blister In The Sun" -- from 1983 -- on KDKB browsing the dial today. Blister In The (Bleep) Sun. An entire generation of kids and most of KDKB's demo weren't even born yet. So, yes, while they don't much 80's as they do 90's, the nostalgia factor is a huge turn-off for me. How many more times do we need to hear "Wonderwall" by Oasis? You don't hear KMLE playing the Oak Ridge Boys and Garth Brooks and Alabama and other 80's/90's-era country -- I can't recall the last time I even heard Garth Brooks on KMLE since it's all Eric Church and Cassadee Pope and Dierks Bentley lately. Why can't KDKB program their music like KMLE? Would that be too much to ask?

 

[DJ_Perry]

I heard Violent Femmes' "Blister In The Sun" -- from 1983 -- on KDKB browsing the dial today.

Probably because the majority would stick around for that song, its an Alternative staple. Even as many times as I have heard it, I would much rather hear that over most of the new stuff. Even prefer it over much of the 90s / 2K wuss rock like Creed or Nickelwack junk

 

[TheBigA]

Why can't KDKB program their music like KMLE? Would that be too much to ask?

Different companies. Different formats. Lots of reasons.

In some markets, alternative stations need to add some gold to attract a broader audience. Obviously not a problem in country.

 

[azfmfan]

I've always accepted hearing 90's on an alternative station, but there's 16 years of music after that to be played. All the stations I am familiar with play a few 90's tracks an hour. Are there any fm alternatives that only play 2000-2016 music? I would be interested to see how a station on fm would do if it sounded like alt nation on Sirius/Xm. It seems like if your target is 18-34, that leaning towards newer music would help your ratings.

 

[TheBigA]

All the stations I am familiar with play a few 90's tracks an hour.

I agree. The problem with this genre is the shortage of heritage consensus acts that you can build a format around. We see that millennials have an appreciation for heritage. So it usually works, in terms of incorporating some familiar music in a format without many major superstars.

 

[indieradioguy]

I agree. The problem with this genre is the shortage of heritage consensus acts that you can build a format around. We see that millennials have an appreciation for heritage. So it usually works, in terms of incorporating some familiar music in a format without many major superstars.

"Heritage consensus acts"? You're joking, right? KMLE listeners get a much higher proportion of newer *new* music (nothing from the 80's/90's) whereas post-flip KDKB listeners get routinely get sedated with mothballs like "Semi Charmed Life" -- an overplayed 90's track that belongs on KOOL. The problem is KDKB relegates too many acts to 'one-hit wonder' status -- I'm pretty sure there aren't any millenials who clamor to hear "Creep" anymore. And as for "heritage consensus acts," there's no reason whatsoever that "Wonderwall" is the only Oasis song that KDKB can be bothered to play -- Oasis has had, what, six or seven albums -- all of them 'not-a-bad-track-on-it' good -- and yet they're still pegged as a 'one-hit wonder' on KDKB? And Hubbard expects KDKB to be a worthy successor to the old 103.9?

 

[indieradioguy]

I've always accepted hearing 90's on an alternative station, but there's 16 years of music after that to be played. All the stations I am familiar with play a few 90's tracks an hour. Are there any fm alternatives that only play 2000-2016 music? I would be interested to see how a station on fm would do if it sounded like alt nation on Sirius/Xm. It seems like if your target is 18-34, that leaning towards newer music would help your ratings.

If Sirius/XM played as much 90's filler (and the handful of 80's tracks from before most of their demo was even born) as KDKB does, nobody would have Sirius/XM. They would go back to the auto dealer and demand it be removed from their vehicle.

 

[TheBigA]

"Heritage consensus acts"? You're joking, right? KMLE listeners get a much higher proportion of newer *new* music

You realize country is a very different format from alternative rock, right? You're speaking in a completely different language.

If Sirius/XM played as much 90's filler (and the handful of 80's tracks from before most of their demo was even born) as KDKB does, nobody would have Sirius/XM. They would go back to the auto dealer and demand it be removed from their vehicle.

How much do you pay to hear KDKB? They're not comparable. If you personally paid for KDKB, they'd play what you want.

 

[indieradioguy]

You realize country is a very different format from alternative rock, right? You're speaking in a completely different language.

Yes and no. Yes, they are completely different formats insofar as the genre of music. No, insofar as they are both COMMERCIAL formats often delivering the same overlapping COMMERCIALS to overlapping demos and there's nothing "completely different language" about that. The only "completely different language" in my comments is that alternative is inexplicably given a free pass to play old music (up to 20-30 years old in same cases) whereas the COMMERCIAL expectation for CHR, for urban/hip-hop, for country and every other comparable "NEW" music format, is that they predominantly play "NEW" music that currently charts in trade pubs like Billboard. So, what you're essentially saying is: alternative is to only "NEW" music format where business needs dictate advertisers necessarily pay for 90's tracks that would be more at home on KOOL or KSLX. Why the double standard? You don't see KISS-FM playing 90's. You don't see KMLE playing 90's.

 

[TheBigA]

So, what you're essentially saying is: alternative is to only "NEW" music format where business needs dictate advertisers necessarily pay for 90's tracks that would be more at home on KOOL or KSLX. Why the double standard?

Who says alternative has to only be new music? When was that rule instituted?

CHR and country can attract a sellable audience by playing mainly new music. Apparently, alternative can't, at least in Phoenix.

If that's what it takes to attract a sellable audience, so be it.

But I'm not convinced that they play songs that would be "more at home on KOOL or KSLX," and several other posters here have said so.

 

[johndavis]

While it is ironic (don't ya think) that a format that was born on playing new music in the 90's now stubbornly refuses to let go of its gold titles, such is alternative radio. The Gen-Xers who remember those songs give them 25-54 numbers, the 18-34's don't seem to mind the gold, modern AC is dead, and Classic Rock remains afraid to play Nirvana and STP next to the Stones and Zep so alternative has those titles to itself.

Reba released "Fancy" and Garth released "The Thunder Rolls" in 1991, and I still hear country stations playing both in their gold category, so don't tell me that country doesn't play 90s tracks. KMLE, now hanging its hat on Bro Country might not go there, but KNIX will. But even some of the CBS stations that went full-on Bro Country started playing gold again after they got their asses kicked.

 

[b-turner]

You seem to be saying KDKB chooses to not fit the mold of the pure format. Why would that be? All we can assume is it is working as it is at this point. Maybe a competitor might come along. If nothing else, at least KDKB is not cookie cutter but a hybrid. They might not claim that but image themselves as something they are not compared to other examples of the format. There was a point when some top 40 stations, a format that was purely current material, started playing up to 60% non-current music. Then again, there were a few top 40 stations and each was jockeying for a certain segment of top 40 listeners. Some stations, not many, played songs that were 15 or more years old. At that point top 40 was reflecting one of the music trends where some music was not as universal in appeal.

I contend the station, while not to your liking, is probably doing the right thing, producing the right audience that gets them the buys because they reach the right people. I suspect they don't care how 'Alternative' they are or not. For them, they could care less how well they do or don't fit the mold as long as they're on the buy sheet.

The complaint I hear in my market is the Alternative station is 1 to 3 years behind all the other stations. They play some older stuff too...not a bunch but some. Still they are consistently near the top every time. So far no competitor has shown up even though they're sure not cutting edge. Let's say they reflect proven trends versus creating or instigating them.