Variety Hits/Classic Hits always fails in SF

[Fastphilly]

Going through these boards (especially the 70s,80s,90s format section) ppl rave about how good the Jack-Fm stations are in many markets around the country....I myself have never listened to a Jack-FM station so I'm assuming it mirriors the old MAX-FM that we had here? The reason I ask this, is it seems that every station that has tried to base their programming around 70s and 80s top 40 music seems to die out in the Arbitron ratings......Now growing up here my entire life I can attest that we had Top 40/CHR consistantly in the region up until the mid 80's (KFRC,KITS,KMEL) and then again in 1988/1989 with (KHIT,KXXX) so why do ppl in this market seem to shy away from these VH/CH stations? Yes, I know that in the late 80's the dominant station here (18-34 demo) was KMEL which would never touch a current song that resembled Rock/POP, but the majority of those years (70's/80's) we were treated to CHR, and I'm shocked that a format like Jack/KFRC is'nt paying dividends..

Your thoughts?

 

[LKellerIII]

Fast Philly: It seems like you're mixing up formats that play older music (Oldies, classic hits, 80s)) with the stations that played current hits back in the 70s and 80s. There were a lot of current hit stations here until the late 80s- KYUU was another one you didn't mention. For some reason, they stopped working in this market by the 90s - and I leave it up to experts to speculate why. I've read speculation on this board that straight Top 40 doesn't work here because there are so many stations here with some version of a current hits format - KMEL, Wild, Live 105, Alice, and Star 101.3. Even KOIT plays current soft hits. So a straight top 40 station would be carving up just another tiny slice of the pie. Also, straight Top 40 supposedly caters to a younger demographic (teenagers, I guess) than those other stations, which tap into a young adult audience with more disposable income than teens.

Max-FM was basically a "Jack" station, but I believe that name is copyrighted by CBS. Bonneville owned Max, and probably didn't want to pay CBS royalties for the Jack brand. If I remember correctly, CBS threatened a lawsuit against Bonneville at one point because their slogan "We play what we want" was so close to the Jack slogan "we play what we feel like." Or maybe I have that backward. ???

In any case, the Jack format doesn't work in all markets. It's a top billing station in LA, but it was a big flop in New York. Go figure...

 

[Fastphilly]

Fast Philly: It seems like you're mixing up formats that play older music (Oldies, classic hits, 80s)) with the stations that played current hits back in the 70s and 80s. There were a lot of current hit stations here until the late 80s- KYUU was another one you didn't mention. For some reason, they stopped working in this market by the 90s - and I leave it up to experts to speculate why. I've read speculation on this board that straight Top 40 doesn't work here because there are so many stations here with some version of a current hits format - KMEL, Wild, Live 105, Alice, and Star 101.3. Even KOIT plays current soft hits. So a straight top 40 station would be carving up just another tiny slice of the pie. Also, straight Top 40 supposedly caters to a younger demographic (teenagers, I guess) than those other stations, which tap into a young adult audience with more disposable income than teens.

Max-FM was basically a "Jack" station, but I believe that name is copyrighted by CBS. Bonneville owned Max, and probably didn't want to pay CBS royalties for the Jack brand. If I remember correctly, CBS threatened a lawsuit against Bonneville at one point because their slogan "We play what we want" was so close to the Jack slogan "we play what we feel like." Or maybe I have that backward. ???

In any case, the Jack format doesn't work in all markets. It's a top billing station in LA, but it was a big flop in New York. Go figure...

I heard the reason why it flopped in New York is because they blew up a legendary oldies station (WCBS) and many folks were pissed off about it. That goes beyond loyalty IMO, If a station sucks (I'm assuming that the ratings were dismal) even if the calls are legendary, So friggin' what..And to use that as an exuse for a Jack failure is a lame-a$$ exuse..

 

[DavidKaye]

Your thoughts?

In the 1970s and 80s, stations such as KFRC were not playing music from the 1930s and 40s because people wouldn't have listened to them. And yet you're wondering why people in the 00s are not interested in listening to music from the 60s and 70s. Hello? Hello?

And as for older people, songs from the 60s and into the 80s have been played to death. We hear so much more music today than in the past. Even the ATM room at my local bank has music playing when I take out money at 3:00am! I was at Noah's bagels the other day. Continuous music there. I was in an elevator in an apartment building where I heard the BeeGees doing "Jive Talkin". Heck, even elevator music isn't elevator music anymore. It's oldies!

 

[Fastphilly]

Your thoughts?

In the 1970s and 80s, stations such as KFRC were not playing music from the 1930s and 40s because people wouldn't have listened to them. And yet you're wondering why people in the 00s are not interested in listening to music from the 60s and 70s. Hello? Hello?

And as for older people, songs from the 60s and into the 80s have been played to death. We hear so much more music today than in the past. Even the ATM room at my local bank has music playing when I take out money at 3:00am! I was at Noah's bagels the other day. Continuous music there. I was in an elevator in an apartment building where I heard the BeeGees doing "Jive Talkin". Heck, even elevator music isn't elevator music anymore. It's oldies!

I do agree that 60's/70's mainstream music has been played to death over the years, but I strongly disagree about mainstream 80's hits....I could care less what some piped music is playing at a bank ATM/restaurant/elevator/supermarket....The fact of the matter is, I have yet to hear a 80's formatted station (sprinkled with late 70's and early 90's) that has been introduced in the Bay Area...And please don't mention MAX_FM, a station that had little monetary support from Bonneville. Furthermore, I should'nt have to switch to KISQ to hear "Somebodys Watching Me" by Rockwell, switch to KIOI to hear "Livin' On A Prayer" by Bon Jovi, switch to KOIT to hear "All I Need Is A Miracle" by Mike And The Mechanics, switch to KFRC to hear "Keep On Loving You" by REO Speedwagon, switch to KMVQ to hear "Point Of No Return" by Expose, switch to 98.5 The Fox to hear "Jump" by Van Halen....Get my point....These niche formats are diluting music that was once played by CHR that the MAJORITY of listeners (12-30 yrs old) had on...Many great songs during that ERA have been left out because it does'nt fit their "niche"....I'M TIRED OF IT!!!

Here's a few examples:
Puttin On The Ritz-Taco
Gloria-Laura Branigan
Electric Avenue-Eddy Grant
Rock Me Amadeus-falco


Need I say More...

 

[landtuna]

In the 1970s and 80s, stations such as KFRC were not playing music from the 1930s and 40s because people wouldn't have listened to them. And yet you're wondering why people in the 00s are not interested in listening to music from the 60s and 70s. Hello? Hello?

My generation was the first youth generation literally raised on radio where the music played an intregal part of our culture. My parents had radios of course but they were generally huge and could only be listened to in a fixed location. Listening to the radio was not permitted in most businesses in their day and, if so, was only of the Muzak variety.

For whatever reason(s) the 50's, 60's and 70's produced the most varied, complex and relevant music in history. Music wasn't a byproduct of the culture, it WAS the culture. That is why people my age still listen to the music of those eras even though a lot of us also like easy listening (Martin, Clooney, Sinatra etc.), Swing, Big Band and Jazz.

As Edwardo has pointed out many times in this forum it isn't the music that is dying, it is that advertisers don't target 55+ so stations wanting to max their revenue don't play to this crowd. It might interesting for me to point out that at my 30th and 40th high school reunions the music selected by popular demand was late 50's thru early 70's. The music was popular then and will remain so until my generation is gone. Whether it is a viable commercial product is a completely different discussion.

And as for older people, songs from the 60s and into the 80s have been played to death.

As one of those "older people" let me just say that the music you reference hasn't been overplayed. Certain songs have definately been overplayed primarily because of the "niche format" stations. I suspect, Edwardo aside, a station in a major metro area would do very well if they had a representative library spanning these three decades and a varied rotation.

Of course, the station would also need to revert back, at least somewhat, to broadcasting practices of our day. Us "oldsters" won't listen to hucksters loudly pitching endless car commercials or DJ's without personalities.





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[LouP]

Keep in mind that Max FM was dumped when Entercom took control of the 95.7 signal via an LMA with the station swap that took place with former Max FM owner Bonneville. So, while the format didn't last, I'd suggest that the change in ownership had as much as anything to do with Max FM's demise.

 

[Fastphilly]

Keep in mind that Max FM was dumped when Entercom took control of the 95.7 signal via an LMA with the station swap that took place with former Max FM owner Bonneville. So, while the format didn't last, I'd suggest that the change in ownership had as much as anything to do with Max FM's demise.

MAX-FM was already in the rating toilet before Entercom took it over...

 

[LouP]

MAX-FM was already in the rating toilet before Entercom took it over...

The station's ratings obviously weren't strong enough for it to last at that level for much longer, but I suspect that the Entercom takeover helped to speed that along. At the same time, that signal didn't have lasting success with CHR, Classic Hits, Country (as The Bear), or Variety/Adult Hits, with several flips within a five year span.

Had Jack FM made it on in San Fran (which I've heard almost happened but Bonneville beat Infinity to the punch by mere hours, if you believe the whispers), perhaps the results would have been different. Or maybe not -- we'll never know.

 

[Fastphilly]

Maybe its a good thing Jack did'nt infiltrate SF...From what I have heard in many markets, they tend to morph into a classic mainsteam rock hits format.....

 

[LKellerIII]

"The station's ratings obviously weren't strong enough for it to last at that level for much longer, but I suspect that the Entercom takeover helped to speed that along."/i]

Bonneville believed in Max, and kept it on the air for significant period of time. Ratings didn't improve, so they tried live jocks, that didn't work, so they fired the jocks and went back to the clever John O'Hurley liners, and that still didn't help. If the ratings had been decent, Entercom probably would have stuck with it. There was a lot of speculation that they'd dump Classical on KDFC, but they didn't, because KDFC gets good ratings...which if anything, have improved lately.

Entercom didn't mess with KOIT at all.

 

[alexh1013]

"The station's ratings obviously weren't strong enough for it to last at that level for much longer, but I suspect that the Entercom takeover helped to speed that along."/i]

Bonneville believed in Max, and kept it on the air for significant period of time. Ratings didn't improve, so they tried live jocks, that didn't work, so they fired the jocks and went back to the clever John O'Hurley liners, and that still didn't help. If the ratings had been decent, Entercom probably would have stuck with it. There was a lot of speculation that they'd dump Classical on KDFC, but they didn't, because KDFC gets good ratings...which if anything, have improved lately.

Entercom didn't mess with KOIT at all.

1260 KOIT switched to Catholic Radio.

They should kept Max! Who actually listens to 95.7 The Wolf?

 

[LKellerIII]

"They should kept Max! Who actually listens to 95.7 The Wolf?"

I'm not sure how they do with the coveted 25-49 demo, but in the 12+ ratings, The Wolf gets higher ratings than Max.

 

[Fastphilly]

"They should kept Max! Who actually listens to 95.7 The Wolf?"

I'm not sure how they do with the coveted 25-49 demo, but in the 12+ ratings, The Wolf gets higher ratings than Max.

Country with a 2+ in San Fran? Say it is'nt so..lol
Not bad for a format that gets ripped on these boards..Having a high energy approach, really carries that station along...I remember hearing Jo-Jo Kincaid on there, don't know if he's still around..

 

[alexh1013]

turn KKDV or KKIQ or any of those stations in the 925 to Country and bring back Z or Max to 95.7!

 

[1069_KIFR]

Yes, JoJo Kincaid is still on The Wolf. Weekdays 3-7pm.

 

[DavidKaye]

For whatever reason(s) the 50's, 60's and 70's produced the most varied, complex and relevant music in history.

Maybe, maybe not. While we're not hearing anti-war protest songs in the current mix of music, I don't necessarily agree that the music was more complex in ye olden days than now. Most of the music pre-Beatles (1955 to 1964) uses variations on the 1-6m-4-5 chord structure (in C that would be C, A-minor, F, G). (Ricky Nelson's "Poor Little Fool" from 1958 has the identical chords of "Double Shot of My Baby's Love" from 1966.) With the Beatles, American rock music changed to a more ordinary 1-4-5-1 structure. Also, the tempos, while originally variations on be-bop and Western swing tempos, became mostly fairly sedate 4/4 times.

I'm very pleased to hear Turkish dance music, and Indian rap, for instance. The music has become much more worldly. One of the more notable bands touring these days is Rupa & The April Fishes. Rupa, though she's an American from San Francisco, sings mostly in French. And people LOVE it. Back in ye olden days, a popular Japanese song that made it to America had to be renamed "Sukiyaki" because the promoters were afraid that Americans wouldn't like foreign names, and at least they'd heard of sukiyaki before. The real title was "Ue O Muite Arukō" or translated "I Look Up When I Walk". THAT is how xenophobic American music was in those days.

 

[kenrayc]

I live in the San Joquin Valley, I get KFJK 105.9 (jack FM ) from Fresno. They are a Combination of Classic Rock (Bon Jovi,Van Halen,Rush,&Motley crue)with New wave(Psycedelic furs,The Cure,Depeche Mode, ultravox,B52's,Dream Academy,&Duran Duran,Mixed with Mainstream (Huey Lewis,Hall&Oats, Blondie,&Taco.)AND 90's (REM,Goo Goo dolls,Mellisa Etherage,RHCP,Colective Soul,&Soul Asylem.) Some 00s(The Killers,3 doors down & Hinder. They are ranked #16 with a 12+ of2.1, and dont do as well as The classic rock station
95.7 the fox,Activerock KRZR 103.7,Alice 96.7,or Alternative 104.1 KFRR.

 

[kenrayc]

I made a mistake JACK-FM 105.9 did better than KFRR 104.1.

 

[kenrayc]

also its "we play what we want".