Very bad start for HD

[spectacle]

I'm sorry if I have to be honest, but so far when looking for hd radios to buy, EVERY ONE of the reviews has a severe negative for every model I could find on Amazon.

AM HD can't even get off the ground without a riot somewhere.

By the way, the compression/bit rate/resulting sound quality for AM FM HD is LOWER than Sirius or XM? Is that true?

I bought on HD radio last year and returned it a week later. The adjustability was poor and the reception was almost impossible.

What exactly is going to be done about these problems?

Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?

 

[Savage]

It could ONLY happen when the topic of discussion is "HD Radio:" "Sorry if I have to be honest...."

Why can't HD Radio be "durable and effective?" Because there is a small cadre of self-interested elites populating Big Group Radio, iBiquity and the NAB who have "influenced" (draw whatever inference you wish there) a corrupt and incompetent regulators to force a fatally-flawed product on the marketplace.

Which is resoundingly rejecting it.

The IBOC elites, as they wallow in unjustifiable self-congratulation, have ignored two factors beyond their control: (a) they can't unilaterally revise the laws of physics - without first consulting God; (b) the public has massive, inestimable disinterest in HD Radio.

 

[R.F. Burns]

"I'm sorry if I have to be honest, but so far when looking for hd radios to buy, EVERY ONE of the reviews has a severe negative for every model I could find on Amazon."


What reviews, those of people who claim to be HD users? Its rigged. You have some people who for reasons of their own HATE HD radio. It's beyond silly, it's childish but sadly there are people like that. Don't go by Amazon reviews, those are opinions and so are worthless. Here are some real valid reviews;

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/

"AM HD can't even get off the ground without a riot somewhere."


The only rioting going on are those few people who frequent boards like this to complain. The anger expressed by the great masses of radio listeners towards the HD radio on AM and FM has been nothing but a whisper, if that. The average person hasn't expressed any problem since HD radio has been licensed for 24 hour service.


"By the way, the compression/bit rate/resulting sound quality for AM FM HD is LOWER than Sirius or XM? Is that true?"

No it is not. On FM The bit rate for HD can be as high as 96 Kbs. The best XM bit rate is 64 Kbs and the AAC based codec is much more effeciant then the codec used by either satcaster. The AM codec at 32 Kbs still sounds much better than most of the material transmitted by either XM or Sirius.

"I bought on HD radio last year and returned it a week later. The adjustability was poor and the reception was almost impossible."

Where do you live? How far are you from any of the HD broadcasters you are trying to receive? I live 25 miles from the NYC FM HD transmitters and receive them all with a dipole lying on my bedroom floor. On boards like this you hear from people who live 75 or 100 miles from a transmitter and can barely receive the analog signal but can't understand why the HD isn't as robust. many are either too young or don't remember what FM radio was like in the early 1960's.


"What exactly is going to be done about these problems?"

On FM There's talk about raing the sideband power levels which would increase coverage.


"Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?"

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population. Cell coverage isn't robust enough to be taken seriously as a replacement for over the air broadcasting. HD radio technology is really only just begining, no matter what some might say. It's growing by leaps and bounds. Here in NY there's talk of 8 new HD FM's on the horizon. Sony has new radios coming on the market in the near future and there's talk of a low power consumptiuon Samsung chip coming out. That doesn't sound like a failing technology to me.

 

[Play Freebird]

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population. Cell coverage isn't robust enough to be taken seriously as a replacement for over the air broadcasting. HD radio technology is really only just begining, no matter what some might say. It's growing by leaps and bounds. Here in NY there's talk of 8 new HD FM's on the horizon. Sony has new radios coming on the market in the near future and there's talk of a low power consumptiuon Samsung chip coming out. That doesn't sound like a failing technology to me.

Try 82 percent, as of last November:

http://www.gearlog.com/2007/11/us_cellphone_penetration_tops.php

Concerning the question of "robustness", the big advantage of a cellular system is that low power fill-in stations can be added to the network as needed to solve terrain blockage, market growth and other coverage problems.

However, HD Radio is based on the traditional broadcast model of "one site", which has many limitations unless you're fortunate enough to be located in an area of flat terrain where stations run lots of power -- for example, Florida or eastern Texas.

In Philadelphia, which doesn't really have rough terrain, there are problems decoding some FM HD signals while driving less than 4 miles from the transmitter site.

 

[kyscott]

The only rioting going on are those few people who frequent boards like this to complain. The anger expressed by the great masses of radio listeners towards the HD radio on AM and FM has been nothing but a whisper, if that. The average person hasn't expressed any problem since HD radio has been licensed for 24 hour service.

That's because nobody is listening to it, nobody gives a crap about "HD" radio. They are too busy listening to their iPods. There is no demand for HD radio. There is no demand for HD receivers. HD radio is a flop. The people that are running HD radio broadcasts can't run an analog station much less several HD streams.
People are comparing HD radio with HDTV. With HDTV there is something to be gained by upgrading to an HDTV set, an awesome picture. There is nothing to be gained by upgrading to an HD radio. A properly set up processor will not differ that much when it blends with the HD signal. Ibiquity is trying to force this square peg into a round hole and it's not working.

 

[rconrad]

HD will not go anywhere until the digital coverage is the same as the analog. WCLV was an HD pioneer. We spent a lot of money installing HD and became the second station in the Cleveland area to offer it. We had been led to believe the digital coverage would go to the limit of the analog. However, we found that HD coverage is about 60% of the analog, and even close in to the transmittter, you need an antenna. So while we are continuing to run the HD 1, we are not even contemplating adding an HD2 and are not promoting it until the coverage situation is resolved. And then we'll let others try it out, and we see how it works,

Robert Conrad
President
WCLV, Cleveland

 

[R.F. Burns]

HD will not go anywhere until the digital coverage is the same as the analog. WCLV was an HD pioneer. We spent a lot of money installing HD and became the second station in the Cleveland area to offer it. We had been led to believe the digital coverage would go to the limit of the analog. However, we found that HD coverage is about 60% of the analog, and even close in to the transmittter, you need an antenna. So while we are continuing to run the HD 1, we are not even contemplating adding an HD2 and are not promoting it until the coverage situation is resolved. And then we'll let others try it out, and we see how it works,

Robert Conrad
President
WCLV, Cleveland

I'm very well aware of your HD findings. I can tell you that with my attic mounted TV antenna attached to my Sangean HDT 1 & HDT 1X tuners I am able top easily decode all HD channnels from WAWZ, located in Zaraphath, NJ. Zaraphath is about 60 miles southwest of my receive location. I can also decode WAWZ on my bedside Receptor with its attached dipole antenna, although antenna positioning is more critical using only a dipole antenna. I live in a NYC suburb approx 25 miles north west of Manhattan and I have no problem with any of the NY HD stations. I've read that there are markets where greater sideband power is being used to expand HD coverage. As you are well aware there is constant experimentation taking place now that the system is operating in the real world. Some of the calculated figures need to be tweaked to better reflect real world operations. Receivers are getting better as are processing techniques. My only real issue with HD at this point is the fact that HD transmissions will go down for hours or even days. This is a problem for the typical listener who isn't interested in excuses.

 

[Savage]

As has been discussed here before, the prospective tenfold increase in HD-FM digital carrier power is nothing more than another not-very-meaningful band-aid being applied to the stumbling HD Radio system. More on this in a moment.

The first radios were unworkable, deaf, half-baked products, most of which were returned as "defective." What was the HD Cartel's response? "The first radios sucked, but the new ones will be much better!" BA and Radio Shack have beat a retreat. The selection of available products is miniscule and shrinking.

When HD-AM at night rolled out, Cartel boosters nastily and publicly mocked the large body of engineering opinion against the notion as "naysayers" who were predicting "Armageddon" which would "never materialize." No Armageddon occurred, but only because a tiny minority of operating AMs chose to deploy the buzzsaw after dark. And even with less than 2 percent of AMs running HD post-sunset the results have been disastrous.

Now the latest serial HD lies have swirled about FM: first, the Cartel denied that digital coverage was worse than analog. (See Mr. Conrad's post.) Now, in an apparent reversal of that evident falsehood, HD is announcing that digital coverage problem will be "fixed" by the simple, easy expedient of having FM stations tear down and rebuild entire transmitting plants in order to accomodate the increased carrier power.

Given prevalent economic conditions in the radio industry and the abysmal acceptance level for HD so far, don't look for many stations to climb further out on the HD-FM limb. And even for those who do, there wait serious technical problems: more adjacent-channel interference and self-interference, increased noise floor for analog listeners who comprise virtually all the existing audience.

 

[radiopilot]

HD will not go anywhere until the digital coverage is the same as the analog. WCLV was an HD pioneer. We spent a lot of money installing HD and became the second station in the Cleveland area to offer it. We had been led to believe the digital coverage would go to the limit of the analog. However, we found that HD coverage is about 60% of the analog, and even close in to the transmittter, you need an antenna. So while we are continuing to run the HD 1, we are not even contemplating adding an HD2 and are not promoting it until the coverage situation is resolved. And then we'll let others try it out, and we see how it works,

Robert Conrad
President
WCLV, Cleveland

Robert

Knowing now what you know about this IBOC system and it's limitations I pose a question:

Would you have installed this IBOC system knowing full well you would be losing 40% of your listener base?

Assuming that it replaced your analog for complete digital signal you would be losing 40% of your listeners, I'm sure your management would be in a uproar over this.

How many listeners do you actually believe you have listening to HD radio?

Thanks,

Radiopilot

 

[Play Freebird]

I can't help but laugh at a news piece NAB just released.

Regarding a failed FCC test of a prototype personal-portable device, NAB spokesman Dennis Wharton remarked, "In baseball, it's three strikes and you're out," said Wharton. "How many strikes does Microsoft get? If they can't get the device to work in the lab, how are they going to get it to work in the real world?" Full text:

http://www.nab.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=News_Room&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=11956

Now, let's see... How many "strikes" does IBOC have by now?

 

[vsa]

"Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?"

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population.

You are such a fountainhead of misinformation. Totally out of touch! No wonder you think HD radio has a "future." Let me help YOU out here Mr. Burns.

According to the CTIA wireless association, an amazing 250-million Americans are now subscribers to some sort of cell phone plan. That's a massive 82.4 percent of the U.S. population. And these are last year's figures!

http://www.switched.com/2007/11/14/82-of-americans-own-cell-phones/

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I'm very well aware of your HD findings. I can tell you that with my attic mounted TV antenna attached to my Sangean HDT 1 & HDT 1X tuners I am able top easily decode all HD channnels from WAWZ, located in Zaraphath, NJ. Zaraphath is about 60 miles southwest of my receive location.

That is a good data point. I have 50 miles with a dipole using the 1X. Can you get 60 miles with a dipole?

When and if I'm able to meet another 1X owner outside of Houston, I'll be able to experiment at 85 miles away. The farthest I've heard of for HD is 100 miles, with an outdoor antenna.

The point is - these are very good numbers. I don't see the need for a power increase. Houston FM off of 2000 foot sticks is in bad shape at 120 miles, and yet by 100 is it pretty strong. If HD numbers are in the 50 to 60 mile range, that would cover the majority of most metro areas. Those outside in the 50 to 100 mile range are used to outdoor antennas anyway - and it sounds like a mounting body of evidence that HD is possible to those distances. So what would an FM power increase accompish?

How does AM do at that distance? I'm using large box loops and barely get locals in the daytime HD. 10 to 30 mile type of stuff. With the supplied 4 inch loop - no reliable lock even on stations less than 10 miles away. Really scary to me - to think of a tenfold power increase on those sidebands. Ten times louder? They are already considerably louder than analog as it is.

 

[R.F. Burns]

"Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?"

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population.

You are such a fountainhead of misinformation. Totally out of touch! No wonder you think HD radio has a "future." Let me help YOU out here Mr. Burns.

According to the CTIA wireless association, an amazing 250-million Americans are now subscribers to some sort of cell phone plan. That's a massive 82.4 percent of the U.S. population. And these are last year's figures!

http://www.switched.com/2007/11/14/82-of-americans-own-cell-phones/

And you sir are rude. Your belief that a cell phone will replace radio is equivelent to my saying that toaster ovens will replace the real thing.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I'm very well aware of your HD findings. I can tell you that with my attic mounted TV antenna attached to my Sangean HDT 1 & HDT 1X tuners I am able top easily decode all HD channnels from WAWZ, located in Zaraphath, NJ. Zaraphath is about 60 miles southwest of my receive location.

That is a good data point. I have 50 miles with a dipole using the 1X. Can you get 60 miles with a dipole?

When and if I'm able to meet another 1X owner outside of Houston, I'll be able to experiment at 85 miles away. The farthest I've heard of for HD is 100 miles, with an outdoor antenna.

The point is - these are very good numbers. I don't see the need for a power increase. Houston FM off of 2000 foot sticks is in bad shape at 120 miles, and yet by 100 is it pretty strong. If HD numbers are in the 50 to 60 mile range, that would cover the majority of most metro areas. Those outside in the 50 to 100 mile range are used to outdoor antennas anyway - and it sounds like a mounting body of evidence that HD is possible to those distances. So what would an FM power increase accompish?

How does AM do at that distance? I'm using large box loops and barely get locals in the daytime HD. 10 to 30 mile type of stuff. With the supplied 4 inch loop - no reliable lock even on stations less than 10 miles away. Really scary to me - to think of a tenfold power increase on those sidebands. Ten times louder? They are already considerably louder than analog as it is.

I can receive WAWZ using a dipole on my Receptor. It just require proper orientation.

 

[vsa]

"Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?"

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population.

You are such a fountainhead of misinformation. Totally out of touch! No wonder you think HD radio has a "future." Let me help YOU out here Mr. Burns.

According to the CTIA wireless association, an amazing 250-million Americans are now subscribers to some sort of cell phone plan. That's a massive 82.4 percent of the U.S. population. And these are last year's figures!

http://www.switched.com/2007/11/14/82-of-americans-own-cell-phones/

And you sir are rude. Your belief that a cell phone will replace radio is equivelent to my saying that toaster ovens will replace the real thing.

Rude for correcting you on how many American's have cell phones? You were proven to be many years behind the times. I wrote nothing about replacing radios, toaster ovens or real things. You are reading something that I did not write. Please get a grip Mr. Burns!

 

[KB1OKL]

I'm sorry if I have to be honest, but so far when looking for hd radios to buy, EVERY ONE of the reviews has a severe negative for every model I could find on Amazon.

#1. "I'm sorry if I have to be honest" but HD sucks

AM HD can't even get off the ground without a riot somewhere.

see #1.

By the way, the compression/bit rate/resulting sound quality for AM FM HD is LOWER than Sirius or XM? Is that true?

see #1.

I bought on HD radio last year and returned it a week later. The adjustability was poor and the reception was almost impossible.

see #1.

What exactly is going to be done about these problems?

what happened to the Yugo, AM stereo, and 8 track machines?

Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?

See #1.

 

[R.F. Burns]

"Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?"

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population.

You are such a fountainhead of misinformation. Totally out of touch! No wonder you think HD radio has a "future." Let me help YOU out here Mr. Burns.

According to the CTIA wireless association, an amazing 250-million Americans are now subscribers to some sort of cell phone plan. That's a massive 82.4 percent of the U.S. population. And these are last year's figures!

http://www.switched.com/2007/11/14/82-of-americans-own-cell-phones/

And you sir are rude. Your belief that a cell phone will replace radio is equivelent to my saying that toaster ovens will replace the real thing.

Rude for correcting you on how many American's have cell phones? You were proven to be many years behind the times. I wrote nothing about replacing radios, toaster ovens or real things. You are reading something that I did not write. Please get a grip Mr. Burns!

No, rude in the manor you responded. It was already pointed out how many people have cell phones. Your response was written with sarcasm and not appreciated.

 

[vsa]

"Why can't HD radio be as durable and effective off the shelf as the cell phone most people have?"

Most people? That's quite an overstatement. Let me help you our here. Most people do not own cell phones. I can't tell you the percentage of the population who do own them but I doubt it's anywhere near 50% of the population.

You are such a fountainhead of misinformation. Totally out of touch! No wonder you think HD radio has a "future." Let me help YOU out here Mr. Burns.

According to the CTIA wireless association, an amazing 250-million Americans are now subscribers to some sort of cell phone plan. That's a massive 82.4 percent of the U.S. population. And these are last year's figures!

http://www.switched.com/2007/11/14/82-of-americans-own-cell-phones/

And you sir are rude. Your belief that a cell phone will replace radio is equivelent to my saying that toaster ovens will replace the real thing.

Rude for correcting you on how many American's have cell phones? You were proven to be many years behind the times. I wrote nothing about replacing radios, toaster ovens or real things. You are reading something that I did not write. Please get a grip Mr. Burns!

No, rude in the manor you responded. It was already pointed out how many people have cell phones. Your response was written with sarcasm and not appreciated.

I apologize for writing that you are a fountainhead of misinformation. That was way over the top. Bad vsa, bad vsa.

 

[Chuck]

I can tell you that with my attic mounted TV antenna attached to my Sangean HDT 1 & HDT 1X tuners I am able top easily decode all HD channnels from WAWZ, located in Zaraphath, NJ. Zaraphath is about 60 miles southwest of my receive location. I can also decode WAWZ on my bedside Receptor with its attached dipole antenna, although antenna positioning is more critical using only a dipole antenna. I live in a NYC suburb approx 25 miles north west of Manhattan and I have no problem with any of the NY HD stations.

Let's get real for a second. You and I have HDT-1's which are probably the most astounding FM tuner built in recent years. We might even have FM antennas in our attics or on the roof. Most people do not. The best you can hope for is they unwind whatever antenna comes with the receiver. A lot of people leave it in the box. (Really) When the radio doesn't work, it gets returned to the store. It is as simple as that.

Yesterday, I visited Fry's in Arlington, TX. Internet table radios outnumbered HD radios by 2 to one. In fact, I bought one of the Sangean Wi-Fi radios. Other than cabinet finish, it looks exactly like the HD version. When I got home, I opened the box, took it out and plugged it into an AC outlet in my kitchen. When I powered it up, the display said "searching for network." In a few seconds it connected and a station menu came up that had BBC as the pre-programmed first service. I pushed in on the knob (the equivalent of "enter") and it started playing music. It sounds pretty good. In about two minutes, I had several stations entered as pre-sets, including my own radio station, which was on the menu. (Imagine that!) It works great, and it is easy to use. No futzing with antennas. I still haven't looked at the manual.

To be honest, in the store, both HD and Internet radios were dwarfed by the iPod generation. There were only a handful of HD or Internet radios on display. You had to look very hard to find them. There were hundreds (no exaggeration) of iPod compatible devices. They took up several aisles. That was the big deal. The problem is, it is not radio of any kind, unless the device can also receive AM and FM. Some did, but many did not. I think that is significant.

I asked two "sales associates" about HD and Internet radio. One was interested in Internet radio and said he listened on his computer using WinAmp. He did not know there were stand-alone radios, but was eager to learn about them. He may buy one himself. The other "associate" said, "with satellite taking over, there isn't much interest in radios." I don't happen to agree, but that is what the person said.

Regardless of your stand on all this, there is a lot of work to be done.