VOA To Do Propaganda?

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Compartmentalization and shifts of projects from one agency's budget to another agency's budget don't mean diddly-squat. Such changes are not wacky conspiracy theories. They are matters of public record.

Yeah, right. And I have a bridge that connects Manhattan to Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

Do you actually have experience working in government agencies?

I am NOT a defender of the way government works. But I'm even less a fan of people who don't know much about government who try to tell us how it works.

For all I know, maybe you are the person who runs the VA.... where they are finding they don't have records of who has been waiting how long to get seen by a VA doctor and they die waiting.

Those dear departed souls may soon be matters of public record, but the big revelation currently is that they ARE NOT public records.

Give us documentation that we can go and view for ourselves if you want us to accept and understand your arguments.

 

[davideduardo]

Until 2013, VOA was prohibited by the Smith-Mundt Act of 1948 from broadcasting within the U.S. I live within the US.

Wrong. That act restrained the VOA from broadcasting specifically to people within the US.

In fact, much of the VOA transmitting equipment has been and is located within the United States... facilities such as Greenville, NC, Mason, OH and Delano, CA for example. Or even Marathon Key, FL. Those places are "within the U.S." and the VOA broadcast from them (still do from Greenville and Marathon).

To truly understand the content of VOA broadcasts, I'd have to listen to them 24/7 for weeks, and frankly, I'm not motivated to do that.

In other words, you have not listened and are not qualified to give opinions on the content.

My point stands. Regardless of the name, acronym, or any transitory shifts in rhetoric, all the various United States Government propaganda broadcasts were made by the United States government.

No, they weren't. RFE started as a private effort by some groups in Europe to broadcast across what would be called the Iron curtain. Most of the founders were exiles from what had become Russia's eastern European satellites. They quickly rounded up some CIA funding as well as private benefactors, mostly people with heritage in eastern Europe.

In any case, you did not say this. RFE was not even run by the same govenment agency in its first 25 years or so... and VoA and RFE were often in disagreement with VoA on occasion being in opposition to the separate and thus, uncontrolled, RFE and Radio Liberty.

Compartmentalization and shifts of projects from one agency's budget to another agency's budget don't mean diddly-squat. Such changes are not wacky conspiracy theories. They are matters of public record.

That makes no sense at all.

 

[Wimmmex]

Thanks but we already dealt with that several pages ago.

Apparently it needed to be said again.

 

[Avid Listener]

Do you actually have experience working in government agencies?

How much experience in working in government does one need to have to be able to read and understand history books?

Does one need to be a combat-experienced fighter or bomber pilot to understand that at one time, land-based American military airplanes were operated by the Army, but in 1947, Congress created a separate armed force, called the US Air Force? The money for military aircraft allocated to the Army's budget one year was allocated to the Air Force the next.

Does one need to be a government employee to know that all of the funding that used to go to the War Department was later allocated to the Department of Defense?

Do you need to be a cabinet officer to know that some of the government operations that used to be part of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare were moved over to the Department of Health and Human Services or Housing and Urban Development? Do you need to have walked through a neighborhood with a sack of mail on your shoulder to know that what used to be a Cabinet level position, Postmaster General, is now simply the head of the US Postal Service?

How is shifting the responsibilities for US propaganda broadcasts from one acronymed agency to another any different from transferring regulation of all radio broadcasts from the Federal Radio Commission and all wire communication regulation from the Interstate Commerce Commission over to the new, combined Federal Communications Commission? If you worked for a government agency as a Forest Ranger, how would that give you any special insight into how Congress allocated funding for various projects?

Most important, how does anyone really know for certain how various "black" projects are funded or operated, especially when there is an operational need to make a CIA project appear to be a non-government operation? When the CIA uses some sort of cover fiction to make something look like it isn't a government operation, what kind of fool clings to that fictional cover story decades later when the truth is revealed?

 

[JeffM]

Avid doesn't need a saddle for his unicorn. He just spindles himself on the horn...

 

[TheBigA]

How much experience in working in government does one need to have to be able to read and understand history books?

The difference between all of your examples and the VOA is that the VOA is a RADIO service, and people can HEAR what they do. And there's outside oversight to what they do. Unlike the CIA and the Defense Department. So if they're breaking the law or defying their charter, it's in the open.

And as I've been saying, the point of this thread is there's a Congressman who wants to CHANGE the charter so they CAN do all the things you're talking about. He wants to get government permission to turn the VOA into a tool of the CIA. And you seem to feel that's OK.

 

[Avid Listener]

And as I've been saying, the point of this thread is there's a Congressman who wants to CHANGE the charter so they CAN do all the things you're talking about. He wants to get government permission to turn the VOA into a tool of the CIA. And you seem to feel that's OK.

You claim to work in radio in the US. That means you're claiming to be fluent in the English language. Weren't you paying any attention in grade school when the teacher taught the difference between "can" and "may". The CIA already CAN do all those things. They've been doing it for years. They're doing in without technical legal permission. But the fact that the letter of the law prevents them from doing things hasn't stopped them before. The Voice of America has ALWAYS been a tool of the CIA. This government permission simply changes what had been "black ops" that the legal authorities winked at into above board activities. This bill, if passed, will simply change CAN to MAY.

If you really believe that the CIA, and all of the other acronymed agencies in the American intelligence community only engaged in legal, above-board activities, you're the one riding a unicorn.

You betray your own bias in your last sentence, with that gratuitous reference how you think I feel about it. This isn't an emotional issue. My "feelings" are irrelevant. I THINK that the government has been using the VOA as a tool of the CIA since day one. I think that because I've actually read books about the subject. You might have heard of books. They're many sheets of paper with words on them, fastened together so you can read each sheet one at a time. They're like the internet, except that they go into much more detail and you can't post links to most of them. You often find them in libraries, including the libraries at places called "schools", where people also learn things.

I've never expressed any opinion on whether that is right or wrong, or if I like or dislike that reality. Reality simply is what it is. The government does it. Hide in your little fantasy land of make believe and denial all you want, that doesn't change the truth.

 

[JeffM]

You might have heard of books. They're many sheets of paper with words on them, fastened together so you can read each sheet one at a time. They're like the internet, except that they go into much more detail and you can't post links to most of them. You often find them in libraries, including the libraries at places called "schools", where people also learn things.

The punster's dictionary again... SNARKASM: Trying to be sarcastic but not smart enough to pull it off.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

How much experience in working in government does one need to have to be able to read and understand history books?

Does one need to be a combat-experienced fighter or bomber pilot to understand that at one time, land-based American military airplanes were operated by the Army, but in 1947, Congress created a separate armed force, called the US Air Force? The money for military aircraft allocated to the Army's budget one year was allocated to the Air Force the next.

You have answered my question in an indirect way. And some of your examples are very fresh in my memory. I just completed narrating an audio book written by a man who finished high school in 1943 and enlisted with the intention of becoming a military combat pilot to be part of World War II. 20 years later he would become The Pilot for Air Force ONE during the Lyndon Johnson presidency. He was unique among AF-ONE pilots in that he had a dual role, also serving as the President's Military Aide. Which means he was the person who spent the "secret funds" available to the President for the Cold War "secret" underground bunkers in various locations where the President and other officials were to go in case of an emergency. He was the person who played games with various budgets to get the runway on the LBJ Ranch enhanced, and construct a facility where he and his crew to live and operate when they were at the ranch, ready to take the president whenever and where ever he wanted to go. It is not really a "kiss and tell" kind of book, but there are a few anecdotes that border on kiss and tell. He tells of the beg-borrow-and-steal techniques that government people sometimes have to use to get their job done. When John Glenn orbits the earth, and the vice president of the United States is directed to fly to an Island in the Carribean to bring the "hero" home for welcoming ceremonies and the landing strip on the island doesn't have everything necessary to accommodate the "fetching of the hero"... where does the money come from? Who pays the bill out of what budget?

When I was in grade school, my father was on the school board. We had a Superintendent of the school system that understood the ins-and-outs of funds available from various government sources. We were in a economically volatile part of the country up against the Mexican border. Part of the year we were armpit-deep in children from Mexican families who "followed the harvest across the nation... and took the kids with them." So part of the year we had empty chairs where those children would sit. For this superintendent of a small rural school, I was his "teacher's pet". Through him and my father, I watched as they read the rules, did the paperwork, and figured out which funding sources provided excellent funding.... if you knew how to properly set the date for you Annual School Census.

I had a co-worker years ago who was a young accountant when Medicare was "created" and LBJ promised the people of America: "We are going to build nursing homes for these old people, and we're going to take care of them. Then after the speech, LBJ looked around at his staff and asked: "How are we going to do that?" They called a group of "Whiz Kids" to Washington and they created the rules and regulations on how to spend available money to pay for nursing home care. And it has obviously been a moving target through the years. My young "Whiz Kid" friend made a living for several decades not only operating a few nursing homes himself, but serving as a consultant teaching owners of nursing home HOW to properly word and file their claims to get payment. If you were not an insider, if you did not have someone on your team who was an insider, you couldn't function successfully because you didn't understand HOW to ask for the money.

Most government agencies get funding from multiple legal authorizations. Look at all the chaos up in New Jersey and NYC as local people try to figure out which government agency pay for which kind of hurricane related losses.

Go follow the people around over there in your own county court house and city hall as they put together plans for a street widening and extending the street at one end to connect up with the nearby U.S. Highway. What them read regulations of various departments and agencies of Federal and State government and blend enough funding sources together to actually fund such a project.

And to cap off your learning episodes, just grow old. Sit down with an Eldercare lawyer and generate your wills, medical directives, etc. And then come up with a game plan for the day you or your spouse may have to go into a nursing home in a matter of months. Figure out what Federal programs there may be. Figure out what Medicare can and cannot pay for. Figure out what state agencies will and will not pay for.

Pay close attention to the Congress and the Senate TODAY, This year in Washington as they try to complete the roll-out of "obamacare" and then pay close attention to how the state where you and I live rolls out barricades to throw in the road to make sure you and I can't get access to money that Federal government intended for us to use.... and figure out which insurance policy to buy... and then with a straight face ask me again: How much experience in working in government does one need to have to be able to read and understand history books?

And hang onto your hat. The current bru-ha-ha over "doctored" waiting lists at VA Hospitals if pursued with intelligence and vigor, will 'blow your mind'. How many doctors at VA hospitals work full time for the hospital? Where else do they work? Are they paid adequately for what they do at the VA hospital compared to how they are paid where ever else they work or practice? When a doctor at a VA hospital sits down with his accountant at the end of the year to do his taxes, how many different organizations write him/her separate checks during the year? How many different Federal, State and local hospital budgets and laws regulate the pay of that doctor? I'm stocking up on extra pop-corn to watch the night news reports on this lesson in how the Federal laws, rules, regulations and budgets work together.... and in tension with one another.

And, as we always should in these forums, lets bring all this back to radio. How many Talk Radio folks are up to speed on all the crap I have thrown into this one posting. How many of them are skilled enough to explain to us what the previous days discoveries about the VA Hospital story make sense, and which ones appear to be Red Herrings?

 

[TheBigA]

Reality simply is what it is. The government does it. Hide in your little fantasy land of make believe and denial all you want, that doesn't change the truth.

Except that they don't. We know that they don't because people can HEAR the programming on the VOA. If they were broadcasting propaganda, foreign governments would use that to their advantage. They don't. And once again, the Congressman wouldn't feel the need to enact legislation to change the charter.

 

[FredLeonard]

The reason the VOA was precluded from domestic broadcasting was not fears or scruples about government propaganda but because the broadcasting industry wanted to make sure the government did not go into competition with them.
Propaganda only became a dirty word in the US when it was later linked to communism (as in "communist propaganda"). Outside the US, "propaganda" is still used as a synonym for advertising and PR.
Back in the day, the broadcasting industry did not have a problem with propaganda. During World War II and during the Cold War, broadcasters were very willing to be enablers and dissemination of government propaganda and voluntarily to submit to government censorship.
This congressman seems to be suggesting that the VOA be used to "sell" the US position, and presenting the government's agenda is what most international and government-owned broadcasters are set up to do.
The CBC was established for the express purpose of establishing and promoting Canadian identity.
And "promote the public interest, convenience and necessity" are code words for follow the rules and support your public officials. The motion picture code was much more explicit in defining a role for movie to be instruments of socialization.
Remember: It's only propaganda if you don't agree with it.

 

[TheBigA]

This congressman seems to be suggesting that the VOA be used to "sell" the US position, and presenting the government's agenda is what most international and government-owned broadcasters are set up to do.

Exactly. However, in this country, we have the State Department spokesman do that. His government pay grade is higher than that of a VOA newsman. And his reporting structure is very different.

 

[davideduardo]

The reason the VOA was precluded from domestic broadcasting was not fears or scruples about government propaganda but because the broadcasting industry wanted to make sure the government did not go into competition with them.

And it went beyond that. When short-wave became popular in the 30's, the domestic broadcasters (particularly the clear channel stations) became worried that the bands could be used to reach the whole U.S. without need for local stations. In particular, when the networks of the day began setting up international shortwave broadcasting (most specifically to the southern parts of the Western Hemisphere), local affiliates worried that they would be replaced by shortwave. Playing on the FCC's interest in "localism" the interests of the time got the FCC to exclude "broadcasting to a domestic audience" from the usage of a short wave license.

 

[Avid Listener]

Except that they don't. We know that they don't because people can HEAR the programming on the VOA. If they were broadcasting propaganda, foreign governments would use that to their advantage. They don't. And once again, the Congressman wouldn't feel the need to enact legislation to change the charter.

You can't even recognize bias when you hear it on NPR's Morning Edition or All Things Considered. And, as several other people besides me have pointed out, "propaganda" only became a dirty word when it was linked to false statements from the Soviet Bloc. Propaganda includes telling the truth. It also includes being selective in what truth is told, and what truth is left unmentioned.

There's a classic story about propaganda as the Soviets used to practice the art. When one of their sports teams lost to the US, the headline was, "Soviets come in second, Yankee capitalists come in next to last". That wasn't a lie.

 

[TheBigA]

You can't even recognize bias when you hear it on NPR's Morning Edition or All Things Considered.

That's because it's not bias.

Look...you've invented your own little conspiracy theory here, and you can't understand why no one else agrees with it. That's because it's a conspiracy theory that has no proof. You've posted no transcripts. It's just you and your opinion. I don't agree. Sorry. I won't agree until you can produce some real proof. You refused to post transcripts from NPR, and you haven't posted any from VOA either. So we're left to accept your word as a truthful source, and we don't have any reason to do that. And I'm not trying to change your mind, or say you have to agree with me either.

So keep living in your world where everything is either biased or propaganda. Just don't expect anyone else to agree with you.

 

[Avid Listener]

That's because it's not bias.

Look...you've invented your own little conspiracy theory here, and you can't understand why no one else agrees with it. That's because it's a conspiracy theory that has no proof. You've posted no transcripts. It's just you and your opinion. I don't agree. Sorry. I won't agree until you can produce some real proof. You refused to post transcripts from NPR, and you haven't posted any from VOA either. So we're left to accept your word as a truthful source, and we don't have any reason to do that.

So keep living in your world where everything is either biased or propaganda. Just don't expect anyone else to agree with you.

I'm sorry, but it is impossible to post a transcript of the news events that weren't reported on NPR. It would look like this quote below:

" "

That's a transcript of a story that Morning Edition and All Things Considered didn't report. How much does that prove?

 

[FredLeonard]

As Avid Listener says, propaganda - or an effective sales presentation, if you prefer - includes telling the truth. When VOA was set up, the idea was to make the VOA "fair and balanced" because that would be more effective than the kind of blatant BS Herr Goebbels was serving up for domestic consumption. And the competition at the time was German, not Russian. VOA's model for how to sell effectively was Tokyo Rose (and Axis Sally).
US media have always been corporate controlled and have always delivered propaganda.
Saying the communists lied and VOA told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is propaganda in and of itself.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm sorry, but it is impossible to post a transcript of the news events that weren't reported on NPR.

You didn't even post a list of stories that weren't covered. All you said is their reporting is biased, and expected us to agree. Sorry.

 

[TheBigA]

As Avid Listener says, propaganda - or an effective sales presentation, if you prefer - includes telling the truth.

What's being left out of the discussion is HOW the news is presented. That's why I'm asking for transcripts. I'm not questioning truth or lies. I'm suggesting that the poster is assigning a negative stereotype to something without being specific.

 

[Avid Listener]

You didn't even post a list of stories that weren't covered. All you said is their reporting is biased, and expected us to agree. Sorry.

I don't expect people to agree. I realize that those who "feel" won't be persuaded by anything, especially mere facts. People who "think" don't need to be convinced, because they can see (OK, hear) the reality themselves.