Vocal that the format needs

[Nock]

I think some songs are just too old, too burnt out, too out of place, or too likely to carry negative nostalgia baggage and those are all subjective things.

Exactly how I feel. It is not that I do not like many of the vocals that have been mentioned. Just don't fit the vibe and bring back old girlfriends. If the flow stops, that gives a listener an opportunity to go elsewhere. Learned that back in my old nightclub days.

Nock

 

[AC Tones]

Ultimately I think it comes down to how does it sound in the flow of the music mix and the context of how the station makes people feel. So it comes down to the instrumentals that surround the vocals, you can play an "out of place" vocal without freaking out the listeners if the songs surrounding it match in texture and tempo. That being said I think some songs are just too old, too burnt out, too out of place, or too likely to carry negative nostalgia baggage and those are all subjective things.
One of the worst train wrecks I ever heard was on a BA station that played Kenny G's "Songbird" into Clapton's "Wonderful Tonight".. That happens a lot when the music is being programmed by a computer (yeah, some folks don't edit their selector logs..they just put it in and let it roll)

Transitions are key. No question about it. That can be dealt with in the programming code and building dedicated categories of music. "Out of place" tunes can easily become part of the presentation with good code. But I still contend old, even familiar cuts can work in this format as a change of pace, provided it has the necessary elements (heavy synth and/or good bass lines) and are played once every 10-14 days. The problem with BA (and many terrestrial radio stations), in addition to their music selections, has been their small playlist. If you are playing the same old, familiar 30+ year old vocals within two days of each spin, that is a problem. But I see no problem slipping these in to change pace, particularly if they have pleasing melodies. It doesn't mean I am averse to the Chill and AAA vocals. All for them. But one thing I think we have to be careful about is locking this format into predictability. Isn't that what got us here to begin with? As much as I enjoy listening to my own station, there are often times when I am longing for one of my favorite vocals from the 70s and 80s just to mix things up. Find it hard to believe I am the only one who feels this way. JMO.

 

[AC Tones]

I forgot to mention that I love provocative topics like this one. I think we can agree that we have tremendous passion for this music. Where to go from here is what I really enjoy talking about. As Bill has said previously on more than one occasion, we are in unchartered waters. With dwindling terrestrial outlets for this music, the Internet needs to carry the ball. Using a basketball metaphor, some may want to pound it inside to the big men for higher percentage shots. Others will fire up long range 3-pointers. I have and will continue to strive for a balanced offense as a programmer (inside/outside game). But if you talk to my teammates from my varsity squad from 25 years ago, I was always known as a "chucker," and that personality at times will come out in my programming. ;D

 

[Nock]

Let me throw this one out there. As this has been discussed numerous times. We all agreed that we need to attract younger listeners. Personally I do not feel classic Doobies, Pink Floyd, etc are not attracting a younger audience. Part of the fun I had with my show, until station was sold out from under us last week, was a college frequency that forced me to be very progressive in my picks of music. (Not that I minded) The feedback I received on some of the cool vocals I was spinning was amazing but they were fresh and new. My 18 and 20 year olds friends were listening. Student DJ's came by asking about what I was playing.

Nock

 

[AC Tones]

Let me throw this one out there. As this has been discussed numerous times. We all agreed that we need to attract younger listeners. Personally I do not feel classic Doobies, Pink Floyd, etc are not attracting a younger audience. Part of the fun I had with my show, until station was sold out from under us last week, was a college frequency that forced me to be very progressive in my picks of music. (Not that I minded) The feedback I received on some of the cool vocals I was spinning was amazing but they were fresh and new. My 18 and 20 year olds friends were listening. Student DJ's came by asking about what I was playing.

Nock

Ahh, partial agreement, finally! (at least an agreement in principle) In no way am I suggesting classic Doobies, Pink Floyd, and soft Pop 70s will appeal to a younger audience. To the contrary, with a few exceptions, it has appealed to the 45+ crowd, which is about what I expected. Where I am hoping to hook some of the younger audience is with some AAA 80s and early 90s. Sure, these songs may be considered "old" by some, but have a far different vibe from the other tunes. Once again, it's about adding diversity to an instrumental-heavy presentation while trying to minimize the aforementioned "train wrecks." Not an easy task, as I have learned. It takes a very skilled programmer (not saying I am there yet, but certainly am aspiring to be one 8)), powerful software, and well-crafted code. As for being "progressive" with vocals, the melodic Chill stuff (mostly female) is about as progressive as I'll get. Not a huge fan of some of the AAA stuff college kids listen to---IMO, it makes for awkward transitions, arguably as awkward if not more so than some of the cuts I have mentioned, and here's why I feel this way. During a two-hour show, you can pull that off. But with a 24/7 operation, it's not that easy. My "bread and butter" audience has been and continues to be the established 9-5 white collar office types, not college kids or young professionals. With an instrumental-heavy presentation, I just don't envision the majority of my listeners wanting to get up out of their workstations and start dancing around the office. Therefore, I decide to err on the side of more melodic vocals, old and new, without an edge. Does this mean I am guilty of being one who prefers this to be a format for relaxation? Perhaps. But if you listen to my station regularly, you know that the presentation is comprised overwhelmingly of upbeat instrumental cuts. I regularly opt to avoid the sleepy singles that promoters have pushed at times, and find the most interesting and upbeat tunes. And on weekends and during off-peak hours, I try to offer unique programming that you would not otherwise get during weekdays. But at the end of the day, I cannot lose sight of the fact that it is an "instrumental" format, and have come to grips with the fact that my base audience hasn't changed in almost 3 years on the air, and that is the 45+ crowd. And as much as it pains me to admit it, I just don't see that changing anytime soon. Despite my best efforts to deny it, I am resigned to the fact that the overwhelming majority of young listeners, and a sizeable percentage of the target audience views Smooth Jazz as a modern day "Easy Listening" format. As much as we beat up on BA, I still don't think this format would have generated the kind of revenue/listenership to survive in the era of big corporate terrestrial radio, even with superb programming. When the leading Smooth Jazz Internet stream GLOBALLY generates fewer than 5000 concurrent listeners during peak listening hours (with a vast infrastructure and tradition on their side), it's hard to argue otherwise.

 

[AnotherCat]

Speaking of late 70s (were we..) "Tranquillo" and "Spy" by Carly Simon, For Someone Special - Doobie Bros

 

[AC Tones]

Speaking of late 70s (were we..) "Tranquillo" and "Spy" by Carly Simon, For Someone Special - Doobie Bros

I'll check those out, Cat. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[producer57]

I recently spent time with a major radio mover and shaker who was heavily involved with SJ. They said that the main thing that was sold to advertisers was SJ as relaxation.
It worked well for awhile but then the numbers stayed the same and the audience got older and older. Then the PPM showed that the audience wasn't as large or important
as previously thought-That was the beginning of the end. The format was then constantly dominated by the same artists all the time and there was no room to grow.
They said that nobody figured out a way to maintain the delicate balance between the core audience and also growing the audience to even a slightly younger demographic.
I personally think that the format never melded vocalists correctly with instrumentals-They borrowed vocals from other formats

 

[AnotherCat]

What I look for in a vocal is instrumental/textural compatiblity with the core music of the mix- the instrumentals. Playing a pop song for the sake of playing a pop song when it busts the flow and the mood is disruptive. Also, playing random overfamiliar pop songs is like saying "I'm sorry you have to sit through these weird instrumentals so we'll give you something more standard to keep you listening." With that attitude why not just go all familiar vocals. Oh wait, they did that.

They focused too much on relaxation and never realized that the 40 year old of 1987 wanted something different than the 40 year old of 2007. Yeah, B/EZ focused on relaxation but where is their audience now (6 ft under)? Focusing on one mood and one aspect of a listeners life made the format one dimensional but the power guys never saw the changes because they only hung out with each other and watched the rest of the world with blinders on

 

[producer57]

hung out with each other and watched the rest of the world with blinders on

That happens in many business's. It's what in many ways separates success from failure

 

[AC Tones]

I want to take a quick moment to thank everyone again for some of the quality vocals suggestions in this thread. Still trying to digest all of them and identify those that might work for the station. If you are a regular listener of the station, you no doubt have a noticed over the last couple weeks that you are hearing more vocals, and a far wider variety of them, from Crosby, Stills, and Nash and Pablo Cruise to Taylor Swift and Ingrid Michaelson. I know this has been a complete shock for some guys, and a welcomed and refreshing change for others. It is going to take some time to massage the code to soften the transitions for hardcore cjazz listeners. But for better or worse, this is the path I have chosen to take. You all have heard me preach about the importance of changing pace with decent, unexpected vocals. I do believe there is a place for Pop/Rock/AAA vocals among upbeat instrumental cuts, and going forward, I think it will ultimately help to bring in new listeners from a wide demo. As much as I love this music, I have come to the realization that change of pace vocals other than the usual suspects (BA R&B/Urban offerings, old school NAC, e.g., Michael Tomlinson, Michael Franks, and the like, and Chill) is what this format desperately needs. Otherwise, I fear it will forever be stereotyped as "Elevator Music" by a new generation of listeners we need to recruit. By cleverly injecting Pop/Rock vocals/artists that are already well known to younger audiences, and rolling them out with uptempo cjazz currents, I think it may foster a change in the pervasive negative perceptions about this music among a ton of potential listeners and help extend the shelf life of this genre. IMO, it's the only way an instrumental format is going to survive, evolve, and grow. And if I end up being wrong, I'll be the first one to come back here and admit it.

 

[producer57]

I am shocked-Just shocked

 

[AC Tones]

I am shocked-Just shocked

You're not alone, man. So be it. It's something I've got to do. As great as the music is right now, it isn't and won't be enough to stand on its own as we move forward. I never used to feel that way, but I do now. I know folks in the music industry too, and the picture is not pretty for this genre from the production side of the house. And we know what has happened to the radio side.

It would be a VERY easy thing for me to scrub vocals completely. I have nearly 5000 instrumental cuts in my playlist, so there is plenty of material there. But if we don't find a way to pull in new and younger listeners (outside of festivals and shows), we're dead in the water. So with the best of intentions, I am throwing things against the wall to see if they stick. If I piss off regular listeners in the process, that's the chance I have to take. It's not about greed or mass appeal. It's about the longterm survival and health of this format. For me, that means going where few if any have dared to go with programming before, and spinning vocals that others assume will NEVER work or don't have the guts to spin. Time to weed out the "safe" vocals, old and new. No Marvin. No Barry. No George Benson. No Stevie. No Luther. No Alicia Keys. Much less Sade. Not that I don't love their music, but if we ever expect anyone outside of the handful on this board to talk about this being a true alternative for adult listeners of all ages (regardless of how good WE think the music is), it means taking chances, a lot of chances. As a hobbyist, I have that luxury, and that's exactly what I intend to do.

 

[Nock]

Has Kepler hacked AC's account? Can I borrow your hard drives before the vocals were added. Know someone who wants to start a good sounding stream.

Nock

 

[producer57]

There are great freakin vocals out there-It can't all be Guitars and Saxes-Bebel Gilberto,Ceu and a number of others fir into this format perfectly

 

[PTBoardOp94]

So ... how about Adele's current CD? "21" The single, "Rolling in the Deep" has been on the CHR/AC charts here and in the UK, but some of the deeper cuts are interesting for NAC. "Lovesong" is one example.

 

[Bill Harmonic]

At the Lounge we're playing "Rolling in the Deep" and "I'll Be Waiting" by Adele. There will be a couple of the softer tunes including "Someone Like You" and Turning Tables" when I get the Sunday music rolling again. Our challenge is to search far and wide for simply the best material, especially with vocals because they will flavor the station. It's either good or bad and it either fits or it doesn't. I'm all over the board with my choices but they have a common thread (tempo and texture) and a rotation that I believe makes them compatible with the instrumental base. Some of the early selections have not made the cut but more are on the way. This is a living and growing work in progress and will always be. Remember, just because it was a hit does not make it unplayable. Different is good but being different for the sake of being different is the wrong path. If you want to be Yoko Ono then go for it. I'm building a commerically eclectic (oxymoron like jumbo shrimp and military intelligence) webstream that's different enough to stand out but comfortable enough to fit in. There are no rules now so we can paint the canvas anyway we want. if you want to hear how not to do it just go to the webcast of the Smooth Jazz Network. As Emerson said "do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

 

[AC Tones]

It's easy to armchair quarterback. Try running something 24/7 doing your best to keep things fresh for fickle listeners every single day and trying to make a dying format relevant, like Bill and I are doing. Sometimes I ask myself if it is even worth the time, money, and effort. My instrumentals to vocals ratio is still about 6:1, while the terrestrial gatekeepers of this format are 1:2 these days, at best. Yet, it's still not enough for some guys. And for the record, by no means am I changing for the sake of change. It's a gut feeling as to where I think the format needs to go, and I happen to like the music, personally.

If anyone wants my hard drive, I will be willing to negotiate a price offline. I'll even throw in the DJ software. Then you guys can pay the streaming and royalties fees, spend hours each week responding to listeners e-mails, and sampling music and sydicated shows, and I can hang out here and piss and moan about what you are and are not playing. It's not worth the aggravation anymore. It's becoming quite the drag real fast.

 

[passtheword]

I do believe there is a place for Pop/Rock/AAA vocals among upbeat instrumental cuts, and going forward, I think it will ultimately help to bring in new listeners from a wide demo. As much as I love this music, I have come to the realization that change of pace vocals other than the usual suspects (BA R&B/Urban offerings, old school NAC, e.g., Michael Tomlinson, Michael Franks, and the like, and Chill) is what this format desperately needs. Otherwise, I fear it will forever be stereotyped as "Elevator Music" by a new generation of listeners we need to recruit. By cleverly injecting Pop/Rock vocals/artists that are already well known to younger audiences, and rolling them out with uptempo cjazz currents, I think it may foster a change in the pervasive negative perceptions about this music among a ton of potential listeners and help extend the shelf life of this genre. IMO, it's the only way an instrumental format is going to survive, evolve, and grow. And if I end up being wrong, I'll be the first one to come back here and admit it.

Many of the younger generation today have already begun to equate even the adult contemporary format as "elevator music". If in their minds adult contemporary music is basically no more than an easy listening format, then just imagine where the smooth jazz format "fits into the picture". Some of that perception is due to marketing. Remember that the smooth jazz format on radio was actually a replacement for the old BM/EZ format. Those kinds of stations marketed themselves as "easy" and "relaxing" in much the same way the beautiful music stations once had. I believe that, although ultimately the BM/EZ format's demise was due to listeners aging out of the desired demos that advertisers were trying to reach, some of the format's undoing was the fact that many people began to equate the format to "muzak" and background music, which, in turn, gave the perception that the music was "sleepy and boring". Stores, doctors and dentists offices offered BM/EZ music in the background as well, which further exacerbated the negative stereotypes that the music was nothing more than background music. Likewise, the smooth jazz format now parallels that same path. Many times, more often than not, I am hearing smooth jazz being played as background music in stores.

I would surmise that a good portion of the smooth jazz listeners are BM/EZ listeners. I know some of the members here might want to cover their ears and go "la-la-la...NOT listening" when hearing that statement, but it's true. It would be interesting to do a survey and see just how many of the smooth jazz listeners are/were BM/EZ listeners. I (a smooth jazz listener myself) am a big BM/EZ listener, too... an interest I acquired from my dad (at 72 years old), who also listens to our local smooth jazz station. Those listeners had to come from somewhere, and I believe many of them are the disenfranchised BM/EZ listeners. Most of the jazz purists adamantly refuse to accept smooth jazz as "real jazz" and would never consider listening to the format, so I doubt many of those listeners make up the smooth jazz base.

As far as correcting the negative perceptions the next generation might have regarding the format, I would agree with you that there is some hope for certain generes like chill, which many younger people consider more palatable as far as listening than smooth jazz. If the smooth jazz format does not evolve to some degree, those listeners will continue to perceive smooth jazz as nothing more than "elevator music". I feel that unless the perception of the format is changed (by incorporating other fresh genres into the mix), then those negative connotations to "elevator music" are going to hold, unfortunately.

 

[producer57]

In my heart of hearts after being in the music world for many years,I have to say that I don't believe that SJ is a form of jazz.There was contemporary Jazz.Even though some of the music like Bob James made was softer there was some real depth too it.Have You ever heard Bob's version of Feel Like Making Love? It was simple butbwith great depth and excellent improvisation.He brought you into the song.In a trio format at over 6 minutes he showed you the great expanse ofnhis musicianship. I truly believe that everything was fine until BA took over and started to take any bit of talent that the artist had a sucked it dry out of the song.Now Jazz was relegated to 3:30 with no creativity other than their version of the melody.
Artists like Miles Davis,Coltrane,George Benson and many others always played pop songs.Miles loved Pop music.He knew what to do with it.Human Nature really is an excellent cut.
BA let their formula suck any life out of the music.Artists like Pat Metheny who really did make an attempt at having radio play were now really being squeezed and were eventually shut out.
Grover complained about this all the time.He wanted a change as well and was ready to try until he passed.
People can bitch and moan but it all started with a radio consulting firm who made up a name to fit their business plan.They finally went and squeezed the radio to 20 artists and songs.Now they abandoned the name they invented and trying to hold onto whatever crumbs are left. I believe they never cared about the music and what is left is a group of dedicated people trying to do something to bring it into the future.
It's not going to happen with this present group of artists and music looking to find the younger demographic.If you want to hear what they want to hear go to any of the clubs in Bklyn NY any night of the week.You'll see the audience all between 25 and 70 listening to many forms of Jazz.
Want to hear the same old same old go on one of the SJ NY summer cruises.Same artists every year playing the same music. Jazz has always been about change. That change has to start now if you really want to see change