WABC 100% syndicated

[TheBigA]

It's all about the money. The new radio God is the bottom line.

It's not new. The reason for ratings is to make money. If you study the history of commercial radio, it's always been about the money, going back to the 1920s.

 

[davideduardo]

In an era where theres facebook do we really need talkradio? I noticed when I asked younger audiences what is talk radio the majority will say "Is that where Rush, Beck and Hannity have their political show" THis is an indication that the younger audiences have bypassed talk radio for facebook chats when it comes to local issues.

"Younger people" (which in radio we would define as 18-34) have always bypassed talk radio; the format gains listener attention as a person becomes interested in more than music as audio entertainment.

While interactive talk radio... that is, talk shows with lots of calls... may be changing due to new media, the appeal of listening to an entertaining and informative talk host is strong in the upper part of any market's demos.

Although in some cities like San Francisco they listen to Drive time news and talk on NPR station KQED-FM and other programming and talk on non drive hours and yet this NPR station gets a 5.x and 6.x in the San Francisco ratings going head to head with KCBS in that market.

Keyword in that whole observation: "FM".

Also wasn't WINS-Am ranked in the top 10 radio stations in the nation that make the highest revenue along with WCBS, WBBM and WTOP. I do know KIIS in LA was the only known music station to make high revenue.

Of the top 25 billing stations in the US, 14 are FM music stations. In the top 10 we find KIIS, Z-100, Lite FM New York and KOST in LA.

While the biggest news or talk stations generally have high revenues (partly a function of having more commercial minutes available), they have enormous expenses. And there are not that many of those "big" news talk stations, as they tend to be only one or maybe two in a market...

Example: KFI is second in billing in LA, and KNX is fifth, there are only 3 AMs in the top 20 billers. New York has 5 AMs in the Top 20, and all of them are 50 kw stations. Go to Houston, a Top 10 market, and there are 3 talk station in the top 20... on at 9th and the other two at 18th and 19th.

 

[davideduardo]

'PLJ? It bills well but doesn't have high ratings though it's #1 with NJ soccer moms in NJ. If Cumulus put all-news on 95.5, they'd have a very tough time against long-established WCBS.

The "underperforming" WPLJ is somewhat of an exaggeration.

WFAN does just fine and it averages around 14th in 12+ over the years. And it's consistently Top 10 in 25-54 men.

WPLJ is often Top 5 in 25-54 women.

 

[davideduardo]

Look Cumulus saw that talk radio via KABC-AM was in the toilet but they saw that KNX and KFI had higher ratings over Cumulus LA.

KNX and KFI are non-directional 50,000 watt blow torches. KABC is a directional-at-night 5 kw peanut whistle.

If you are going shooting for big game, you need to have a round chambered...

 

[davideduardo]

Didn't KFWB move from CBS to KFWB Trust because 980 AM was directional too? and that CBS wanted to keep KCAL9 in the process.

CBS bought KCAL, and as a result was one total station over the 8 station market cap.

They moved the lowest performer to a trust where it is theoretically for sale.

KFWB is non-directional, but it is a mid-bander and the transmitter site is where ground conductivity in LA starts getting rather poor so it's not a big coverage proposition.

Since CBS had to get rid of one radio station, they picked the runt of the litter, KFWB. Obviously, the fact that they could get one station out of News and open up the field to then-declining KNX made the decision rather easy.

 

[radioguy39nj]

Example: KFI is second in billing in LA, and KNX is fifth, there are only 3 AMs in the top 20 billers. New York has 5 AMs in the Top 20, and all of them are 50 kw stations. Go to Houston, a Top 10 market, and there are 3 talk station in the top 20... on at 9th and the other two at 18th and 19th.

WTOP in DC is the top billing station in the country, IINM.

 

[OC3]

It's not new. The reason for ratings is to make money. If you study the history of commercial radio, it's always been about the money, going back to the 1920s.
[/quote]

I beg to differ...it is new because it is exclusively about the money now! If you can make money being #2 but you can make MORE money being #12, they don't care. Ratings yes use to lead to money, today that is not the case. Replace Limbaugh at WABC with Huckabee and they are already ahead because they save the syndication fee. That is more important than what Rush does vrs Huckabee in the book.

 

[radioguy39nj]

Didn't KFWB move from CBS to KFWB Trust because 980 AM was directional too? and that CBS wanted to keep KCAL9 in the process.

CBS bought KCAL, and as a result was one total station over the 8 station market cap.

They moved the lowest performer to a trust where it is theoretically for sale.

KFWB is non-directional, but it is a mid-bander and the transmitter site is where ground conductivity in LA starts getting rather poor so it's not a big coverage proposition.

If speculation on another board has it right, CBS could be looking at a similar situation in NY. CBS is maxed out in NY with the recent purchase of WLNY-TV. The speculation was that CBS was interested in Pacifica's 99.5 for the purpose of moving WFAN to that slot. It makes no sense to put FAN next to ESPN at 98.7. Family Radio and even SBS were also speculated to possibly be involved.

That said, the only way CBS can acquire another FM in NY is to sell one AM property. 660 and 880, both 50 kW non-D blasters are off-limits for obvious reasons. That leaves directional 1010.

The possibilities are endless, but in short, CBS could be looking at the long-term future of its AM brands. FM's future is spoken word formats, not music and CBS knows it. CBS has some very hard decisions to make.

 

[reelyreal]

WTOP in DC is the top billing station in the country, IINM.

That's gross revenue, but what does it cost to run WTOP? A boatload.

I beg to differ...it is new because it is exclusively about the money now!

WTIC was founded by Traveler's Insurance for the express purpose of promoting their insurance products.

WOR was founded in 1922 by Bamberger's Department store for the express purpose of selling more radio sets.

WNAC in Boston and WEAN in Providence were founded by the Shepard family and Shepard's Stores to promote the department stores.

While we're talking about Providence, WJAR was founded by The Outlet Stores and WPRO by Cherry & Webb Stores.

Westinghouse entered the broadcast business in 1922 with KDKA and WBZ. Why? They were in the electrical components and appliance business.

Are you sensing a pattern about the very beginning of radio in this country? If it weren't about the money, and only the money, none of these stations would have ever seen the light of day.

It's always been ONLY about the money. Programming is just a means to an end.


By the way, all this nonsense about one station being "next" to another as a bad idea is just that... nonsense. Dial position doesn't MATTER! Joe Radio User is much more likely to assign the station to a preset... So no matter what frequency the station is on, in most listener's cars it'll be on button 2, and the competitor will be on button 3.

It. Just. Doesn't. Matter. Not even a little.

 

[davideduardo]

Example: KFI is second in billing in LA, and KNX is fifth, there are only 3 AMs in the top 20 billers. New York has 5 AMs in the Top 20, and all of them are 50 kw stations. Go to Houston, a Top 10 market, and there are 3 talk station in the top 20... on at 9th and the other two at 18th and 19th.

WTOP in DC is the top billing station in the country, IINM.

WTOP is an FM, making it unusual... how many successful stand-alone All News FMs are there?

It is also in a market where not one AM fully covers the market day and night. It's also in the nation's capital, putting the format at a significant advantage there.

It's likely not even in the top 20 stations in profits, though. To say it is an expensive operation is an understatement.

 

[johnarbuckle]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before (I'm not reading through all 12 pages), but Hannity is still local in NYC. He draws a salary from them on top of Premiere. He still does the top of the hour time check with a line or two prior to the news at 59:00. He may not be talking about local issues, but he originates from WABC.

He's either broadcasting from WABC or from his house depending on the day. Even though his show is 50% recorded, he's live from about 3pm-4:30pm.

 

[badjef]

The problem is when there's a blank wall between shows. It creates no listener interest and builds no listener loyalty.

The goal is for the shows themselves to build listener interest and loyalty.

Right. Great for the show, not necessarily for the station.

Based on Rush's fan base, it appears to be working just fine. He doesn't have to make small talk with Hannity for the show to work. Typically, TSL for talk shows is huge compared to music shows. I think most listeners aren't motivated what you're talking about.

I think you're wrong. It's one of those intangibles that isn't likely to show up in a survey or a focus group, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. WABC is in a slow, steady decline. Why?

You are correct! The live and local radio station has been replaced. There is an intrinsic, and very much an intangible, value except in the minds of those only reading the black and white of a ratings book.

1.) As I write this, WFLA - which normally doesn't care about Sa-ra-so-ta! because it is not part of the Ratings bibles and therefore doesn't exist - is covering the closings IN Sa-ra-so-ta! County due to T.S. Isaac, which isn't even coming here.

2.) The irony of WABC is that some of those shows that started as local programs and went National, are no longer recognizable as the local program they were when they were local on WABC, only, so WABC appears to be only another syndicated station that just happens to air the programs.

3.) OTOH, be careful, since the era micro-market has begun, where you live will eventually not be included in the NYC Metro, anyway.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[TheBigA]

There is an intrinsic, and very much an intangible, value except in the minds of those only reading the black and white of a ratings book.

Those whose job it is to study and program based on"the black and white of a ratings book" understand that those numbers are actually people. If you dig into the "black and white," you get a pretty clear picture of who those people are. Most of the programmers I speak with understand that, and they speak in very detailed language about the people who listen to their station.

The thing I find so interesting is that there are communities outside the city that have their own local AM talk stations, and they focus on dealing with local issues they feel their audience wants to talk about. And amazingly, in most of those markets, the local talk station is losing to WABC's syndicated programming.

 

[recto101]

Wait I know Karel on KGO-AM in San Francisco is billed as a local host but he is really doing the Talk show from Long Beach in the LA area. This has to be common in some markets where a talk host is billed as a Local Host but the host is really somewhere else.

 

[davideduardo]

Wait I know Karel on KGO-AM in San Francisco is billed as a local host but he is really doing the Talk show from Long Beach in the LA area. This has to be common in some markets where a talk host is billed as a Local Host but the host is really somewhere else.

Karel is a "local host." His show is done for KGO, and is not, IIRC, syndicated anywhere else.

 

[recto101]

Wait I know Karel on KGO-AM in San Francisco is billed as a local host but he is really doing the Talk show from Long Beach in the LA area. This has to be common in some markets where a talk host is billed as a Local Host but the host is really somewhere else.

Karel is a "local host." His show is done for KGO, and is not, IIRC, syndicated anywhere else.

Karel on KGO would sometimes talk about doing "Local Talk" in other markets like Palm Springs and Reno during his KGO Talk Time before doing San Francisco at 7pm Sunday and 9pm on Saturday and when he is doing commentary for the KGO News Blocks.

 

[badjef]

There is an intrinsic, and very much an intangible, value except in the minds of those only reading the black and white of a ratings book.

Those whose job it is to study and program based on"the black and white of a ratings book" understand that those numbers are actually people. If you dig into the "black and white," you get a pretty clear picture of who those people are. Most of the programmers I speak with understand that, and they speak in very detailed language about the people who listen to their station.

The thing I find so interesting is that there are communities outside the city that have their own local AM talk stations, and they focus on dealing with local issues they feel their audience wants to talk about. And amazingly, in most of those markets, the local talk station is losing to WABC's syndicated programming.

There is a packaging of those programs at the National level that makes them more flash and professional sounding. At the local level, the money to pay professionals is not there and you are left with those new to radio, making all of the normal rookie mistakes and it shows in the production values even if the content is more relevant than the local show. That is nothing new, there is where the Professional come from.

But as to the Ratings vs. Listeners, it has been pointed out that Demographics are where it's at. A commuter to The City doesn't get counted, but they do buy products, and they buy products from those who secure the spots, always have and always will. You can not measure that with a rating book because that person lives out of the Survey area.

It is like saying, "we don't care about the baseball game being aired in the Nursing Home." That is about the dumbest comment I have heard!

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[disney fanatic]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before (I'm not reading through all 12 pages), but Hannity is still local in NYC. He draws a salary from them on top of Premiere. He still does the top of the hour time check with a line or two prior to the news at 59:00. He may not be talking about local issues, but he originates from WABC.

He's either broadcasting from WABC or from his house depending on the day. Even though his show is 50% recorded, he's live from about 3pm-4:30pm.

If Hannity is so successful, maybe he will move the show over to WOR coming in November.

 

[TimeIsTight]

A commuter to The City doesn't get counted, but they do buy products, and they buy products from those who secure the spots, always have and always will. You can not measure that with a rating book because that person lives out of the Survey area.

You are absolutely right about out of market commuters spending money in the ratings area. But, ratings are based on statistical samples, and the amount of economic activity generated by a "relatively" small number of out of market daily commuters is "likely" statistically insignificant. If you look at the number of commuters from outside the market who travel into it on a daily basis compared to the almost 16-million commuters in the NYC market, the potential economic significance of even a few hundred thousand, and that's a high estimate, doesn't mean much, since their behaviour isn't likely to be much different from people who are sampled and live in the market.

When I commuted to NYC, I honestly didn't buy much more than lunch in the city. I still bought my cars, groceries, medical services, household items, went to see movies etc. close to home. That is typical, and marketers know that. That is why, commuters get counted where they live and not where they work. They do most of their consumer spending close to home, and in the case of Ocean, Hunterdon, Mercer, Warren, and Sussex counties in NJ, commuters from there don't spend the bulk of their money in the NYC radio market, and that is why they don't count in the ratings.

If there was evidence to suggest that wasn't the case, the sampling could be adjusted to reflect that, but there is no such evidence. Lunch, newspapers and occasional candy bar purchases don't make much economic difference.

 

[TimeIsTight]

If Hannity is so successful, maybe he will move the show over to WOR coming in November.

Just remember, that Hannity's show is a sort-of joint venture between Cumulus and Clear Channel.

Apparently, Cumulus produces the show in its studios and has the rights to it in major cities where it owns a talk station, like WABC.

Clear Channel has the rights to syndicate the show outside of those specific major markets.

So, it appears, Hannity will stay on WABC until the current contracts and syndication deals all run out, but, probably, only the contract lawyers know for sure.