WABC IBOC Aircheck

[LinoNYC]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fr3lpn From Saturday night oldies show 8-4-07 Approx 4 min -27sec .WAV 45MB

From the output of an Acurian set to "normal" flat. Tail end of a Barbra Eden phoner and Roy Orbison's Only The Lonely.

I left it as a WAV to avoid any coding artifacts. AM IBOC isn't totally artifact-free,, nothing at these low (34k) bitrates can be, but for the sort of typical, casual listening it seems quite acceptable.

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/fr3lpn From Saturday night oldies show 8-4-07 Approx 4 min -27sec .WAV 45MB

From the output of an Acurian set to "normal" flat. Tail end of a Barbra Eden phoner and Roy Orbison's Only The Lonely.

I left it as a WAV to avoid any coding artifacts. AM IBOC isn't totally artifact-free,, nothing at these low (34k) bitrates can be, but for the sort of typical, casual listening it seems quite acceptable.

Lino

HD AM radio coverage is mostly 20kBps mono, unless you are extremely near a powerful HD station's transmitter site.

Another fact about AM IBOC that seems to be uncommon knowledge is that the hybrid system has two audio streams, a 20 kilobits-per-second "core" stream and a 16 kbps "enhanced" stream. Stereo audio is only available when the less-robust enhanced stream kicks in. When talking about the digital coverage they're obtaining, AM IBOC enthusiasts invariably neglect to mention whether they're achieving stereo audio.

Source:
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0044/t.4050.html

 

[tomservo]

I finally got a chance to listen to this just now. It certainly doesn't sound good enough to justify the damage to the AM band that IBOC is doing. The speech segments sound decent (maybe it's just the reverb) but as far as talk radio, wouldn't an analog FM talker sound even better?

Decent? Yes. A band-saver? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

[LinoNYC]

It certainly doesn't sound good enough to justify the damage to the AM band that IBOC is doing. The speech segments sound decent (maybe it's just the reverb) but as far as talk radio, wouldn't an analog FM talker sound even better?

You mention the dmage to the AM band as someone who grew up in NYC w/strong signals and high quality AM receivers, I agree its frustrationg to hear the trashed low-fi AM of today especially when a station lops off everything above 4.5khz

However the damage being done to Am by the fact that nationwide approx 10% of listeners tune to Am and among the youngest ears Am is down to low single digits. Given the age of most AM listeners, if something isn't done to atleast give apparent fidelity improvement AM will be all but dead in less than 10 years.

You mention "FM talker" That's part of the long-term dilemma for Am. Now that music formats are losing some of their draw TALK is starting to migrate to FM.

What will that leave for the AM band? Ethnic (at best) and worse,, religion.

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

LinoNYC said:

I agree its frustrationg to hear the trashed low-fi AM of today especially when a station lops off everything above 4.5khz

....if something isn't done to atleast give apparent fidelity improvement AM will be all but dead in less than 10 years.

How does cutting AM fidelity in half improve AM fidelity?
It is clear very few listeners are responding to the HD cartel's deceptive sales pitch to run out and replace all their analog radios with expensive, complex, problematic HD radios. At current sales rates for HD radios it will take hundreds of years to replace the estimated over 1 Billion analog radios in North America.
How long will broadcasters sustain the expenses of operating and maintaining HD radio service with virtually no listeners or revenue?
In spite of what Clear Channel's Littlejohn claims from his listener tests, listeners can detect the difference when fidelity is cut in half.
If what Littlejohn said about people not being abel to hear the difference between high fidelity and low fidelity was true, then there is no need for destructive HD radio.
The public is just not buying into the HD radio deception.
HD radio is not radio's salvation, but rather accelerating it's self destruction.

 

[LinoNYC]

How does cutting AM fidelity in half improve AM fidelity?

Why don't we skip the childish semantic games.

At best iboc gives it some chance to hold it's own against the likel migration of even news and talk to FM.

....replace the estimated over 1 Billion analog radios in North America.

Boy, that number gets bigger all the time.

The most reliable estimate of working and used radios in the USA was one I read several years ago from the RETMA which gave that number at 500M.

How long will broadcasters sustain the expenses of operating and maintaining HD radio service with virtually no listeners or revenue?

Realisticly, AM can only carry the main channel program and at this point the FM subs are just programed from a rack server. Some FMs will probably end up renting out one or more of these streams. This was done for decades via SCA's and all it takes is a small dedicated often professional listenership to make it self sustaining.

The public is just not buying into the HD radio deception.

Because the existing IBOC radios are: Poor performers, and not designed for how the public now buys a radio. Improve performance, integrate iboc into, clock radios, boom boxes and Home Theater systems at reasonable prices, and they'll sell.

I regularly hear bad-to-awful FM reception here in town, both in my commercial installations and at friends homes. I live in a canyon of high rises here on the upper east side of Manhattan, the multipath is a constant problem even with antennas such a Terk and BIC beambox good reception is a trial. FM iboc is quite effective at eliminating this. If you think that people won't notice the difference you're wrong.

I, like most radio fans have afond memories of dx'ing distant stations, in my case on Grundig sets at the beach in Montaulk and Lake George on summer nights. AM is still a part of my daily listening (WNYC, WCBS) but reality is that many of the smaller AMs won't be here in ten years time and if there is to be anything worth listening to on those remaining the sound that the consumer hears has to improve.

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

How does cutting AM fidelity in half improve AM fidelity?

Why don't we skip the childish semantic games.
Answer-Why is maintaining High Fidelity on analog AM a "semantic game"?

At best iboc gives it some chance to hold it's own against the likel migration of even news and talk to FM.
Answer-If AM radio's only salvation is HD radio, then I would say it has almost no chance.

....replace the estimated over 1 Billion analog radios in North America.

Boy, that number gets bigger all the time.

Answer-North America is larger then just the USA. Read more carefully before you post.

The most reliable estimate of working and used radios in the USA was one I read several years ago from the RETMA which gave that number at 500M.
Answer-Additional radios are sold each year in all the countries in NORTH AMERICA.

How long will broadcasters sustain the expenses of operating and maintaining HD radio service with virtually no listeners or revenue?

Realisticly, AM can only carry the main channel program and at this point the FM subs are just programed from a rack server. Some FMs will probably end up renting out one or more of these streams. This was done for decades via SCA's and all it takes is a small dedicated often professional listenership to make it self sustaining.
Answer-A doubtful premise. FMeXtra makes a much cheaper and better STEREO digital SCA system. www.dreinc.com

The public is just not buying into the HD radio deception.

Because the existing IBOC radios are: Poor performers, and not designed for how the public now buys a radio. Improve performance, integrate iboc into, clock radios, boom boxes and Home Theater systems at reasonable prices, and they'll sell.
Answer-I agree with everything in this paragraph execept the end that said HD radios will sell. The public has too many much more beneficial entertainment and information alternatives then to buy HD radios to pick up a few additional poorly programed short range HD stations.
I regularly hear bad-to-awful FM reception here in town, both in my commercial installations and at friends homes. I live in a canyon of high rises here on the upper east side of Manhattan, the multipath is a constant problem even with antennas such a Terk and BIC beambox good reception is a trial. FM iboc is quite effective at eliminating this. If you think that people won't notice the difference you're wrong.
Answer-Many HD radio owners claim having even more problems and trouble getting the digital HD signals then they do getting analog. My visits to stores displaying HD radios prove that the analog comes in on their HD radios whild the digital HD signals often do not.
I, like most radio fans have afond memories of dx'ing distant stations, in my case on Grundig sets at the beach in Montaulk and Lake George on summer nights. AM is still a part of my daily listening (WNYC, WCBS) but reality is that many of the smaller AMs won't be here in ten years time and if there is to be anything worth listening to on those remaining the sound that the consumer hears has to improve.
Answer-Analog audio on Low-Fi HD AM stations are giving High-Fidelity non-HD stations the edge, as long as they are not jammed by the adjacent channel buzz from HD stations. Reducing analog fidelity of AM stations to accommodate HD will just accelerate AM's decline.

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

How does cutting AM fidelity in half improve AM fidelity?

Why don't we skip the childish semantic games.
Answer-Why is maintaining High Fidelity on analog AM a "semantic game"?

At best iboc gives it some chance to hold it's own against the likel migration of even news and talk to FM.
Answer-If AM radio's only salvation is HD radio, then I would say it has almost no chance.

....replace the estimated over 1 Billion analog radios in North America.

Boy, that number gets bigger all the time.

Answer-North America is larger then just the USA. Read more carefully before you post.

The most reliable estimate of working and used radios in the USA was one I read several years ago from the RETMA which gave that number at 500M.
Answer-Additional radios are sold each year in all the countries in NORTH AMERICA.

How long will broadcasters sustain the expenses of operating and maintaining HD radio service with virtually no listeners or revenue?

Realisticly, AM can only carry the main channel program and at this point the FM subs are just programed from a rack server. Some FMs will probably end up renting out one or more of these streams. This was done for decades via SCA's and all it takes is a small dedicated often professional listenership to make it self sustaining.
Answer-A doubtful premise. FMeXtra makes a much cheaper and better STEREO digital SCA system. www.dreinc.com

The public is just not buying into the HD radio deception.

Because the existing IBOC radios are: Poor performers, and not designed for how the public now buys a radio. Improve performance, integrate iboc into, clock radios, boom boxes and Home Theater systems at reasonable prices, and they'll sell.
Answer-I agree with everything in this paragraph execept the end that said HD radios will sell. The public has too many much more beneficial entertainment and information alternatives then to buy HD radios to pick up a few additional poorly programed short range HD stations.
I regularly hear bad-to-awful FM reception here in town, both in my commercial installations and at friends homes. I live in a canyon of high rises here on the upper east side of Manhattan, the multipath is a constant problem even with antennas such a Terk and BIC beambox good reception is a trial. FM iboc is quite effective at eliminating this. If you think that people won't notice the difference you're wrong.
Answer-Many HD radio owners claim having even more problems and trouble getting the digital HD signals then they do getting analog. My visits to stores displaying HD radios prove that the analog comes in on their HD radios while the digital HD signals often do not.
I, like most radio fans have afond memories of dx'ing distant stations, in my case on Grundig sets at the beach in Montaulk and Lake George on summer nights. AM is still a part of my daily listening (WNYC, WCBS) but reality is that many of the smaller AMs won't be here in ten years time and if there is to be anything worth listening to on those remaining the sound that the consumer hears has to improve.
Answer-Analog audio on Low-Fi HD AM stations are giving High-Fidelity non-HD stations the edge, as long as they are not jammed by the adjacent channel buzz from HD stations. Reducing analog fidelity of AM stations to accommodate HD will just accelerate AM's decline.

Lino

 

[LinoNYC]

Answer-Why is maintaining High Fidelity on analog AM a "semantic game"?

Because, as you well know we are discussing two different systems: analog Am vs. IBOC. AM's fidelity is already considered poor and beneath consideration by 90% of the public as a whole and all but approx 2% of the youngest listeners.

If receiver quality had been maintained to the level that I grew up with, the situation would be different.

Answer-If AM radio's only salvation is HD radio, then I would say it has almost no chance.

I don't agree. If IBOC receiver performance is improved and cost reduced to the level that it is comparable to existing sets of similar type -all very do-able, AM can hold on to the formats it has and gain enough to survive.

Answer-North America is larger then just the USA. Read more carefully before you post.

Answer-Additional radios are sold each year in all the countries in NORTH AMERICA

You are reaching here and the answer is almost a waste of time.

Unless Canada and/or Mexico adopt AM IBOC and start selling radios internally the only relevant area is the USA and a few treaty protected stations along the border regions.

Answer-I agree with everything in this paragraph execept the end that said HD radios will sell. The public has too many much more beneficial entertainment and information alternatives then to buy HD radios to pick up a few additional poorly programed short range HD stations.

People in this counry but tens of millions of radios each year. If as stated before IBOC is incorporated into the type of sets that are bought and properly priced, they'll sell just as an adjunct the same as stereo on a clock radio.

My visits to stores displaying HD radios prove that the analog comes in on their HD radios while the digital HD signals often do not.

SAme here I visited five radio shack stores and found I was able to get digital reception in only one. Poor receiver performance is only part of the problem. Inept set of all receiver is common, in every consumer electronics store you'll note out of phase speakers, grossly misadjusted tone conrols, mistuned receivers, often with no antenna.

Somehow all this junk gets sold anyway.

Answer-Analog audio on Low-Fi HD AM stations are giving High-Fidelity non-HD stations the edge,....

To those of us with good receivers, to the rest (majority) it and AM are ignored.

Lino

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

AM's fidelity is already considered poor and beneath consideration by 90% of the public as a whole and all but approx 2% of the youngest listeners.

If receiver quality had been maintained to the level that I grew up with, the situation would be different.

Wrong. The public as a whole doesn't care about the fidelity, because the programming currently running on AM stations doesn't need it. Those who listen to AM radio (and in many markets, AMs are still top-5 stations in the ratings) don't give a hoot in hell about fidelity. As long as the voices are understandable, the stations have substantial audiences and make money. Just look where the vast majority of sports play-by-play resides. Just look at where the all-news and all-sports operations live. Those formats are money machines, and the vast majority are NOT in the FM band.

If IBOC receiver performance is improved and cost reduced to the level that it is comparable to existing sets of similar type -all very do-able, AM can hold on to the formats it has and gain enough to survive.

Wrong again. The only way AM will survive is if the programming works, and starts appealing to people under 50. AM's demos right now are horrible. AM will not survive merely because of a questionable tech that wreaks havoc with the AM band and causes interference to the 800-million-plus analog radios currently in the hands of consumers.

If as stated before IBOC is incorporated into the type of sets that are bought and properly priced, they'll sell just as an adjunct the same as stereo on a clock radio.

Dream on. If HD radios don't drastically improve in sensitivity and their ability to receive HD signals without external antennas...and QUICKLY...they are a dead product. The idea that someone will actually hook an external antenna to a radio, when they haven't had to for the last 30 years or so, is absolutely laughable and demonstrates an abysmal ignorance of how people buy and use radios. Such radios will be a waste of time for 99% of the general population. They won't waste time fiddling with antennas. They're return the product. It's already happening. Many retail operations are reporting nearly 100% returns.

Inept set of all receiver is common, in every consumer electronics store you'll note out of phase speakers, grossly misadjusted tone conrols, mistuned receivers, often with no antenna.

Somehow all this junk gets sold anyway.

Really? Quote us some sales figures...and I want to see net sales figures, which include returns. From what I've seen and heard, these products are being returned to stores in droves. Prove me wrong.

BTW, one of the "consumer electronics stores" I was in recently was Tweeter, a high-end audio and video dealer. Their systems were perfectly set up, included external (rooftop) antennas, were less than 15 miles from the HD transmitter sites...and were still deaf on HD signals. Yeah, that speaks well for the product, doesn't it? Even with a rooftop antenna (something people will not waste time with for a radio) it wouldn't work.

This particular emperor is stark naked.

 

[davideduardo]

The public as a whole doesn't care about the fidelity, because the programming currently running on AM stations doesn't need it.

So, why, when KTAR in Phoenix moved to FM, did the 25-54 numbers double? Do you think it might be that the under-55 group likes the format, but does not like AM quality? I can give you a couple of dozen other examples, if you say one station is not proof. Markets like Dayton, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Jacksonville, DC, Tallahassee, SLC, etc.

Those who listen to AM radio (and in many markets, AMs are still top-5 stations in the ratings)

But you are only looking at 12+ numbers, useless for sales. Sales is based on 18-49 and 25-54 or some subset of these demos. WGN, #2 in Chicago 12+, is not even top 20 in the sales demos. Most of the "Top 5" AMs you are thinking of, if not all of them, are not top 5 in sales demos.

don't give a hoot in hell about fidelity.

As stated, under age 55, the definitely do.

As long as the voices are understandable, the stations have substantial audiences and make money.

They have substantial over-55 audience, and almost without exception their revenues are dropping.

The only way AM will survive is if the programming works, and starts appealing to people under 50. AM's demos right now are horrible. AM will not survive merely because of a questionable tech that wreaks havoc with the AM band and causes interference to the 800-million-plus analog radios currently in the hands of consumers.

AM analog can not appeal to under-50's. It sounds awful.

Dream on. If HD radios don't drastically improve in sensitivity and their ability to receive HD signals without external antennas...and QUICKLY...they are a dead product.

My OEM car radio, which is third generation, carries every full signal AM or FM HD station waaaaay beyond the market they are in. Soon, portables and smaller radios with the Samsung chip, which is 4th generation, will be available (Q2 of '08) and they will be even more sensitive... and the junk like the BA will be a memory.

BTW, one of the "consumer electronics stores" I was in recently was Tweeter, a high-end audio and video dealer.

So high end they are closing stores all over the place, as they are losing money.

 

[LinoNYC]

Well "dumber" you have atleast lived up to your handle.

The public as a whole doesn't care about the fidelity, because the programming currently running on AM stations doesn't need it. Those who listen to AM radio (and in many markets, AMs are still top-5 stations in the ratings) don't give a hoot in hell about fidelity. As long as the voices are understandable, the stations have substantial audiences and make money. Just look where the vast majority of sports play-by-play resides. Just look at where the all-news and all-sports operations live. Those formats are money machines, and the vast majority are NOT in the FM band.

We'll try it again, AM has 10% of the nationwide audience and only 2% pf the youngest listeners.

Here in NYC, WINS (all news) is top-ten in listeners and #2 in billing. But it too is having trouble with it's demo's.

The only way AM will survive is if the programming works, and starts appealing to people under 50. AM's demos right now are horrible.

Atleast you understand the problem.

Here in NY the leading news-talker is WABC, it's median is around 60 yrs/old most of the ads are for sexual dysfunction, baldness "cures" get out of debt and work from home schemes,,, you get the picture. That BTW doesn't include the 11 hr they rent outright each weekend.
It's rival WOR is similar.

Really? Quote us some sales figures...and I want to see net sales figures, which include returns. From what I've seen and heard, these products are being returned to stores in droves. Prove me wrong.

Sorry, I don't jump through hoops. You have a bit of nerve to demand "proof" when you make a statement such as:

Many retail operations are reporting nearly 100% returns. And:

BTW, one of the "consumer electronics stores" I was in recently was Tweeter, a high-end audio and video dealer. Their systems were perfectly set up, included external (rooftop) antennas, were less than 15 miles from the HD transmitter sites...and were still deaf on HD signals.

Either your "high end" store has a dfective radio, doesn't have it set up properly or someone here is lying.

Last November I bought a Radio Shack "Acurian" I get digital onall the NYC iboc FM's with just the supplied dipole. On AM the supplied cheap 4'' loop I get reliable iboc on 4 of the five iboc stations.

The fact that alot of people consider this system to be stillborn is beside the point. If, as I said before, receiver cost/performanced equation is improved, and the system is integrated into the sort of sets that are bought, it will gradually become mainstream. Big "ifs".

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Answer-Why is maintaining High Fidelity on analog AM a "semantic game"?

1-Because, as you well know we are discussing two different systems: analog Am vs. IBOC. AM's fidelity is already considered poor and beneath consideration by 90% of the public as a whole and all but approx 2% of the youngest listeners.

If receiver quality had been maintained to the level that I grew up with, the situation would be different.
...
Lino

So your anti-semantic.
1-AM's analog transmission fidelity was much better before HD radio cut it in half and added digital noise, and was even better before NRSC limited it to 10kHz. There were AM transmitters that had typical frequency response from 30-15,000 Hz, and distortion of 1%, with no digital hiss or buzz. Now you say HD radio is here to put back the bandwidth and fidelity that it destroyed, all you have to do is buy one of their short range, problematic, overpriced, expensive, failed high school science project, HD radios, and put up with fuzzy highs caused by low bitrate codec artifacts.
An AM radio that has great fidelity and has been around for 100 years is the $3 crystal set, and it's range and necessity of an external antenna make it comparable or better then an HD radio because pure analog AM has no digital encoding artifacts (certainly crystal sets are more power saving and simpler).
On my GE SuperRadio in wideband mode AM HD stations sound like crap and non-HD stations sound better then HD, without the complexity, digital delay, expense, fuzzy distorted low bitate codec artifacts, rebuffering, foldback switching from analog to digital, or buying a new radio. The suburban 1kw daytimer now sounds much better with high fidelity analog then the major market HD 50 kw stations limited to half bandwith with digital hiss.
So you say reception fidelity depends on what radio you buy. Well, that's always been the case, hasn't it?
Full AM fidelity should be required and choice of radios should be left up to the consumer and not decided by the HD cartel. Expensive HD radios should not become incompatible and obsolete each year.
But if AM transmission fidelity is brick wall filtered at 5kHz then all AM radios sound equally poor on all analog radios. But that is part of the HD cartel's campaign of deception, isn't it?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Answer-If AM radio's only salvation is HD radio, then I would say it has almost no chance.

Lino:

I don't agree. If IBOC receiver performance is improved and cost reduced to the level that it is comparable to existing sets of similar type -all very do-able,

I can buy an analog radio at the dollar store, when will HD reception be included free?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Correction to my post 2 above:

But if AM transmission fidelity is brick wall filtered at 5kHz then all AM radios stations sound equally poor on all analog radios. But that is part of the HD cartel's campaign of deception, isn't it?

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

You have a bit of nerve to demand "proof" when you make a statement such as:

Many retail operations are reporting nearly 100% returns.

YOU were the one asserting that the HD radios are selling. I just asked you to prove it. The evidence of the "nearly 100% returns" is everywhere...in message boards, remailers and blogs. I've also talked to about a dozen store managers about it. This dog won't hunt.

And:

BTW, one of the "consumer electronics stores" I was in recently was Tweeter, a high-end audio and video dealer. Their systems were perfectly set up, included external (rooftop) antennas, were less than 15 miles from the HD transmitter sites...and were still deaf on HD signals.

Either your "high end" store has a dfective radio, doesn't have it set up properly or someone here is lying.

Since you weren't there...and I was...and I have almost 40 years in broadcast engineering under my belt...you have no idea what you're talking about. They did everything right, and it still didn't work. You also fail to see that your comments are horrifically prophetic. How many people are going to unpack a radio and bother to go through a "setup" procedure, when the last 30 years of conditioning have produced the attitude "unpack the radio, plug it in or insert the batteries, turn it on, it works?" If the radio in the store is indeed defective, what does that say about it, and the fact that a high-end audio/video store has it on display? Is a consumer who unpacks a new product and finds its defective, or worse, sees this display in the store, going to get a good first impression of that product? Is he going to keep it, or return it to the store? Is he going to keep bringing the bad ones back until he gets a new one, or is he more likely to just give up on it?

My OEM car radio, which is third generation, carries every full signal AM or FM HD station waaaaay beyond the market they are in. Soon, portables and smaller radios with the Samsung chip, which is 4th generation, will be available (Q2 of '08) and they will be even more sensitive... and the junk like the BA will be a memory.

...long after the first impressions have already been made. How many of the owners of the 800-million-plus analog radios in the US can afford a BMW?

So high end they are closing stores all over the place, as they are losing money.

Irrelevant. This one is still open and will not be closing with the rest of them. But, for the sake of discussion, let's assume they blew the setup somewhere (which they didn't, in this case). How are the big-box retailers (i.e., Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart, etc.), which tend to employ close-to-minimum-wage sales people, going to get it right, if a place with knowledgeable people like Tweeter can't get it right? How many times do *I* have to educate sales people in the big-box stores as to what HD Radio is, when I go in there asking for one and they steer me over to satellite radios?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Quote
....replace the estimated over 1 Billion analog radios in North America.

LinoNYC-Boy, that number gets bigger all the time.

Supercaster's Answer-North America is larger then just the USA. Read more carefully before you post.

LinoNYC-The most reliable estimate of working and used radios in the USA was one I read several years ago from the RETMA which gave that number at 500M.

Supercaster's Answer-Additional radios are sold each year in all the countries in NORTH AMERICA.

North America is not just the USA. What's so hard to understand?

LinoNYC:

You are reaching here and the answer is almost a waste of time.

Unless Canada and/or Mexico adopt AM IBOC and start selling radios internally the only relevant area is the USA and a few treaty protected stations along the border regions.

Reaching where, and for what?
According to iBiquity, the HD cartel, HD proponents and supporters HD radio is being broadcast on an interim or experimental basis (the same as it was here in the USA) in Canada and Mexico.
David Eduardo claims station(s?) in Mexico City, far from the border are broadcasting in HD. Are you claiming this is just another deception from HD supporters?
I don't see where there are any legal restrictions on HD radio sales in Canada or Mexico, and they certainly are available by telephone order, mail order, internet sales and probably in stores, if not now, then soon.

 

[LinoNYC]

dumber writes:

Since you weren't there...and I was...and I have almost 40 years in broadcast engineering under my belt...you have no idea what you're talking about. They did everything right, and it still didn't work.

That quote raises one question and answers another.

Why would a so-called "high end" store display a product that doesn't work? I have seen this repeatedly at places like Radio Shack, not at true high end store such as those in my neighborhood.

and I have almost 40 years in broadcast engineering under my belt

......and you don't want no "new toys" in "your" sandbox.

This is exactly the mentality I encountered when I started working in professional theater after NYU in 1980.

Many of the "old timers" were opposed to new tech. No computerized lighting, no thryistor dimmers,no automated fly systems, etc..

Reality was that by that time Broadway was hurting, in part because audiences now used cinema and TV as the standard and you couldn't create such visuals on a 40ft stage using the same tech that these guys has used since the late 1940's.

AM radio is in exactly the same situation, more dire infact.

dumber goes on:

How many people are going to unpack a radio and bother to go through a "setup" procedure, when the last 30 years of conditioning have produced the attitude "unpack the radio, plug it in or insert the batteries, turn it on, it works?"

Have you had any experience with these radios? When I bought the acurian, I took it out of the box, plugged in the dipole then the power supply, plugged it in pressed "on". Tuning is exactly the same as any digital display radio.



"SUPERCASTER" writes:

North America is not just the USA. What's so hard to understand?

We're talking across each other, the fact is that IBOC is currently only a factor in the USA. And discussion that brings the entire North America beyond the siiue of cross-border interference is irrelevant unless those countries adopt iboc and sell the sets internally.

According to iBiquity, the HD cartel, HD proponents and supporters HD radio is being broadcast on an interim or experimental basis (the same as it was here in the USA) in Canada and Mexico.
David Eduardo claims station(s?) in Mexico City, far from the border are broadcasting in HD. Are you claiming this is just another deception from HD supporters?
I don't see where there are any legal restrictions on HD radio sales in Canada or Mexico, and they certainly are available by telephone order, mail order, internet sales and probably in stores, if not now, then soon.

In the words of a president you probably admire "there you go again"

These broadcasts are experimental and limited in scope.

http://www.bdcast.com/news/?o=full&news_id=131

Mexican AM is in similar dire straits and US. Because of my business I know over a hundred Mexican nationals some are close friends, almost none listened to AM radio back home they do listen up here because that is where Mexican shows are to be found,, 'till earlier this year when "Que Buena" at 92.7 went on, now most of those who can receive that station's spotty signal are tuned there. Another loss for AM.



I'am not wild about compressed digital formats such a iboc especially the AM version, however if you look at the history of consumer-acceptable audio ie; cheap turntables, eight tracks and cassettes, even AM iboc represents an improvement and at this point, AM hasn't got much to lose.

BTW; I'am a WASP, ofcourse I'am "anti-semantic."

Lino

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Why would a so-called "high end" store display a product that doesn't work? I have seen this repeatedly at places like Radio Shack, not at true high end store such as those in my neighborhood.

Same thing occurred to me, and that's precisely the point. My guess is that the parent company said to the store managers "we're going to be selling these, so set them up the right way for a floor demo." What they probably didn't say to the store managers was what to do with them if they didn't work. Just a guess, though. BTW, the store has a line-of-sight path of about 12 miles to an antenna farm with about half a dozen stations running HD on FM.

......and you don't want no "new toys" in "your" sandbox.

I've been installing "new toys" for my entire career, and I have no objection to the concept of "new toys" whatsoever. However, as a professional, I refuse to install "new toys" which by their design cause my station to crap on its neighbors. We had a concept way back when I was learning my trade: good engineering practice. A large part of what was considered good engineering practice was deliberately avoiding interfering with other stations close to yours. Obviously iBiquity and the FCC don't practice it anymore...heck, they probably don't even know what it means. For the sake of today's buzz word, "digital," they're apparently more than willing to dump on the owners of (by iBiquity's own estimates) 800-million-plus analog radios.

Have you had any experience with these radios? When I bought the acurian, I took it out of the box, plugged in the dipole then the power supply, plugged it in pressed "on". Tuning is exactly the same as any digital display radio.

I bought three of them (one was an Accurian)...and returned all three to the stores in disgust. They were deaf...with the supplied external antennas. I live in a large metro area, less than 20 miles from most of the transmitter sites that serve the metro. There is an FM signal of just under 30 mV/m at my house, and yet all three radios could not decode the HD signal consistently. There is an AM signal of 20.9 mV/m at my house, and again all three radios could not lock onto the HD signal. Neither of those signals are any kind of strain for any of my analog radios, including a cheap GE clock radio.

 

[LinoNYC]

If you disagree, fine. You don't need to be rude. Many of us here are seasoned broadcasters who are a lot brighter than you give us credit for.

Ok, fair enough, we'll start by keeping things honest.

When I posted on 7-30 about the effects of electrical storms on iboc, I pointed out the deficiencies in claims that the system was impervious to interference.

All was OK here.

But at the top of this thread I presented an aircheck and dared to state: AM IBOC isn't totally artifact-free,, nothing at these low (34k) bitrates can be, but for the sort of typical, casual listening it seems quite acceptable.

The self-appointed guardians of Am's dimming flame jumped into the same midless screed that I have read for atleast four years now.

As for AM radio, it has been dying for more than 30 years. With its interference on four adjacent frequencies, HD radio will actually speed the process to oblivion

Thats correct, AM broadcasters gave up on attracting young listeners around 1980 and went instead after our parent's generation, the last generation that finds AM acceptable. They have for the most part aged-out of advertiser interest and begun dying themselves.

I wrote on an old engineering bbs back in 1999 that Congress should pass a "wide band mandate" for receivers above a certain price level, later I was made aware of signal processing technology that could reduce impulse noise and improve response, Motorola's "Symphony" system.

http://radiomagonline.com/departments/radio_motorola_symphony_digital/

Nothing so-far has come of this. Iboc is what we have. I have heard all of the released consumer AM systems, from various compandor schemes back in the early 1970s thru A-Max, and the various flavors of AM stereo.

The best of the AM stereo receivers such as the my Carver my KLH 12 and my parent's old Fisher 800(1961) do sound better than AM iboc but they require a strong signal to operate sucessfully in wideband mode, just like current iboc,
even then forget about wideband during a storm.

Locally we have 5 Am "hd" stations 660, 710, 770, 820 and 880. There is a weak 740 WNYH which is quite listenable and is unaffected by the sidebands of either 710 or 770.

BTW: as far as sideband splashing, back in 1972 woR(710) complained that WABC (770) was so hot that it was splashing on them, WABC started filtering their carted music it sounded like azimuth misalinement.

IBOC currently has the hallmarks of another AM fiasco however my point has been that if the next generation of LSI iboc chips are cheap-er it will permit this system to be imcorporated into most consumer devices. That is when we'll know if AM has a future.

Lino