Wal-Mart Rolls Out HD Digital Radio

[radiopilot]

The only product Wal-Mart will be selling in terms of HD radios is the 'JVC HD-W10 Mobile HD Radio Receiver'.

http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php?newscontent=56

All this time I had the impression they were going to sell Accurians, BA Receptors, Sangeans, etc....

At the rate that consumers go to Wal-Mart to buy their 'high end' audio systems for their cars... I'd say it's ditto... :

Good Luck!

Radiopilot

 

[Mike Walker]

Wal Mart already sells Boston Acoustics (check their website). Accurian is a Radio Shack house brand. Geez!

 

[R.F. Burns]

If these guys really believed that HD radio wasn't a threat to their interests, they wouldn't keep digging this garbage up.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

If these guys really believed that HD radio wasn't a threat to their interests, they wouldn't keep digging this garbage up.

My only interest is continued clear local radio reception without HD radio buzzing up and down my radio dial, as it is now doing.
If HD supporters had no interests in HD Radio they would not keep peddling destructive HD technology with their false promotional garbage, and grossly inflated HD hype.

 

[Mike Walker]

Again you must be speaking of HD AM (when addressing "buzz"), because I'd really like an explanation of how FM RADIO could be induced to "buzz" by the inclusion of HD! By design, they reject any modulation EXCEPT frequency modulation.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Mike why are you so unable to hear the hash on either side of an FM Channel using HD? Its there and you can deny it all you like but its still there! So go lie to someone else about its not being present. Its there on every station is Sacramento using HD on AM or FM. What's your problem? Or are you just stuck on Stupid?

 

[R.F. Burns]

Mike why are you so unable to hear the hash on either side of an FM Channel using HD? Its there and you can deny it all you like but its still there! So go lie to someone else about its not being present. Its there on every station is Sacramento using HD on AM or FM. What's your problem? Or are you just stuck on Stupid?

And how many first adjacents do you listen to in Sacramento? Here in NYC there are no first adjacent stations audible with or without IBOC. I'm refering to the commercial FM band not the educational band. I've lost no stations thanks to Iboc. To repeat when the exicter is turned off all I hear on first adjacents using a normal radio is hiss. Seems like the FCC sure screwed things up outside of NYC I guess.

 

[slim101]

I have translators in a larger market that are co-located with 2nd adjacent C1's running HD.
The HD signals manifest themselves as a significant decrease in the signal to noise of the affected translators on typical car radios.

I realize that this is caused to some extent by the bandwidth of the receiver, but as I said, it is a 'typical" receiver.
The loss of coverage for the translators is significant. Its another way for the big guys to limit competition from rim-shot stations.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I have translators in a larger market that are co-located with 2nd adjacent C1's running HD.
The HD signals manifest themselves as a significant decrease in the signal to noise of the affected translators on typical car radios.

I realize that this is caused to some extent by the bandwidth of the receiver, but as I said, it is a 'typical" receiver.
The loss of coverage for the translators is significant. Its another way for the big guys to limit competition from rim-shot stations.

Uhhh and who is interfering with whom? You are licenced to covera a certain area. I'm not sure what kind of protection translators are afforded. We have 2 translators in the NY area that I am aware of. They are both very low power and have limited coverage but that's what translators are. There are no first adjacent translators in this area.

 

[clouseau]

Uhhh and who is interfering with whom? You are licenced to covera a certain area. I'm not sure what kind of protection translators are afforded.

The short answer is. NOTHING. If a translator goes HD and interferes with a station, tough for the translator, fix it or die. If the station goes HD and interferes with the translator you have two choices as a translator. Live with it or sign off.

We have 2 translators in the NY area that I am aware of. They are both very low power and have limited coverage but that's what translators are. There are no first adjacent translators in this area.

Translators are secondary. If they cause ANY problem, they are gone. That's why you don't see 1st adjacent translators. Someone complains and they are vapor.

Clouseau

 

[Mike Walker]

Why am I so unable to hear the hash on either side of HD FM? Because it isn't there. I actually had a friend at an FM HD station turn the HD on and off while I monitored the first and second adjacents. Nothing. And I mean NOTHING "came or went". YAWN! If you hear lots of noise from FM HD, it's because you have a VERY cheap/poor quality radio, because those are the only ones which exhibit reduced performance.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

I have to disagree here. I can hear the hash on first-adjacents with every FM radio I own, and the higher-quality the receiver, the more I hear it. It's not super easy to distinguish from normal thermal noise, but I can assure you that I can hear the difference. Long before I had an HD Radio, I could easily tell using any FM radio which stations were running IBOC.

 

[Chuck]

I started to write a post suggesting that perhaps digital radios were deaf to the IBOC sidebands, and analog radios are not. I was getting ready to hit the "post" button when I thought I'd verify my thesis. I connected up some headphones (Sony 7506's) to my Sangean HDT-1 tuner through a small headphone pre-amp (Rolls PM-50S). Tuning up and down from the only HD station I can get, (KDAQ Shreveport - NPR station with very high engineering standards), revealed the truth. The digital noise is clearly audible on the sidebands. No ifs, ands or buts. It is clearly there and it is nasty sounding.

Using the same set up tuned to an analog only station, there is no such interference on adjacent channels. I've made a very good living trusting my ears for about 40 years. The digital noise is there. Perhaps Mikes Accurian HD radio rejects it, but the Sangean sure doesn't, nor does the premium GM-Bose analog radio in my car.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I started to write a post suggesting that perhaps digital radios were deaf to the IBOC sidebands, and analog radios are not. I was getting ready to hit the "post" button when I thought I'd verify my thesis. I connected up some headphones (Sony 7506's) to my Sangean HDT-1 tuner through a small headphone pre-amp (Rolls PM-50S). Tuning up and down from the only HD station I can get, (KDAQ Shreveport - NPR station with very high engineering standards), revealed the truth. The digital noise is clearly audible on the sidebands. No ifs, ands or buts. It is clearly there and it is nasty sounding.

Using the same set up tuned to an analog only station, there is no such interference on adjacent channels. I've made a very good living trusting my ears for about 40 years. The digital noise is there. Perhaps Mikes Accurian HD radio rejects it, but the Sangean sure doesn't, nor does the premium GM-Bose analog radio in my car.

I get strong HD radio buzz on both adjacent channels for each AM or FM HD station, and on every radio. 2 channels of LOUD buzz for each channel transmitting HD. What a noisy mess all over the radio dials, and HD still can't be received well on digital HD radios inside buildings without extra outdoor antennas.
I find it hard to believe that Mike can't hear it, everyone else does, who is not deep in denial. Perhaps he is too far away from the HD stations.

 

[Chuck]

I get strong HD radio buzz on both adjacent channels for each AM or FM HD station, and on every radio. 2 channels of LOUD buzz for each channel transmitting HD. What a noisy mess all over the radio dials, and HD still can't be received well on digital HD radios inside buildings without extra outdoor antennas.

The adjacent channel noise is what I find unacceptable about this system. As I’ve said many times before, I have no problem with the concept. It is the execution that is the problem. If you are a high power station, this technology works, but it does so at the expense of others. For lower power Class A's, Class D's LPFM’s, some NCE stations, and lots of translators it is a real problem. And then there is the AM band...

It is no secret to many of you that I am involved with a LPFM station. We're on 104.7. In a neighboring community a little less than 20 miles away is another LPFM on 104.9. We're friends, which is a good thing. On a good day, we can be received at their location, and vice versa. Now you'd think that would be a problem, especially at the mid point between the two stations. As it works out it does not seem to be a problem at all. Most cheap radios don't receive either signal very well at that distance. On the other hand, car radios don't have any problem with it. You can easily receive either station on a decent car radio with no interference from the other station. That's almost a miracle, but it is true.

On the other hand, if either of us were foolish enough to go HD, we'd wipe the other out for quite some distance. Luckily, neither of us have the incentive to do this, so all will be well as long as I'm still occupying space above ground. Still the potential for self destruction is there.

Now I know RF and others will say "Yeah, but you are a secondary service and aren't afforded protection from interference, and you knew that when you got into it." That's true, but it doesn't help the people who actually listen to either station - and they do listen, Arbitron will bear that out. So the bottom line is quite a few people could lose what they consider to be a valuable radio service. How is that in the public interest?

By the way there are about 960 LPFM stations and maybe another 100 Class D FM stations on the air around the country. That's almost as many stations as there are HD broadcasters. Further, NCE FM stations can be as low power as 100 watts at 100 feet, so many of them are also quite low power, even though they may have large audiences and are NPR affiliates. There may be hundreds of NCE stations that fall into that category. There are also thousands of translators (3500 or so if I recall correctly) with a lot more on their way. HD is not going to be viable for most of them. I have no idea how many Class A's there are, nor do I know how many local 1 kW AM's there are, but all totaled up, it is a very large number of stations that may potentially pay the penalty for the digital extravagance of others. The HD technology we have adopted does nothing to help any of them and may mortally wound many. That doesn’t seem right.

 

[Mike Walker]

HD "BUZZ" on FM? I doubt it, because if interference was audible on FM, I doubt seriously it would be in the form of a "buzz". What would be the mechanism of this "buzz"? FM detectors are sensitive only to FM! How would the "buzz" be modulated? Now on AM, sure. But FM? PROVE IT! Post a recording of a "buzz" on an FM adjacent. I won't hold my breath!

I've tried like hell to hear something, ANYTHING amiss on an adjacent channel to local HD, and I'll be damned if I can. By the way...if you want to claim interference from HD, here's a way to be credible...claim that you hear more noise when you listen to an HD station on your analog Walkman. These radios are the only ones DEMONSTRATED to actually sound poorer because of HD...the very cheapest of stereo circuits. S/N ratio can suffer as much as 20db on really cheap analog fm stereo radios when tuned to a station that's broadcasting in HD. THIS IS ACTUALLY REAL. Just a little hint. If you want to claim you hear "interference", claim to hear something that's POSSIBLE!

 

[Chuck]

HD "BUZZ" on FM? I doubt it, because if interference was audible on FM, I doubt seriously it would be in the form of a "buzz". What would be the mechanism of this "buzz"? FM detectors are sensitive only to FM! How would the "buzz" be modulated? Now on AM, sure. But FM? PROVE IT! Post a recording of a "buzz" on an FM adjacent. I won't hold my breath!

I've tried like hell to hear something, ANYTHING amiss on an adjacent channel to local HD, and I'll be damned if I can. By the way...if you want to claim interference from HD, here's a way to be credible...claim that you hear more noise when you listen to an HD station on your analog Walkman. These radios are the only ones DEMONSTRATED to actually sound poorer because of HD...the very cheapest of stereo circuits. S/N ratio can suffer as much as 20db on really cheap analog fm stereo radios when tuned to a station that's broadcasting in HD. THIS IS ACTUALLY REAL. Just a little hint. If you want to claim you hear "interference", claim to hear something that's POSSIBLE!

Stop shouting. We are here to have a rational conversation.

The noise is very obvious on the sidebands when listening on my Sangean HDT-1 Tuner. It is more of a screeching sound than it is a hiss. I can only check it out on KDAQ, because it is the only HD station I can get. Maybe they have something dreadfully wrong, but I don't think so.

When I checked it, they were running your favorite show, Prarie Home Companion. Through my headphones, it sounded very good in HD. As you told the group, it did sound better in HD than it did in analog. Even so, I'm not sure that the casual listener would ever notice since very few people listen to the radio on good headphones.

The main channel was fine, but the sidebands were just an awful mess. At the moment, I have more important things to do that figure out how to post an audio sample on a web site, but I will do it. I am not hearing things.

 

[R.F. Burns]

HD "BUZZ" on FM? I doubt it, because if interference was audible on FM, I doubt seriously it would be in the form of a "buzz". What would be the mechanism of this "buzz"? FM detectors are sensitive only to FM! How would the "buzz" be modulated? Now on AM, sure. But FM? PROVE IT! Post a recording of a "buzz" on an FM adjacent. I won't hold my breath!

I've tried like hell to hear something, ANYTHING amiss on an adjacent channel to local HD, and I'll be damned if I can. By the way...if you want to claim interference from HD, here's a way to be credible...claim that you hear more noise when you listen to an HD station on your analog Walkman. These radios are the only ones DEMONSTRATED to actually sound poorer because of HD...the very cheapest of stereo circuits. S/N ratio can suffer as much as 20db on really cheap analog fm stereo radios when tuned to a station that's broadcasting in HD. THIS IS ACTUALLY REAL. Just a little hint. If you want to claim you hear "interference", claim to hear something that's POSSIBLE!

Stop shouting. We are here to have a rational conversation.

The noise is very obvious on the sidebands when listening on my Sangean HDT-1 Tuner. It is more of a screeching sound than it is a hiss. I can only check it out on KDAQ, because it is the only HD station I can get. Maybe they have something dreadfully wrong, but I don't think so.

When I checked it, they were running your favorite show, Prarie Home Companion. Through my headphones, it sounded very good in HD. As you told the group, it did sound better in HD than it did in analog. Even so, I'm not sure that the casual listener would ever notice since very few people listen to the radio on good headphones.

The main channel was fine, but the sidebands were just an awful mess. At the moment, I have more important things to do that figure out how to post an audio sample on a web site, but I will do it. I am not hearing things.

Don't know what station you're listening to but I have the HDT-1 and no properly engineers station has problems with their sidebands like that. The Sangean can tune 89.1, 89,2, 89.3 . Most radios don't do that. They tune 89.1, 89.3, 89.5 etc. You have to tune 2 clicks in either direction from center carrier to actually get to the first ajacent.

 

[Chuck]

Don't know what station you're listening to but I have the HDT-1 and no properly engineers station has problems with their sidebands like that. The Sangean can tune 89.1, 89,2, 89.3 . Most radios don't do that. They tune 89.1, 89.3, 89.5 etc. You have to tune 2 clicks in either direction from center carrier to actually get to the first ajacent.

I noticed that it didn't tune in 200 kHz channel increments, which could be a little confusing for casual listeners. In this case, that doesn't seem to be the problem but it could cause some confusion. I just checked to see if I overlooked that. It appears that I didn't, but that first 100 kHz "click" makes a real nasty sound. Of course, that is well within the stations allotted bandwidth, so it is not a problem. Even so, the noise might wake up my grandmother if she tuned in. I think it would be a good idea if the second generation of these things conformed to regular US channel spacing. It would make them more user friendly. Perhaps it can be programmed to do that in the menu system. I will admit to doing what most people do. I took it out of the box, connected it up and switched it on. I have not read the directions. Most people won’t read them either.

I'm beginning to think the problem I'm hearing may be with the station. I wish I had another HD station to listen to. That would tell a lot. As I listened a few minutes ago, their HD feed is very distorted on voice. It has a very nasty raspy sound and high end distortion that sounds like digital clipping (if that's an appropriate term). It sure sounds like something is being over-driven. Maybe they are applying their analog 75 us pre-emphasis curve to the digital signal. That's sort of what it sounds like at the moment. It is very bright as well as distorted. The analog sounds fine.

On the same station in my car, there is a fairly loud hissing and sputtering sound on each side of their center frequency. It is louder on the upper adjacent channel than it is on the lower adjacent channel. It sounds very much like the sideband noise that is audible on analog radios AM radios when tuned to an AM HD adjacent channel. It really does appear to be quite a bit louder and slightly different in character than the normal white noise found between FM channels, not that there is much vacant space left any more.

I have to drive in to Dallas tomorrow. It would be impractical to drag the Sangean with me, but I'll give a careful listen on my car radio to see if the problem is present on other stations. There are plenty of HD signals in Dallas.

Maybe none of us are crazy....

 

[TheRover]

The only product Wal-Mart will be selling in terms of HD radios is the 'JVC HD-W10 Mobile HD Radio Receiver'.
http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php?newscontent=56

Radiopilot

I went to the WalMart website, and the JVC looks just like the JVC KD-HDR1 that I purchased from Crutchfield.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5645812

I also went to the JVC website, and the KD-HDR1 is there.... but there is no JVC HD-W10 there at this time.

http://mobile.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027691&pathId=149&page=1

But, I'm really glad that Wal-Mart has decided to go with this JVC. It's a great price for what you get. I'm so glad that my brothers around the country that shop at Wal-Mart will be able to see this unit !

Good News for HD Fans ! ! !

Model numbers aside, I think this is the same unit.