"Walk Away Renee" Which Version?

[tjthedj]

Johnny, I'm with you. Besides, this is "programming" not brain surgery. NOTHING is so black and white. Nobody is going to DIE because one or the other (or both) were played.

In Chicago the Shadows of Knight version of Gloria was played MUCH more often because they were from Chicago. Hardly ever heard "Them." In St. Louis, I heard "Them" on the oldies station,and NEVER "Shadows."

After you know the market, make a decision. Frankly, I too wouldn't see a problem playing BOTH, because they BOTH were top 20. Maybe because there are OTHER 4 Tops hits, that could be a reason to PLAY the Tops instead of the Banke.The "Banke" record is "thin" sounding compared to the Tops.

In the 70's When WIND, Chicago was oldies, they played BOTH (I know because I carted 2000 songs for them). Then all the PD used was the Billboard Top 1000 book.

 

[radiofriend1]

for goodness sake. the original post asked what we prefer. i answered with which and why

i didn't know it would start ww3

 

[tjthedj]

Hey friend,
Sorry. We are all just stating our opinions. What's wrong with that? No "war" that I can see. As I recollect, YOU had quite a strong opinion yourself. You said; "that is the one oldies should play."

 

[OldiesCat]

which Renee?

Where I'm from, they were both pretty big. Maybe a comparison to several Motown hits later done by Johnny Rivers works. "Baby I Need Your Lovin'" was a major Four Tops smash and a couple of years later Johnny Rivers' version also hit. Ditto with "The Tracks Of My Tears" by Smokey, then later again by Rivers.

That being said, the Johnny Rivers versions of those songs seem to have held up pretty well over time; in Detroit and much of the Midwest, the Tops' version of "Walk Away Renee" did OK but probably not on the same level as the Left Banke version from '66 (and, at least here, the Left Banke version gets more play than the Tops', despite Levi Stubbs' incredible vocals!). In fact, a 12-week analysis of songs played on WOMC here shows the Left Bank version getting all of the "Renee" plays, the Tops' version none. I also did a MediaBase 24-7 custom run among 15 or so good Oldies stations (WODS, WRBQ, WWSW, WMJI, etc.), and the Left Banke version was the only version played. Since these are stations I know do a lot of music research, I have to believe the Left Bank version is the preferred choice.

Lastly, since the Left Banke was a legit top 5 chart smash (me, quoting charts!), the Tops' was barely top 15 and didn't last long there around a great majority of the country. Left Banke, for most people around the U.S., is just the most familiar and comfortable version. Does that mean never play the Four Tops? No, but I've always been a big believer in "give the people what they want".

(but even I like "Pretty Ballerina" a ton better than "Renee").

 

[radiofriend1]

Hey friend,
Sorry. We are all just stating our opinions. What's wrong with that? No "war" that I can see. As I recollect, YOU had quite a strong opinion yourself. You said; "that is the one oldies should play."

**QUITE A STRONG OPINION**? it is just my opinion, nothing more. just becuz somebody disagrees with others doesn't mean their opinion is *QUITE STRONG*.
they asked, i answered, then I get told why i'm wrong

 

[tjthedj]

All I was saying was I did the same thing as you - but you compared it to ww3.

Just curious as to whats with all the spelling aberations like the use of "u" and "becuz?"

 

[surfdude]

I've tested BOTH versions of GLORIA in the same test. Both scored
about the same and with only a "FAIR" score. Mid 500s out of 1200 song test.

My guess is with only a six-second "hook", most test takers couldn't even tell the difference between the versions.

Another interesting song is MAYBE I'M AMAZED. I always test both versions, the Paul McCartney studio
version and the WINGS "live" version. They always score exactly the same. I prefer the Wings version,
but I play each version every other time. That's what I do with GLORIA as well. Creates a little more variety
using the same song.

FYI: I prefer the Four Tops version of WALK AWAY RENEE.

How about EVERLASTING LOVE? Robert Knight or Carl Carlton. I vote for CC, more uptempo.

 

[cadillacjack]

"How about EVERLASTING LOVE? Robert Knight or Carl Carlton. I vote for CC, more uptempo."

Having grown-up with 77WABC, I didn't even remember Robert Knight's version until we started playing it on an oldies station I worked at. Carl Carlton!

 

[tjthedj]

Carl wold have my vote, too. A better produced version that Knight, who had the original. Carl Carleton works well to start an hour, too - it's really UP.

 

[OldiesCat]

not quite the same comparisons

The "Gloria" comparison is similar, though they were both out at pretty much the same time. A point could be made that the Them version came out and didn't do squat but somebody had Shadows Of Knight cover it, they had a better record company push and that version became "the" hit. Later, both Dionne Warwick and Aretha had hits with "I Say A Little Prayer"; Dionne's version was first and was huge, Aretha's was mostly released and a hit in markets where there was more of an "Soul" element. But in most of today's music tests, radio listeners clearly prefer Dionne Warwick's version.

The McCartney comparison isn't even close. The studio version of "Maybe I'm Amazed" was out in 1970, the live version was released from the live "Wings Over America" double LP seven years later and that live version has clearly become the listener preferred favorite.

"Everlasting Love"? Again, different deal. Robert Knight's version came out in 1967, Carl Carlton's in 1974. The "Walk Away Renee" releases were barely two years apart.

Food for thought: it feels like a lot of the talk about this "Renee" deal is to add variety. Truth is that most listners indeed have "their" version of a song and it's nearly always the one that became the biggest hit at the time (which is why McCartney and Carl Carlton examples are not even close to this one). If oldies or classic hits stations want more variety, an alternate version here and there won't do it. They have to be deeper in their core acts and not be afraid to test songs somebody might pidgeon-hole for another format. For instance, I've talked to a lot of oldies PDs who don't play "All Right Now" by Free- great song, but to them, "it's classic rock"? Says who? It was a major top 40 hit and for oldies or '60s/'70s stations who do test it, it rocks through the roof.

Some ask, "why do you have to play just the one version of xxxxx song?". It's because that version is nearly always the one preferred by the audience, and that is who we do this for, right? Because, DJs who make this point mostly because they're tired of playing just the one version doesn't mean squat to their listeners.

 

[AZJoe]

Who decides when songs get tested that there will be 500 songs that make the grade out of 1200 songs tried? Why do only 1200 tunes get tested? Why not 3000? Why do only 500 see the light of day or make the cut? Why not 1500? I understand some songs that were huge hits dont hold up, yet the same songs seem to keep being tested and there are others out there that deserve another shot IMO. Seems like there are ways to keep oldies from getting stale and the burnout factor a bit lower.

 

[tjthedj]

Pay more, test more. Obviously, it costs more to test more songs.

Questions? Google this;"Music" "Auditorium testing"

 

[radiofriend1]

there aren't 3000 legit hits for one format, like oldies

or even 1500

maybe not even 1000

 

[tjthedj]

Actually, for oldies, 1954-1985 is around 1500 or so top 20 songs beginning with Rock Around the Clock.

 

[TheFonz]

Actually, for oldies, 1954-1985 is around 1500 or so top 20 songs beginning with Rock Around the Clock.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers. According to Billboard, about 150 songs per year made the Top 20. 150 x 30 years = 4500 songs for the time period you stated.

 

[OldiesCat]

here we go again

NEWSFLASH, gentlemen: radio listeners do not base their musical tastes in 2006 on what was on record charts 40 years ago.

A lot of songs gained chart position through the years via (yes) payola, massive record company pushl, Program Directors (and earlier in the rock & roll era) disc jockeys who liked the songs, etc. Whether it's Billboard, Cashbox, R&R or local radio station surveys, radio audiences don't decide what they like because a song hit #4 instead of #13 on some chart 3 or 4 decades ago.

There are a lot of songs that never made the Top 20 (Land Of A Thousand Dances by Wilson Pickett and But It's Alright by J.J. Jackson are two that come to mind) that are huge today. Conversely, is anybody here really thinking that the 1968 song that was #1 for about 2 months, Honey by Bobby Goldsboro, deserves regular play on Oldies in 2006?

Tell you what- we'll take your Oldies station designed by chart position vs. my Oldies station with a healthy playlist count of around 700, with the use of some Auditorium Testing so the listeners decide what's a power, secondary and so on, and I will beat you soundly every book. I totally do not believe in Oldies stations that only play 200-300 songs to death but I also know the "play them all from the era" is folly.

There simply are not 4500, 2000 or even 1000 Oldies that deserve regular airplay, whether you're a 1958-1971 traditional oldies station or one that's a '60s/'70s mix.
Never have been, never will be.

 

[AZJoe]

Re: here we go again

NEWSFLASH, gentlemen: radio listeners do not base their musical tastes in 2006 on what was on record charts 40 years ago.

A lot of songs gained chart position through the years via (yes) payola, massive record company pushl, Program Directors (and earlier in the rock & roll era) disc jockeys who liked the songs, etc. Whether it's Billboard, Cashbox, R&R or local radio station surveys, radio audiences don't decide what they like because a song hit #4 instead of #13 on some chart 3 or 4 decades ago.

There are a lot of songs that never made the Top 20 (Land Of A Thousand Dances by Wilson Pickett and But It's Alright by J.J. Jackson are two that come to mind) that are huge today. Conversely, is anybody here really thinking that the 1968 song that was #1 for about 2 months, Honey by Bobby Goldsboro, deserves regular play on Oldies in 2006?

Tell you what- we'll take your Oldies station designed by chart position vs. my Oldies station with a healthy playlist count of around 700, with the use of some Auditorium Testing so the listeners decide what's a power, secondary and so on, and I will beat you soundly every book. I totally do not believe in Oldies stations that only play 200-300 songs to death but I also know the "play them all from the era" is folly.

There simply are not 4500, 2000 or even 1000 Oldies that deserve regular airplay, whether you're a 1958-1971 traditional oldies station or one that's a '60s/'70s mix.
Never have been, never will be.

I agree with you Oldies Cat, mainstream/average America oldies listeners wont tolerate regular airplay from that many tunes, yet they might tolerate an occasional (not regular) oh wow, lost 45, lesser hit thrown in now and then. Your amount of 700 sure beats 300 anyday and it is all about what a station can get maximium listenership out of- not pleasing some oldies fringe fans that want every song played that was recorded. Correction in your post , Land of 1000 Dances by the "Wicked" Wilson Pickett was #6 on the charts in 1966, far bigger than not making the top 20, you might have Cannibal & the Headhunters 1965 version in your mind, as it only hit #30. But your point of past chart performances is true, it makes little difference today if a song hit #1 or #25, if we like it now and it plays well- or it doesnt. Past tastes and validty of chart positions mean very little in 2006. Thats why the aging oldies market who can't play for the ad people have drifted off to other venues. Its not necessarily a bad thing, just the evolution of the case at hand I guess. Radio has more problems than oldies fans being unhappy.....thats just one chapter in the big story.

 

[OldiesCat]

your last comment is true

Radio's challenges are a lot bigger than Oldies doesn't play "The Shoop Shoop Song" anymore.

And I totally agree with you on the occasional "oh, wow!" song. I would also add the caveat that you also have to be careful with those. For instance, Oldies being where it is today, I'd much prefer pleasing my listeners with the lost Stones, Beatles hit than pulling out some sappy garbage like "I Think I Love You" by the Partridge Family or some silly Osmonds or J-5 song.

This is where our Oldies freaks peanut gallery will counter with, "but, but, but, those were Top 5 hits in 19-whatever!". Nobody cares, I'm afraid. If you're an Oldies station playing a '60s/'70s mix, you have to be credible with that mid-40s listener and "Sugar Sugar" or "One Bad Apple" will cause buttons to be hit faster than anything. You're better off with, for example, "Questions 67 & 68" by Chicago or "Tightrope" by Leon Russell- maybe "Devil Woman" from Cliff Richard, but sure as heck not with anything like "Bad Girls" by Donna Summer.

Like I said, you can do oldies with around 700 regular rotation titles plus another 200-300 additional titles for special weekends, features and "oh, wow!" slots.

 

[tjthedj]

I agree with most of the comments, but (I didn't realize when I wrote that, below) the 1500 songs I quoted included 250 Christmas songs and those "O Wow!" songs too. 4500 songs goes WAY too deep.

Oldiescat, we agree. The regular rotation IS about 700 songs, with lots of attention to (maybe only 1 per hour late in the hour) other stuff with a much lower rotation, giving the illusion that you have EVERYTHING. THAT is what Chick Watkins did (using Selector) on the old "AM ONLY" format with about the same number of songs.

Auditorium testing is quite expensive, but I would do it initially. Then, after that, anually (probably labor day weekend) I'd do a "music battle" playing 2 songs, then people vote, then the winner of that battle faces another song, and so on. Even if you get only a few calls (even in a small market my experience was that LOTS of people call) you give the ILLUSION of "playing peoples favorites and that we have an amaziingly LARGE library. Idea is from Bob Moomey at WIND, Chicago in the 70's.

 

[radiofriend1]

I agree with most of the comments, but (I didn't realize when I wrote that, below) the 1500 songs I quoted included 250 Christmas songs and those "O Wow!" songs too. 4500 songs goes WAY too deep.

Oldiescat, we agree. The regular rotation IS about 700 songs, with lots of attention to (maybe only 1 per hour late in the hour) other stuff with a much lower rotation, giving the illusion that you have EVERYTHING. THAT is what Chick Watkins did (using Selector) on the old "AM ONLY" format with about the same number of songs.

Auditorium testing is quite expensive, but I would do it initially. Then, after that, anually (probably labor day weekend) I'd do a "music battle" playing 2 songs, then people vote, then the winner of that battle faces another song, and so on. Even if you get only a few calls (even in a small market my experience was that LOTS of people call) you give the ILLUSION of "playing peoples favorites and that we have an amaziingly LARGE library. Idea is from Bob Moomey at WIND, Chicago in the 70's.

letting callers vote to determine anything on your playlist is WRONG. less than 5% of the audience ever participates. R U gonna base the most important thing U do on the phone junkies & contest pigs?