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WARM Back On???

Balt jack got me thinking here.......I've spent a lot of time in Nevada over the past 3 years working on new station projects. In Las Vegas the ground conductivity is a "15" in most places. Even very weak AM stations have reasonably good signals there...of course they don't have as much clutter from regional stations. Drive a few hundred miles up to Reno and the conductivity steadily gets worse, an "8" in some spots, a "4" or worse in others. Now this is not as bad as NEPA but certainly not as good as other western places. Reno is actually close enough to Sacramento and San Francisco to pick up interference from stations there, especially the 50 kw stations. Interestingly, the number one station in Reno is KKOH (AM). Its been number one for many years, its the pride of radio in the market, no one can touch it. It is 50 kw during the day giving it a very good signal. It is a well run news/talk station, very similar to WILK. So now the kicker, KKOH is owned by none other than Citadel!!!

KF
 
See Jeff...you learn something new every day!! Back when this now endless thread started..(Personally I think it should now be renamed to the Jeff, Kevin & Baltimore Jack Personal Thread) LOL...I pointed out that it is indeed Citadel policy not to put money into AM stations..that do not produce revenue. But to widen the thought..Citadel does not put money into anything..AM-FM-XM-PM or BM unless it produces money. While Kevin is busy travelling the globe hunting for high ground conductivity, you don't have to go farther than Binghamton, where Citadel owns heritage WNBF, which is pretty much always in the top 3 stations in the market, and still pulls down the dollars, to see that Citadel puts in some money there. In fact a month or so ago when that awful shooting happened in Binghamton, it wasn't the local TV people who were all over the networks, Fox & CNN..it was the only real radio news director left in Binghamton, WNBF-AMs Bob Joseph who was getting all the calls from the outside world. Again, the real problem with Citadel and all the other big people was that when they began the race to see who gets to be the biggest, they gorged themselves on stations that they didn't need and in the end couldn't use, or allocate adequate resources for. So you wound up with clusters that consisted of "haves & have-nots". The group owners should have been wise enough to fire-sale the "have-nots" and then spent their time developing stations that they could profitably operate. The have nots would have been bought up by smaller, possibly local owners who would have NEEDED whatever property they bought to be profitable..hence they would have gotten the attention they needed. And this discussion would never have been started at all.

I really do agree with a move to clean out the AM band. Too many odd-ball directionals squeezed into weird patterns that in the end serve no purpose. Maybe one of the things that the gummint could do would be to sort of run a "tax-credit for licenses" program. Now I know that the purists on this board will howl like they've been shot with this one..but here's the idea. Say you have a cluster and you have 3-AMs and 2 are up on 1500 with 1Kw Day and require a 3 tower system at night, running at 250w which you can't hear 2 blocks from the tower...they surrender the license..the feds give you a tax credit for return of the license, and then another tax credit for a slightly inflated value of the tower iron, land & equipement. It helps clean up the band, and you don't have some sad, hopeless AM chugging away on a computer in some closet next to the Prod room that only 3 old ladies listen to. And they never listen at the same time. While I'm sure the Feds would find a wonderful way to gum up the plan..(Maybe that's why Reagan pronounced it gumm-int)..that could be a workable solution. I don't think AM needs to go away..it still has use..especially the big 50K stations in times of emergency..but it could sure use a VERY serious house cleaning.
OK Jeff & Kevin...you're up!
 
Kevin's comment goes to the very root of what some of us have said all along: WARM, as a business proposition, makes no sense.

The strikes against WARM include a lack of viable format holes, dominant competition from big FMs...AND...that WARM is burdened with a complex, out of spec directional array that would take hundreds of thousands of dollars to properly repair.

AM as a band has a litany of problems. WARM as a station has more.

While some insist that the big, bad radio groups are to blame for WARM's decline and recent flatline, Kevin's post proves that where AM is viable, the seed money will be there.

So, lacking some starry-eyed dreamer with deep pockets that he's willing to empty, WARM will continue to limp along on life support until somebody at Citadel gains the mercy to pull the plug for good.

Johnny Carson comes to mind. He had his stellar run, but knew when to quit. The memories of a great television pioneer were not sullied by too many bows, or attempts to squeeze out a few more shows.

Circumstances are showing that WARM's great heritage should fade to black, so as not to dilute memories that remain both good and vivid. Alas, the recent 'rebirth' of WARM is just the most recent step that will make the good times fade even further.
 
Speaking of complicated tower systems...WDGY AM-1130 in Minneapolis comes to mind. Granted they are a 50Kw signal, but they have a 9 tower directional array! The towers are out in Bloomington near the old (1970's) Viking stadium. Now that's a lot of land, iron & copper to manage!! And, since their Top-40 days way back in the early 70's they too, have been an also-ran.
 
BaltimoreJack said:
Speaking of complicated tower systems...WDGY AM-1130 in Minneapolis comes to mind. Granted they are a 50Kw signal, but they have a 9 tower directional array! The towers are out in Bloomington near the old (1970's) Viking stadium. Now that's a lot of land, iron & copper to manage!! And, since their Top-40 days way back in the early 70's they too, have been an also-ran.
Click to expand...

There's a 9-tower DA a little closer than that.... in Johnstown, PA.
 
I'm not a big tower guy like KF or Scott Fybush, who know every tower between here and Russia. In fact I had never seen a tower set up like WDGY's which is why I mentioned it. WARM has 5 towers, which is a lot of work to keep in alignment. Let alone 9 towers. Who has the 9 towers in Johnstown?
 
BaltimoreJack said:
I'm not a big tower guy like KF or Scott Fybush, who know every tower between here and Russia. In fact I had never seen a tower set up like WDGY's which is why I mentioned it. WARM has 5 towers, which is a lot of work to keep in alignment. Let alone 9 towers. Who has the 9 towers in Johnstown?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment. (That was a compliment, right? ;) )

The 9-tower array in Johnstown is on 850, the erstwhile WJAC, later WNTJ and now WKGE.
 
Scott Fybush said:
BaltimoreJack said:
I'm not a big tower guy like KF or Scott Fybush, who know every tower between here and Russia. In fact I had never seen a tower set up like WDGY's which is why I mentioned it. WARM has 5 towers, which is a lot of work to keep in alignment. Let alone 9 towers. Who has the 9 towers in Johnstown?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment. (That was a compliment, right? ;) )

The 9-tower array in Johnstown is on 850, the erstwhile WJAC, later WNTJ and now WKGE.
Click to expand...
Yeah Scott...it WAS a compliment!!
XO
Baltimore Jack
 
Scott Fybush said:
The 9-tower array in Johnstown is on 850, the erstwhile WJAC, later WNTJ and now WKGE.
Click to expand...

Yup -- the old WJAC-AM is correct. The calls were WNTJ when Forever owned it... we used to say that NTJ was an acronym for "Nine Tower Junk". ;D

It's an ND1, so the parameters are the same day and night, which greatly simplifies the plant.
 
Thought there was at least one "W" station with a 12 tower system. I remember that their calls at one point meant "We've Tried Everything Else" or something similar. (Following a parade of format changes.) Thought the 12 towers went down to 9 or 10 after an engineering tweak.

Mr. Fybush would know...
 
Please forgive the intrusion... I was just passing by again and had a thought/question about all the WARMers feeling all bummed out that the signal is about to go poof!

I too was raised on WARMland always keeping a small radio safely tucked under the pillow but reality is what reality is. So here is the idea/question, mayhaps better answered by Kevin if he happens to be passing by...

Let's say we already have an HD2 stream running on an established FM signal. Why not slap on an HD3 stream but you would only need reduced bandwidth since it would be used to feed AM programming into. Now here is the idea/question - can you now pull the HD3 programming from the FM signal and feed it into an analog Translator? If that be the case, maybe Citadel would be better off by selling the WARM site, dispose of the scrap iron for cash and start installing small cheap translators in geographically conducive areas, read: older demographics who pine for the return of ‘The Good Old Days’ – well maybe not ‘older’, let’s say ‘Classic’.

I know there is flirtation with allowing AM programming on FM Translators but can ‘HD’ be Translated to an analog signal? If that be the case that opens up a whole new area to pursue… (i.e. $$$ to be made…)

Then if you’re really die-hard, you can buy a cheap Carrier Current AM system to feed the FM Translator into and enjoy WARM in all its reduced bandwidth audio glory just like back in 1965…

Anyway, just a thought/question…

:) RD
 
CJRN Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada. Ten towers at night with 3.5kW on 710, protecting WOR, WLW, WGN and seemingly any station 40kHz under and above. Now that's a lot of iron and copper for a station that programs tourist and traffic information. Don't ask. It's a Canadian thing. Hmmm, could be a format for WARM.
 
WARM could broadcast tourist information for the coal mine tours. ;D

Can't find info on that 12 tower system I mentioned above. Dammit, it remember that. Protecting a bunch of other stations as well as Joe's CB in an old pickup truck that would sometimes drive to the corner store for groceries...or something.

Hmmm...
 
JimPastrick said:
CJRN Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada. Ten towers at night with 3.5kW on 710, protecting WOR, WLW, WGN and seemingly any station 40kHz under and above. Now that's a lot of iron and copper for a station that programs tourist and traffic information. Don't ask. It's a Canadian thing. Hmmm, could be a format for WARM.
Click to expand...

CJRN used to be a commercial radio station until some time around the turn of the century. It was like a hot AC/CHR hybrid at one time. It's obvious they needed to protect other stations at the same dial position, but they reach into Toronto VERY well, day and night. I used to tune into them for music when I lived in Toronto in the 90's.
 
BarryATL said:
Is the station really making enough cash to support all of that?
Click to expand...

I can't attest to their profits or cash flow, but AM antenna systems aren't the money pit that a lot of folks here seem to insinuate that they are. Properly constructed arrays are really quite simple to maintain. As long as the steel is kept painted, the guys properly tensioned, and the land regularly mowed or defoliated, they will last for years and years.

The problems happen, as in the case of 590, when they are neglected year after year. Foliage is allowed to penetrate ground systems, guy wires loosen, contactor contacts pit and burn, sample lines leak, and before you know it, the array is out of tolerance and you have a huge expense on your hands.

Do they cost more to maintain than FM sticks -- usually, yes. But the class D AM NON-D sticks that dot the landscape are usually very inexpensive to maintain, provided it's done on a regular basis.

That's just how I see it -- and I have quite a few years in the business to use as a benchmark.
 
mimo said:
JimPastrick said:
CJRN Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada. Ten towers at night with 3.5kW on 710, protecting WOR, WLW, WGN and seemingly any station 40kHz under and above. Now that's a lot of iron and copper for a station that programs tourist and traffic information. Don't ask. It's a Canadian thing. Hmmm, could be a format for WARM.
Click to expand...

CJRN used to be a commercial radio station until some time around the turn of the century. It was like a hot AC/CHR hybrid at one time. It's obvious they needed to protect other stations at the same dial position, but they reach into Toronto VERY well, day and night. I used to tune into them for music when I lived in Toronto in the 90's.
Click to expand...
That's right mimo, and CJRN Inc. traded its 710 AM frequency for an FM. I can recall listening to Sabres' PBP man Rick Jeanerret back in the day, doing mornings on CJRN after having called a Buffalo Sabres hockey game on WGR the night before. If you really wanna go back, back, back, back, back... I remember CJRN when it was 5kW on 1600.

We now return this thread to the denizens of NEPA and apologize for momentarily taking it across the border without a visa.
_________________________________________________

BTW, here's the kind of stuff you'd hear on CJRN-AM 710 these days: "If you're visiting Canada this summer, you'll need a US passport or your birth certificate or your voter registration card AND a valid driver's license to return to the United States. Remember, Canada is now 25% off! The US dollar is worth a dollar 25 Canadian. Welcome to Ontario, Yours to Discover!"
 
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