Wasted 50 kw AM signals

[davideduardo]

[
I was referring to the top 7 liberal stations for 12+ , not 25-54. And, I was reffering to KPTK 25-54 6A-7P M-F, not weekends or overnights.

You should, if you are posting about ratings, already know that overnights is not included in the "total week" ratings and never has been. The Portland rank on 25-54 which you brought up in your post is about the same 6 A - 7P as it is 6 A-Mid. It is not in the top 20 in seattle.

as with KLSD (as you also mentioned), KPTK has signal problems, until their daytime CP is going, they will continue to have inadequate coverage. the night pattern can't be changed due to 1090 in Little rock and XX Sports 1090

The signal covers 90% of the market daytime. Since you changed the rules to 6 A to 7 P, accept the fact that in this time frame, the station is not in the top 20 in 25-54, the only demo that matters for sales on an AM.

 

[davideduardo]

and a daytimer in the deep south does not sign on as late as or sign off as early as a northern daytimer.

I'm not sure I get that. Isn't sunrise power-up, and sundown, power down/sign off the same everywhere? (except 1530/Cincinatti) Sunrise in a particular time zone is the same in the north and the deep south. Yes? No?

On the equator, sunrise and sunset are at the same time every day of the year, and day and night are equal. At the poles, day can range from 0 minutes to the entire 24 hours. Any point between has different lengths of day and night depending on how far from the equator the location is.

Sign on and off times are dictated by local sunrise and sunset, which varies by latitude and longitude. All places at the same latitude will have the same length days, but going north or south will decrease or increase the length of days depending on the tilt of the earth from the sun.

 

[ponderosaAZ]

[
I was referring to the top 7 liberal stations for 12+ , not 25-54. And, I was reffering to KPTK 25-54 6A-7P M-F, not weekends or overnights.

You should, if you are posting about ratings, already know that overnights is not included in the "total week" ratings and never has been. The Portland rank on 25-54 which you brought up in your post is about the same 6 A - 7P as it is 6 A-Mid. It is not in the top 20 in seattle.

as with KLSD (as you also mentioned), KPTK has signal problems, until their daytime CP is going, they will continue to have inadequate coverage. the night pattern can't be changed due to 1090 in Little rock and XX Sports 1090

The signal covers 90% of the market daytime. Since you changed the rules to 6 A to 7 P, accept the fact that in this time frame, the station is not in the top 20 in 25-54, the only demo that matters for sales on an AM.

I see you going after posters on these forums in an arrogant, superior sort of way. Come on, we're all in this business. My comment was simply that the top 12+ performers for liberal talk were in San Francisco/KGO (6 shares), Portland (4), Albuquerque (3), Seattle (2), Denver (1.5), etc.
Please stop the nitpicking against yr fellow posters. KPTK 1090 and 710 KIRO (Seattle) have been neck and neck middays recently, you better check this out and call the PD before posting otherwise. Your 13,000 posts give you no more credibility in the industry than my 60 posts!

KPTK 1090 does not cover 90 percent of the market daytime at 7.5mV/m, hence their CP. Why would they even bother to apply for a CP if they covered 90 percent of the market? IF they did, their ratings would be higher!

 

[davideduardo]

I see you going after posters on these forums in an arrogant, superior sort of way.

No, I am simply correcting the flood of inaccurate or incomplete information you have posted. What is at issue is the lack of fact or, simply, hyperbole, in your posts on ratings and the lack of understanding of the budget process in radio and business in general.

Come on, we're all in this business.

I had never thought that you were in the business; your comments and observations are more akin to those posted by very interested outsiders as opposed to those of a person actually and currently employed in radio.

My comment was simply that the top 12+ performers for liberal talk were in San Francisco/KGO (6 shares),

KGO is, by San Francisco standards, pretty centrist. It certainly would not be called liberal by most Bay Area residents. It's commanality with Air America, Rhodes, Schultz, etc., is most limited. I doubt Jack and Micky would enjoy being compared with Air America, either.

Please stop the nitpicking against yr fellow posters.

When you say KPTK is doing quite well in 25-54, and I look at the data that says they are below #2 in that demo, I have to question your remarks. Then, when you shoot back and say you are limiting dayparts and "overnights" when overnights is not included in any full-week table, I have to question your knowledge of radio and of ratings.

KPTK 1090 and 710 KIRO (Seattle) have been neck and neck middays recently,

What do you mean by "middays?" What demo? What survey? Winter? Fall? Summer?

you better check this out and call the PD before posting otherwise.

Why would I want to call the PD? The facts are in the book, not in a phone call.

KPTK 1090 does not cover 90 percent of the market daytime at 7.5mV/m, hence their CP. Why would they even bother to apply for a CP if they covered 90 percent of the market? IF they did, their ratings would be higher!

Many stations apply for CPs for what seem to be minor improvements. Sometimes they are to block a co or adjacent channel station from making a change, or they fill in an area that has useful population. I've filled for CPs that increased field strength by only 1 mv/m over a 30° arc just because it maximises the signal to the fullest extent.

The KTPK CP increases by a bit to the SSE at the expense of the west. The KIRO 5 mv/m is essentially identical to the KTPK 2 mv/m contour... and that is the product of ground conductivity on 710 vs. 1090.

I am not sure why you mention 7.5 mv/m, which is not a signal strength I have ever seen cited for comparisons. In metros, almost all in home and at work diary mentions are inside the 10 mv/m today, and for that, KTPK has and will have fairly similar population coverages as they are and as the CP will operate.

As to the supposition that KTPK would do better with a better signal, I disagree since most of the population of the metro (6 counties) is at its densest in and around Seattle itself. Adding a stronger coverage of the far extremes of King, Pierce and Thurston counties adds very little population. Similarly, nearly all the population of Snohomish county is within the first miles from the Sound, not in the far east side of the county. Improving coverage there just adds some bear and friends; critters don't get diaries.

 

[ponderosaAZ]

Re: KPTK AM 1090 SEATTLE

"No, I am simply correcting the flood of inaccurate or incomplete information you have posted."

Oh....really? HA HA HA Go to the 12+ radio and records sites and you will find that everything I posed is truthful and acccurate - with the liberal stations in SanFran,Denver,Portland,Albuquerque,Seattle getting the highest 12+ ratings. KGO is generally considered a left leaning station, you are an exception to most of yr colleagues in stating otherwise.

"I had never thought that you were in the business; your comments and observations are more akin to those posted by very interested outsiders as opposed to those of a person actually and currently employed in radio."


I am not an outsider and it is truly is distasteful for you or anyone else to make judgements about fellow posters.

"What do you mean by "middays?" What demo? What survey? Winter? Fall? Summer?"

Monson/Ross on KIRO vs. Hartmann/Schultz on 1090 (9A-3P M-F).

"Why would I want to call the PD? The facts are in the book, not in a phone call."

Well some of us don't have the arbitrons so we call PD's.

As to the supposition that KTPK would do better with a better signal, I disagree since most of the population of the metro (6 counties) is at its densest in and around Seattle itself. Adding a stronger coverage of the far extremes of King, Pierce and Thurston counties adds very little population. Similarly, nearly all the population of Snohomish county is within the first miles from the Sound, not in the far east side of the county. Improving coverage there just adds some bear and friends; critters don't get diaries.


No, it's not rural anymore! That's an insult to KPTK engineers and CBS.
Please check your road atlas. The new 1090 daytime pattern covers rapidly growing suburbs ....... Federal Way (82K), Kent (85K), Auburn (46K), Puyallup (36K), Sumner (10K), Maple Valley , Enumclaw (11K), Black Diamond, Bonney Lake (14K), Issaquah (15K), N. Bend (5K), Orting (5K) Sammammish (34K), "South Hill" (still unincorporated, tens of thousands), among many other incorporated and unincorporated places. There's a new housing development in Bonney Lake, I think it's falling water: http://www.evergreenstatebuilders.com/esbFW/
going in right now that will support it's either 250,000 homes or 250,000 people!

With the new pattern, 1090 at 50kW will have the best *daytime* pattern in the market, other than KIRO,KTTH,KOMO,KVI. Prove me wrong. You can't, I do my homework.
Source: 2006 Rand McNally road atlas with population based on the "latest available census, or are census bureau or rand mcnally estimates"

 

[qtpieislit]

and a daytimer in the deep south does not sign on as late as or sign off as early as a northern daytimer.

I'm not sure I get that. Isn't sunrise power-up, and sundown, power down/sign off the same everywhere? (except 1530/Cincinatti) Sunrise in a particular time zone is the same in the north and the deep south. Yes? No?

On the equator, sunrise and sunset are at the same time every day of the year, and day and night are equal. At the poles, day can range from 0 minutes to the entire 24 hours. Any point between has different lengths of day and night depending on how far from the equator the location is.

Sign on and off times are dictated by local sunrise and sunset, which varies by latitude and longitude. All places at the same latitude will have the same length days, but going north or south will decrease or increase the length of days depending on the tilt of the earth from the sun.

Ahh Yes. It seems obvious to me now. So, is the broadcast day actually longer in lets say, Bangor Maine than it is in Miami Fla in the summer? And do they lower the power at night on AM in South America, below Mexico?

 

[w9wi]

Ahh Yes. It seems obvious to me now. So, is the broadcast day actually longer in lets say, Bangor Maine than it is in Miami Fla in the summer? And do they lower the power at night on AM in South America, below Mexico?

Yes. Looking up WABI (Bangor) and WSUA (Miami) in the CDBS Database, you find that in January WABI goes on day facilities at 7:15 EST and off at 4:15 for 9 hours of day operation. Miami is west of Bangor so WSUA also goes on day facilities at 7:15 but they can stay on them until 5:45, for 10-1/2 hours of day operation.

On the other hand, in June WABI is on day facilities from 4:45 to 8:15 EDT, for 15-1/2 hours of day operation. WSUA is on day facilities from 6:30 until 8:15 for 13-3/4 hours.

Just for the heck of it, I ran KHLO (Hilo, Hawaii) and KJNO (Juneau, Alaska).

KHLO is on day facilities* in January for 11 hours, from 7am until 6pm. In June they're on day facilities for 13-1/4 hours, from 6:45 until 8:00.

KJNO is on day facilities in January for 7-1/4 hours, from 8:30 until 3:45. In June they're on day facilities for 18-1/4 hours, from 3:45 until 10:00.

I wanted to run it for Fairbanks but the calculator won't accept latitudes north of 60N.

* actually, KHLO's day and night facilities are identical.

 

[davideduardo]

Ahh Yes. It seems obvious to me now. So, is the broadcast day actually longer in lets say, Bangor Maine than it is in Miami Fla in the summer? And do they lower the power at night on AM in South America, below Mexico?

Yes, the summer "day" is longer in northern latitudes than closer to the equator. At the equator, the day is the same length 365 days a year.

In Central America (Guatemala to Panama) and South America and the Caribbean (except for Puerto Rico, USA), no stations cut power at night except a handful in very deep South America where a regional treaty exists (Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina.

Except for Mexico and Puerto Rico, Latin America has no daytimers, either. And Mexican daytimers operate a fixed 6 AM to 7 PM all year around, irrespective of the true sunrise and sunset times... one would say that Mexico agreed to daytimers to placate the US when NARBA was written in 1940 and then turned around and did not follow the definition of "daytime" in any manner.

Similarly, there are very few directionals in all that region, and those are, for the most part, intentional by the licensee to increase strength over areas that need it, and to reduce waste of power over less desirable areas.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: KPTK AM 1090 SEATTLE

Oh....really? HA HA HA Go to the 12+ radio and records sites and you will find that everything I posed is truthful and acccurate - with the liberal stations in SanFran,Denver,Portland,Albuquerque,Seattle getting the highest 12+ ratings.

You should know that the reason Arbitron gives away the 12+ numbers is that they are without value for sales or programming. Trying to make any analytical point on the business of radio, which depends almost entirely on 18 to 54 listening, using 12+ is meaningless and futile.

KGO is generally considered a left leaning station, you are an exception to most of yr colleagues in stating otherwise.

No, KGO is not considered a "left leaning" station. It is considered very centrist in its home market, because the market itself is quite liberal. KGO does not cover the rest of the US, so one has to look at it in the context of its own market, not some vague national standard you are attempting to create.

I am not an outsider and it is truly is distasteful for you or anyone else to make judgements about fellow posters.

Huh? This is a discussion group. One makes judgement calls nearly every time they post. Based on your use of terminology, your general conclusions, and your descriptions of broadcast operations (like the still amusing "allocations" by CCU to liberal talk operations), I felt that you were an outsider looking in. If you are in the industry, it's unfortunate that you do not pick up on the terms and practices as not doing so will affect your career.

"What do you mean by "middays?" What demo? What survey? Winter? Fall? Summer?"

Monson/Ross on KIRO vs. Hartmann/Schultz on 1090 (9A-3P M-F).

Speaking of terms: "middays" is 10 to 3. Period. And 9 to 3 is a custom daypart, part of AMD and part of MD. I asked what demo and what book and you did not answer...

No, it's not rural anymore! That's an insult to KPTK engineers and CBS.
Please check your road atlas.

Road atlas? ROAD ATLAS? Jeesh.

I used a coverage mapping program that shows populations under each selected contour. The 1090 signal only increases slightly to the SSE along about a 40 to 50 degree arc. It loses to the west, and is within a mile or so of being identical to the north and to the east. The gains to the SSE are not huge, either. But, in today's world, any increas is significant.

The real issue with 1090 is that it is 1090, more than half way up the band and less efficient than the stations on lkower frequencies, particularly 710 which enjoys much better propagation... but that is mostly felt on the outskirts of the metro or in areas that are not even in the metro.

With the new pattern, 1090 at 50kW will have the best *daytime* pattern in the market, other than KIRO,KTTH,KOMO,KVI. Prove me wrong. You can't, I do my homework.
Source: 2006 Rand McNally road atlas with population based on the "latest available census, or are census bureau or rand mcnally estimates"

I'm sorry, my engineering application just can not compete with a.... giggle surpressed.... road atlas.

In the industry, we tend to use 12+ numbers as a reference, and we use either updated to 2007 Claritas or ACS data, not the decennial Census of 8 years ago.

And... KIRO has no day pattern, it is Non-Directional. So is KVI. And KOMO.

 

[ponderosaAZ]

Re: KPTK AM 1090 SEATTLE

"You should know that the reason Arbitron gives away the 12+ numbers is that they are without value for sales or programming. Trying to make any analytical point on the business of radio, which depends almost entirely on 18 to 54 listening, using 12+ is meaningless and futile."

When Phil Boyce at the recent conference explained that Boomers are aging so looking at up to 64 yrs old is worthwhile. Take this issue up with Boyce, not me.

"No, KGO is not considered a "left leaning" station. It is considered very centrist in its home market, because the market itself is quite liberal. KGO does not cover the rest of the US, so one has to look at it in the context of its own market, not some vague national standard you are attempting to create."

I create no vague national standards. most of KGO programming is liberal - Edell, Karel, Talliaferro, Rothmann, etc. that which is not liberal is centerist - Gross, Owens, Brinker

"Huh? This is a discussion group. One makes judgement calls nearly every time they post. Based on your use of terminology, your general conclusions, and your descriptions of broadcast operations (like the still amusing "allocations" by CCU to liberal talk operations), I felt that you were an outsider looking in. If you are in the industry, it's unfortunate that you do not pick up on the terms and practices as not doing so will affect your career."

on message boards I don't talk in industry terms, reason being: many here are outside the industry or are in sales and don't understand engineering. The goal is to stimulate discussion among all who participate. Wouldn't you agree?

"Speaking of terms: "middays" is 10 to 3. Period. And 9 to 3 is a custom daypart, part of AMD and part of MD. I asked what demo and what book and you did not answer..."

so I didn't answer because that was from a call with a PD awhile back and I don't have the notes - it was middays, 9-3. hartmann and ross start at 9am in seattle, of course middays are 10-3 but I'm comparing hartmann to ross and ed against monson

"I used a coverage mapping program that shows populations under each selected contour. The 1090 signal only increases slightly to the SSE along about a 40 to 50 degree arc. It loses to the west, and is within a mile or so of being identical to the north and to the east. The gains to the SSE are not huge, either. But, in today's world, any increas is significant."

and that's what you used, more power to you and thanks for posting it. I don't post high tech stuff like this because most won't understand it or respond to such a post. The goal of a message board is to get others to respond to your posts, just like the goal of a program director is to get others to listen to yr station.


"I'm sorry, my engineering application just can not compete with a.... giggle surpressed.... road atlas. "

no it can't on technical grounds alone, but a road atlas has value in showing the actual population figures, and that's easier for advertisers to understand. You have to remember we are selling radio to people who haven't a clue about engineering or demos. I just stated the reasons why I use common terminology on radio message boards and I am *NOT* going to change based on your repeated criticisms.

 

[johnnyu]

In the immortal words of that great American, Rodney King. Can't we all just get along?

 

[davideduardo]

Re: KPTK AM 1090 SEATTLE

"You should know that the reason Arbitron gives away the 12+ numbers is that they are without value for sales or programming. Trying to make any analytical point on the business of radio, which depends almost entirely on 18 to 54 listening, using 12+ is meaningless and futile."

When Phil Boyce at the recent conference explained that Boomers are aging so looking at up to 64 yrs old is worthwhile. Take this issue up with Boyce, not me.

Whether talk's demos are ageing or not, 12+ numbers are useless for sales. Perhaps WABC looks better in 45-64 than in 25-54, but that is not the issue. 65+ and 12-17 are not salable demos and they are a big part of 12+.

As to going to 64, as Boyce suggests, may be a programming alternative that masks the shrinking 15-54 of AM talkers, but it does not change the fact that agencies essentially do not buy 55+ in any form. And the ageing of the format is mostly due to the fact that there are now two generations of Americans who have grown up with little or no use of AM; for many AM is simply the geezer band... and it sounds ugly.

This is why there is a trend, on the increase, to move AM traditional news talkers to AM or to do AM / Fm simulcasts. The results have been so good in improving dramatically the 25-54 on such stations that we can expect the trend to continue.

You see, it is all about 18-54 or 18-34 or 25-54, not 12+.

I create no vague national standards. most of KGO programming is liberal - Edell, Karel, Talliaferro, Rothmann, etc. that which is not liberal is centerist - Gross, Owens, Brinker

Again, for the Bay Area, none of these talents is considered extremest... they are centrist hosts in a liberal market area. Were the same lineup to be presented in St Louis, they would be considered flaming liberals. But, you see, KGO is in the San Francisco MSA, not the St. Louis one, and it has to be judged against the market, not some national standard.

on message boards I don't talk in industry terms, reason being: many here are outside the industry or are in sales and don't understand engineering. The goal is to stimulate discussion among all who participate. Wouldn't you agree?

I'd agree about making terms clear, but not about using the wrong terms. Things like talking about "allocations" when most people understand the word "budget" or callin KVI and KIRO, among others, stations with daytime directional patterns when they are ot directional is what I was referring to.

"Speaking of terms: "middays" is 10 to 3. Period. And 9 to 3 is a custom daypart, part of AMD and part of MD. I asked what demo and what book and you did not answer..."

so I didn't answer because that was from a call with a PD awhile back and I don't have the notes - it was middays, 9-3. hartmann and ross start at 9am in seattle, of course middays are 10-3 but I'm comparing hartmann to ross and ed against monson[/quote]

Middays is 10-3, 9 to 3 is a custom daypart in ratings software. Again, you did not specifiy when or who (book or demos).

no it can't on technical grounds alone, but a road atlas has value in showing the actual population figures, and that's easier for advertisers to understand.

Arbitron uses 12+, and is as current as each Fall's population updates from Claritas. An atlas is likely to be many, many years out of date, and not 12+.

You have to remember we are selling radio to people who haven't a clue about engineering or demos. I just stated the reasons why I use common terminology on radio message boards and I am *NOT* going to change based on your repeated criticisms.

In larger markets we sell mostly with demos and even map a client's location, if retail, against our audience distribution to develop tie-ins with remotes, promotions, etc.

 

[Hmmm101]

Wow. This thread was really interesting on the first couple of pages.

Then, all of a sudden, BOOM! We took a turn into Tangentville.

Getting back on track...

Nominees for waste of 50KW AM -- WLOR (the former WAAY), Huntsville and WSAI, Cincinnati.

Thank you.

 

[radiorob2.0]

Wow. This thread was really interesting on the first couple of pages.

Then, all of a sudden, BOOM! We took a turn into Tangentville.

Getting back on track...

Nominees for waste of 50KW AM -- WLOR (the former WAAY), Huntsville and WSAI, Cincinnati.

Thank you.

A correction, 1530 is back to WCKY.