Wasted signals

[1L6E6VHF]

I want to say CKLW, but I don't particularly feel like starting an argument on big Canadian signals near the border.

I kinda agree with you on that, as the same owner is using a 50kW to cater only to Windsor whilst trying to serve the whole Detroit market on both sides of the river with their 500-watt sister.

Especially now that they have so many other options. Since CBEF abandoned 540, CKWW (580) could likely make a significant upgrade using their existing array on 540, where they would not have to protect WTCM and WKBN (not to suggest that they're doing that now on 580 anyway)

An even juicier upgrade would be to get CFCO to switch to 540 so CKWW could go to 630 (escaping the wall of IBOC from WRDT 560)

At the very least, they should undo their mistake of 25 years ago, bring back "The Big 8" and put the Windsor talk on 580 (630 or 540).

 

[DeadElvis]

I get the impression that "wasted signal" for some on this string really means a station with a big signal, running a format that doesn't appeal to the writer. That's a matter of personal aesthetics.

I am defining it differently. "Wasted" truly means meaningless. One perfect example: 680 here in Memphis. This is a 10kw day/5 kW night station with a huge, expensive, well-maintained DA. In its day, this was perhaps the best AM signal in Memphis (some might argue 600 was -- but it's arguable). Today, it just simulcasts sports from a class-A FM. I don't think there is ANY stand-alone programming on 680. Absolutely pointless.

Surely, something could be found for this once-proud signal. And, I don't care if it appeals to me or not; I just don't want to see it wasted.

DE

 

[ftballfan]

I get the impression that "wasted signal" for some on this string really means a station with a big signal, running a format that doesn't appeal to the writer. That's a matter of personal aesthetics.

I am defining it differently. "Wasted" truly means meaningless. One perfect example: 680 here in Memphis. This is a 10kw day/5 kW night station with a huge, expensive, well-maintained DA. In its day, this was perhaps the best AM signal in Memphis (some might argue 600 was -- but it's arguable). Today, it just simulcasts sports from a class-A FM. I don't think there is ANY stand-alone programming on 680. Absolutely pointless.

Surely, something could be found for this once-proud signal. And, I don't care if it appeals to me or not; I just don't want to see it wasted.

DE

I think a signal that nice would make a good home for oldies or classic R&B.

Back on topic, how is Pacifica's 94.1 doing in San Francisco? I think it would get more listeners as a country station.

 

[schmave]

I want to say CKLW, but I don't particularly feel like starting an argument on big Canadian signals near the border.

I kinda agree with you on that, as the same owner is using a 50kW to cater only to Windsor whilst trying to serve the whole Detroit market on both sides of the river with their 500-watt sister.

Especially now that they have so many other options. Since CBEF abandoned 540, CKWW (580) could likely make a significant upgrade using their existing array on 540, where they would not have to protect WTCM and WKBN (not to suggest that they're doing that now on 580 anyway)

An even juicier upgrade would be to get CFCO to switch to 540 so CKWW could go to 630 (escaping the wall of IBOC from WRDT 560)

At the very least, they should undo their mistake of 25 years ago, bring back "The Big 8" and put the Windsor talk on 580 (630 or 540).

That was my thinking, and I'm glad someone closer to that area chimed in. I will say CKWW does get out ... I listened for 15 or 20 miles between Columbus and Cleveland on I-71 a few weeks ago. But 800 would be well-used for a format that appeals to both sides of the river. I always thought in the days before CBS scooped up the Detroit sports teams' rights that CKLW could have been a flagship for one of those teams.
As long as 580 and other stations continue to serve Windsor, no harm, no foul. And it's not like 800 wouldn't serve Windsor while it is a viable station in Detroit as well.

 

[DeadElvis]

> I think a signal that nice would make a good home for oldies or classic R&B.

During its lifetime, it has been both. Many years ago, it was Oldies ("Gold 680," was it?). It was live and did OK as the then-only sister to WRVR. Later, it became WJCE/"The Juice." It did well, for a while. Such a format now would be tough, with 103.5 in-format, as well as other competitors playing much of the same music.

I am sure there are a few formats that might get SOME traction. What they might be is not the point; I just hate to see it merely idling. I suppose it might be useful as a station to feed a translator under the new rules.

Memphis does not have a polka station. All Megadeth is also open.

DE

 

[w9wi]

Especially now that they have so many other options. Since CBEF abandoned 540, CKWW (580) could likely make a significant upgrade using their existing array on 540, where they would not have to protect WTCM and WKBN (not to suggest that they're doing that now on 580 anyway)

CBEF abandoned 540 because the existing array was in bad shape & they felt it wasn't worth repairing.

(or were you talking about CKWW using the existing 580 towers on 540? My guess would be that the spacing/orientation of the 580 towers are way wrong for the pattern that would be necessary to operate on 540.)

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

It would probably be easier to move WRDT to 540, though the phases would have to be adjusted to shift the maximum, which is easier with a parallelogram. But it would allow up to 500 watts at night, since that is all the Agreement with Mexico allows at night in the US. They would also have to maintain or improve overlaps with WGR and WKRC. Maybe David can refresh our memory as to why the negotiations broke down that would have allowed 1000 watts night on Mexico's Clear Channels. Since Mexico's AMs are moving to FM, you would think that would be a moot point anyway. The most power would probably be allowed with CKWW on 540 and WRDT on 580 with ideal patterns. The problem with 560 is that CFOS is right in the major lobe of the WRDT array for nighttime use. And CFOS has awesome daytime coverage stretching from New York to Michigan, so it probably doesn't want to abandon AM. Canada should modify its duopoly rules to allow 3 FM and 1 AM in a market or 3 AM and 1 FM, if anyone wanted that combination.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

(or were you talking about CKWW using the existing 580 towers on 540? My guess would be that the spacing/orientation of the 580 towers are way wrong for the pattern that would be necessary to operate on 540.)

Historically, they both shot their signal basically northeast. CKWW, before it swapped formats with CKLW, always prided itself on being the Windsor station for the people of Windsor.

Don't have the software to confirm it, but I believe the CKWW array's NW null is sufficient to protect CBK, the SW and S nulls to protect XEWA and WCKY, and its E and SE nulls to protect WGR (note that they don't have to protect WGR on Canadian earth). The one fly in the ointment would be if CRTC wanted to keep the vacant Ottawa assignment protected.

 

[Bongwater]

- Radio Disney
- Family Radio
- All these worthless CSN/K-Love/Air 1/Effect/AFR/BBN FM repeater/translators everywhere
- Sports stations
- AM stations running Coast to Coast AM on nearly every freaking frequency all night long
- Unnecessary public radio repeater/translators
- Cities with 3 or more conservative talk stations with no station counter programming (i.e. Progressive Talk) Hint: Not everyone is a dittohead.

 

[davideduardo]

- Radio Disney

As opposed to many AMs, the Disney stations actually get some measured listening and are serving what is certainly an under-served group.

- All these worthless CSN/K-Love/Air 1/Effect/AFR/BBN FM repeater/translators everywhere

The K-Love stations, when on larger facilities, actually get very, very good numbers and that means that there is a broad acceptance for their brand of Christian music programming.

- Sports stations

I'm guessing that this is just personal "uselessness" and not your indictment of the tastes of others... but sports radio is one of the more popular formats and, at least in my opinion, one of the areas where creative, personality radio is still being done.

- AM stations running Coast to Coast AM on nearly every freaking frequency all night long

Very few of those stations overlap in their useful coverage areas. And C2C is certainly the most successful overnight programming ever offered.

- Unnecessary public radio repeater/translators

Most of those are used to fill in areas where there is limited signal availability unless you are a DXer.

- Cities with 3 or more conservative talk stations with no station counter programming (i.e. Progressive Talk) Hint: Not everyone is a dittohead.

But if a market has that many conservative talkers and no liberal talk outlet, it's because the conservative formats get listening and advertiser response and the "other" format does not.

 

[boiseengineer]

CKWW day & night pattern:
http://transition.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/314710-66935.pdf

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

You have to also ask where the existing array is located compared to what the pattern would need to be. CBEF 540 and CKWW 580 are oriented more toward Canada, and the necessary maximum and pattern might miss the US largely from Monroe. Ideally, CKWW would take over the 540 array and rebuild it. If WRDT then switched to 580, it would have to protect WTCM with the night pattern, limiting west side service at least at night. WTCM's NIF, around 8 mV/m, is quite low for a station that moved to the frequency in 1981, so it does require substantial protection.

 

[gar hi]

Aside from Radio Disney which is aimed at kids who don't even listen to AM radio, I guess what's considered a wasted signals is pretty much a matter of opinion.

I wouldn't exactly call it a wasted signal but I don't get the popularity of stations that play the same worn out songs constantly to the point you never want to hear them again while ignoring the other countless songs they have in their libraries but only play them on special occasions.

Every time I hear songs like 'Play that Funky Music', 'What a Fool Believes', 'Hotel California', 'I Will Survive', 'Who'll Stop The Rain', 'Brown Eyed Girl', 'Staying Alive', etc, I turn off the radio.

Someone once explained it's because surveys have been done and that's what sells or something but I can't imagine people actually wanting to hear the same few songs all the time and no variety.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[audioguy]

In the "wasted signal" category, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this so I will, although I have mixed feelings about it. With so many AM's now having FM translators, would you consider the AM signals to be wasted? They brand the station with the FM frequency almost 99 times out of 100. How many listeners are still listening to those AM's? Couldn't they be shut down and just have those stations operate on their FM channels?

OK, so here's the other side of the coin... keeping those AM's alive means that some unique formats are available on AM that otherwise would not be. I guess this is mainly of interest to people like me who enjoy listening to AM when there is something on the air we are interested in (such as music, in my case).

 

[davideduardo]

Couldn't they be shut down and just have those stations operate on their FM channels?

The problem is that the translator has to have something to "translate". So the AM is essential to keeping the FM. The FCC, though, should accept your suggestion.

 

[davideduardo]

Aside from Radio Disney which is aimed at kids who don't even listen to AM radio, I guess what's considered a wasted signals is pretty much a matter of opinion.

Actually, with Disney's target of 6-11, they are aiming at the only demo that does not have any dislike of AM.

Someone once explained it's because surveys have been done and that's what sells or something but I can't imagine people actually wanting to hear the same few songs all the time and no variety.

Yep, actual listening tests eliminate most songs from the past, and find the ones people want to still hear. The perception of variety actually increases with shorter lists of only the most widely accepted songs.

 

[gar hi]

People can not be so lame that they only want to hear the same extremely limited rotation of the same worn out songs all the time.

Everyone I know has made this observation. Google the topic of why do oldies and classic rock stations play the same songs all the time and you see so many people are wondering the same thing.

Boredom goes against human nature. It has to be a big part of the reason a lot of people are going to internet only radio stations. You can find actual variety there.

 

[bobdavcav]

I am surprised there has been no mention of KFNQ. They were progressive talk KPTK getting I think a steady 1.8 share until January when they flipped to CBS Sports. Since then they haven't shown up at all. I do agree that Disney should get another signal in NYC, but I don't agree fully that all Disney stations ar wasted signals.

 

[Bill Shadowcat]

In the "wasted signal" category, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this so I will, although I have mixed feelings about it. With so many AM's now having FM translators, would you consider the AM signals to be wasted? They brand the station with the FM frequency almost 99 times out of 100. How many listeners are still listening to those AM's? Couldn't they be shut down and just have those stations operate on their FM channels?

OK, so here's the other side of the coin... keeping those AM's alive means that some unique formats are available on AM that otherwise would not be. I guess this is mainly of interest to people like me who enjoy listening to AM when there is something on the air we are interested in (such as music, in my case).

I think that IF the FM effectively covers the area that the AM does, the AM signal is definitely mostly wasted as many more of the listeners would be listening to the station on the FM instead of the AM, especially when there are storms in the area making AM more or less unlistenable. So just make it an FM station. As for what to do with the AM? Is there a format in the area that isn't covered? One could make it that format. Or maybe one could try an experimental format such as Symphonic Metal or something?

 

[Jul]

WPHT 1210 AM in Philadelphia is one.