Wasted signals

[charlestondxman]

It's not obsolete if it gets listeners. That's the bottom line. That's what it is all about. My market for example. We have a 100kw classic rock at 104.5. Has one of the most boring morning shows in radio with Bob and Tom.

It has played the same classic rock format, with what seems like 200-300 songs, but it consistently gets a 3-4 share in the ratings.

 

[gar hi]

200 to 300 sounds like a lot because most classic rock stations also play the same worn out songs like oldies stations.

I remember in the mid 90s, a new classic rock station came on the air here and I was blown away by all the forgotten great popular album cuts they played.

It was so nice hearing all the stuff I listened to on FM in high school, the songs you never heard on typical classic rock stations.

They had a weak signal but it didn't matter. But I knew it was too good to be true, that they would not last for some reason even though everyone I knew my age was so excited about the station.

So they went off the air for a short time and then came back on another frequency with a good signal but they were not the same. They were then run by one of the big corporations and played the usual worn out songs you don't want to hear anymore.

 

[davideduardo]

200 to 300 sounds like a lot because most classic rock stations also play the same worn out songs like oldies stations.

Except for a few AMs in larger markets such as Denver and a few smaller market FMs, there are no oldies stations left.

Classic rock stations, based on a 7-day cycle, generally have somewhere between 500 and 800 cuts in rotation, excluding specialty shows.

Classic Hits stations (what most Oldies stations morphed into) are more in the 700 to 900 song range.

 

[davideduardo]

I know for a fact that even scientific research can be and has been faked, or is in some other way scientifically and or statistically invalid. Why would I believe that such unscientific and improperly controlled record testing research is "unimpeachable"? The only reason I can think of is that no better research has YET come forward.

Historically, there has been a lot of bad research. It's usually one of two cases: the station does not know what it needs to find out, and specified the wrong kind of testing or, possibly, the research company was not among those qualified or skilled enough to do the project.

But in general, a music test where the station knows how to develop correct specifications and the research company knows how to recruit and conduct the test, the results are highly reliable.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that anyone who has tested and programmed against a non-testing station... or who has tested for the first time... knows. Generally, the testing station whups the competitor and the station that starts testing increases its audience. Alone, I can tell dozens and dozens of those stories.

One of the reasons stations continue to spend money on music tests (a single test runs above $30,000 and sometimes double that) is that the results are seen in Arbitron, with one of the characteristics of test participants being that they are research friendly, the same quality that defines a PPM or diary respondent.

In fact, music test recruit methods closely resemble ratings recruits, and share the same sound statistical probability sampling techniques.

 

[davideduardo]

Meanwhile, KLUV, KONO, KRTH, WCBS keep right on making big bucks on supposedly obsolete music programmed to people with one foot in the grave and the other on a walking stick - who never buy anything and are so set in their ways they will never buy anything new ...

Just so you know, none of those are Oldies stations. They are classic hits stations, and have been gradually eliminating 60's music to avoid appealing only to over-55 listeners.

KLUV has not done particularly well lately in 25-54, and the revenue is falling. Obviously, they will have to continue to contemporize the playlist.

KRTH is the subject of many opinions and rumors about a format switch, as they are "out of the money" in LA... and have hired a new PD to make things improve.

Even KONO, traditionally a very old-music leaning station, has killed a lot of the older stuff and continues to do that.

And, again, advertisers don't think that older consumers do not make purchases. But they do know that the return on investment when advertising to seniors is low or non-existent.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Meanwhile, KLUV, KONO, KRTH, WCBS keep right on making big bucks on supposedly obsolete music programmed to people with one foot in the grave and the other on a walking stick - who never buy anything and are so set in their ways they will never buy anything new ...

Just so you know, none of those are Oldies stations. They are classic hits stations, and have been gradually eliminating 60's music to avoid appealing only to over-55 listeners.

KLUV has not done particularly well lately in 25-54, and the revenue is falling. Obviously, they will have to continue to contemporize the playlist.

KRTH is the subject of many opinions and rumors about a format switch, as they are "out of the money" in LA... and have hired a new PD to make things improve.

Even KONO, traditionally a very old-music leaning station, has killed a lot of the older stuff and continues to do that.

And, again, advertisers don't think that older consumers do not make purchases. But they do know that the return on investment when advertising to seniors is low or non-existent.

Did you notice a trend in your post? KLUV and the other drop 60's, and the ratings go down - DUH!!!! If I were one of those stations, I think I'd have a lightbulb moment and start playing 60's again!

 

[gar hi]

Classic rock stations, based on a 7-day cycle, generally have somewhere between 500 and 800 cuts in rotation, excluding specialty shows.

Classic Hits stations (what most Oldies stations morphed into) are more in the 700 to 900 song range.

I'm sure they have that many songs in their music library but no way do they play that many songs in rotation.

Ours don't anyway.

As much as I complain about the very limited song rotation of the oldies/classic rock stations, I still listen when I'm in the car if they happen to play a song or songs that are played fairly often but not nearly as often as those other ones I previously referred to, plus I refuse to pay for satellite radio.

Speaking of old stations, we had an all 70s station back in the 90s and it was exciting when it first came out because 70s music was not heard much on the radio until the early-mid 90s when the 70s nostalgia thing got going.

They too would stick to a very limited rotation of songs but they had an interesting format every Sunday called 'Class Reunion Sunday' where all day from early morning to midnight they would play nothing but songs from a specific year (a different year each week) and that's when you heard all the good lost forgotten songs that were not played at all during their regular programming. Many of the songs were #1 songs by well known artists.

I wish other stations would at least do more specialty programming like that so they can bring out songs from their library that are never played.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm sure they have that many songs in their music library but no way do they play that many songs in rotation.

Actually, they do. Confirmed by BDS for actual plays. Obviously, some play once a week, some play once a day... and if you look over longer periods of time, the counts tend to be around 900 for classic rock stations.

Ours don't anyway.

WMXJ is right in the middle of the Classic Hits range... about 750 songs spun at least once a week.

I wish other stations would at least do more specialty programming like that so they can bring out songs from their library that are never played.

Keep in mind that specialty shows tend to run on weekend nights for a reason: nobody is listening to radio in general so there is nothing to lose.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

How about a NON-wasted signal, just for contrast ?

I work numerous odd jobs in retirement. And I bring along the portable radio to all of them. Painting, roofing, electric wiring, new flooring ...... the GE Superadio II or the Grundig S450 is right there.

The highest Time spent Listening, by far, is to AM daytimer WLSH Lansford PA. They're the sister station to the more prestigious WMGH-FM (Magic 105.5).

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WLSH&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

They are semi-automated (and sound it) and all but one of their announcers sounds straight out of high school, but the music mix at 'Oldies 1410' is very worthwhile.

In just two sessions I wrote these songs down :
Sally Go Round The Roses ..... Dang Me ..... Be My Baby ..... I Fall To Pieces ..... Cowboys To Girls ..... Runaround ..... Wooden Heart ..... Playboy ..... Running Bear ..... They're Coming To Take Me Away Ha Ha (lunch request)..... Pipeline ..... You Got It ..... Wild Thing ..... Three Nights A Week You're Gone ..... Blue On Blue ..... Denise .....

When they go on automation, maybe 3PM, they do tend to get mellow AC. That's the format they partially inherited from their big-sister, super-processed, passed-Inspector #34 WMGH-FM.

Our Schuylkill County PA is largely unrated. So no stations show up well because there's no Schuylkill book. Thing is, this daytime/directional/AM WLSH 1410 would show up in the nearest ratings book -- Scranton Wilkes-Barre -- with a 0.5 or a 0.4 quite often. Those were the same ratings achieved in the book by the huge Hot A/C station T-102, and often ahead of the big-sister Magic 105.5.

WLSH is too cool. It's great to see/hear some Oldies variety working.

 

[davideduardo]

notice a trend in your post? KLUV and the other drop 60's, and the ratings go down - DUH!!!! If I were one of those stations, I think I'd have a lightbulb moment and start playing 60's again!

No, the dropping of 60's generally is accompanied by ratings going up in the ages that matter for sales... under 55.

All these stations thwarted, to some degree, severe 25-54 erosion by nuking the stuff only the Medicare crowd would appreciate. But in most cases, they have still not done enough, and generally half their audience or more is 55+ and quite useless to radio in the business sense.

Some stations that have made more drastic cuts in the 60's material and even early 70's stuff, like KOLA, have been rewarded by considerable 25-54 growth. But looking at the 6+ numbers for KOLA going back to the pre-change era, it appears to be off a bit. In fact, in 25-54 it is up from the mid-3 range to the low 5 share range... from around 8th in the sales demo to second or third.

 

[davideduardo]

WLSH is too cool. It's great to see/hear some Oldies variety working.

And in an unrated market, that is a perfect use for an AM daytimer!

 

[1L6E6VHF]

200 to 300 sounds like a lot because most classic rock stations also play the same worn out songs like oldies stations.

Except for a few AMs in larger markets such as Denver and a few smaller market FMs, there are no oldies stations left.

Well, I get the 40's on 4, the 60's on 5 (typo deliberate) and the (late) 60's on 6.

To me, AM and FM radio are like the son you loved, but sadly had to kick out of the house when he became addicted to junk.

 

[ftballfan]

Hell, I've heard some early 1980s stuff on TOC recently!

Speaking of classic hits, Traverse City has two simulcasting pairs of classic hits stations.

 

[firepoint525]

People who post about repetition in oldies and classic rock do not tend to be typical listeners and represent a rather extreme fringe that can't be pleased anyway.

Yet another attempt at maligning and marginalizing us.

Anyone here who has ever been "tested," raise your hand. (I didn't think so.)

 

[firepoint525]

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-164473.html

Great quote from that site:

Another thing that grinds my ass is (Clearchannel) radio stations that call themselves "new". We have a couple that have had the same name and format since 2001, and they call themselves "The new blah blah point blah, the blah blah".:

Ah, I feel vindicated. I am NOT the only one who thinks this way! 8)

The few decide what the many will get.

EXACTLY! And the few who decide are the ones who don't really give a damn in the first place.

Everyone take note. In the future, there will probably be far fewer songs written about the joys of listening to the radio (than there have been in the past), because it ISN'T a joy for most of us anymore.

 

[firepoint525]

That's another thing I don't get, the latest trend for FM stations to go sports but they are just a simulcast of what's still being broadcast on AM which has much better coverage.

Back around 2002, there was an attempt to convert WSM-AM here in Nashville (which has an excellent signal) over to sports, but Gaylord (WSM's owner) completely botched the attempt at a switch, and after much outcry, was forced to remain country. I said then, and I still say now, that Gaylord only postponed the inevitable. My parents still listen to them, but they are 74 and 82 now.

After the failure of the WSM switch, the sports-talkers took over two FM stations here in Nashville. That probably would not have happened as fast (if at all) had Gaylord not botched the WSM switch.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

That's another thing I don't get, the latest trend for FM stations to go sports but they are just a simulcast of what's still being broadcast on AM which has much better coverage.

Back around 2002, there was an attempt to convert WSM-AM here in Nashville (which has an excellent signal) over to sports, but Gaylord (WSM's owner) completely botched the attempt at a switch, and after much outcry, was forced to remain country. I said then, and I still say now, that Gaylord only postponed the inevitable. My parents still listen to them, but they are 74 and 82 now.

After the failure of the WSM switch, the sports-talkers took over two FM stations here in Nashville. That probably would not have happened as fast (if at all) had Gaylord not botched the WSM switch.

Thank god there was a botched switch. If they had made any attempt to switch WSM to sports, they would have found out just how "irrelevant" DX'ers are, the outrage from all over the country would be swift and vocal! I'm not a big fan of country, but my wife is. She is no DX'er, but listens to WSM, putting up with the occasional fade. Given that most radio commercials are for national products and services anyway - a DX listener to WSM is carrying as much weight to advertisers as a local one. And I have a feeling those sponsoring commercials for national products and services know this well.

Sports ruined KVNS, lets hope it never ruins WSM!

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

WWKBW 1520 in Buffalo might qualify for the list.

But it seems that time has passed them by, too. It might've happened as far back as thirty years. Yet that huge signal remains. In winter months they often BOOM into NE PA here before the sun is set, louder than any of our county's AM stations.

I forget the exact wording of their cheery, 60's promotional phrase. It went something like they were 'heard in 58 states and 16 provinces ' .....
No doubt they were! Lore has it that they'd show up in ratings books all over the place, particularly at night.

That signal is still covering all that real estate.
But for whom ?

At nights here, WWKBW is there with Alan Colmes and Phil Hendrie for the occasional talk-show fare.
Yawn. Colmes is a sometimes-funny motormouth, glib and chipmunkish. Hendrie and his 'sidekicks' is a bore. To me, this is not nighttime radio. Play some music, guys. Do some Joey Reynolds.

Oh, wait. WWKBW tried Oldies about a decade ago. Even with Jackson Armstrong doing his 200-MPH thing at night, this once classic signal got like a 0.6.

 

[audioguy]

I am very thankful WSM remains the country legend. I am not a big fan of country but I do enjoy listening to WSM. It is a unique station. One of the few remaining stations worth keeping on the air.

 

[firepoint525]

Thank god there was a botched switch. If they had made any attempt to switch WSM to sports, they would have found out just how "irrelevant" DX'ers are, the outrage from all over the country would be swift and vocal! I'm not a big fan of country, but my wife is. She is no DX'er, but listens to WSM, putting up with the occasional fade. Given that most radio commercials are for national products and services anyway - a DX listener to WSM is carrying as much weight to advertisers as a local one. And I have a feeling those sponsoring commercials for national products and services know this well.
Sports ruined KVNS, lets hope it never ruins WSM!

I am very thankful WSM remains the country legend. I am not a big fan of country but I do enjoy listening to WSM. It is a unique station. One of the few remaining stations worth keeping on the air.

It is unlikely that, even if the flip had happened, that WSM would have dropped the Opry. They probably would have kept it anyway, as a compromise.

It is worth noting that when Gaylord had Dave Ramsey, they at least occasionally aired him on Sunday evenings. So they were never wall-to-wall country anyway. And they only went full-time country sometime in the last 20-30 years. They were actually AC (at least in the daytime) back in the '70s.