WAWZ

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> >
> > Metropolitan areas are defined as contiguous locations
> > that share common interests, be they economic,
> demographic,
> > or political.
>
> Actually, the Bureau of Managment & Budget defines
> Metropolitan Statistica Areas and Consolidated Metropolitan
> statistical Areas. The keyword is "Budget." The definition
> is purely economic, and takes into account commute patterns,
> distribution of goods and services, and many other items
> related to economic activity.
>
> The criteria has nothing to do with local politics, and the
> demographic data is a result of the market definition, not a
> cause.
>
> > While New York City borders such places as
> > Bayonne, Elizabeth, Jersey City, Union City, etc. it
> > shares little in common with them other than the weather.
>
> It is, economically, part of the NY metro.
> >
> > The federal government defines metropolitan areas and
> > recognizes several in the region, including the Newark
> > Metropolitan Area.
>
> Just as San Jose is a separate metro, but embedded in the NY
> metro.
>
> > The criteria for such determinations
> > are the ties that bind urban and suburban areas together.
>
> No, they are not. What binds a metro together is purely
> economic. Trade, commuting, etc.
>
> > Certainly, the counties in New Jersey do not share a
> > common political interest with New York City.
>
> Which is why polital distinction are not part of the metro
> definition.
>
> > The vast
> > majority of people in northern New Jersey work in other
> > locations in New Jersey, not New York. Shopping and
> > other aspects of the economy also are not shared.
>
> That is just wrong. How many Manhattan companies have
> warehousing, branches and offices in NJ, Westchester, Long
> Island and even out to Bridgeport? They are all interlaced.
> The local economies support the regional economy.
>
> > The issue of the radio or TV market is another thing. It
> > has to do with the way the FCC has allocated broadcast
> > services.
>
> No, it has to do with how people listen to radio or watch
> TV. Aribtron often has separate radio MSAs based on
> listening patterns that are bigger, smaller or different
> fromt he BMB definition.
>
> > Frankly, for many decades there was just one..just
> >
> > one...television assignment in all of New Jersey. That was
>
> > Channel 13, which, as we know, was effectively taken away
> > from the state in the 1960s. The distribution of those TV
> > allocations in the 1940s was anything but fair and
> > equitable,
> > but the FCC has long been able to rule without supervision
>
> > by Congress.
>
> The allocations in the 40's had to do with existing
> population and were fair at the time.
>
> > The broadcast tail wags the FCC dog to this
> > day. The media interests in New York City will not allow
> > any competition for the viewers and audience in northern
> > New Jersey and the FCC has long been willing to comply
> > with their requests.
>
> Wrong. There is no way of shoehorning in more FMs and TVs.
> The band is already overcongested. What happened in the 40's
> can not be changed.
> >
> > As an aside, it's interesting to consider the bogus
> > phrase "Tri-State Area," that is so often used by
> > the New York media. New Jersey and Connecticut have
> > little connection with each other. Indeed, they are
> > considered to be in different parts of the country
> > (Mid-Atlantic and New England).
>
> Economically, they are what used to be called a "trade area"
> and are interlocked like no other area in the US.
>


David shoots from the hip...All opinion, few facts.

I really don't feel like doing all the research now to
show that he is wrong. If David had done the research
I would not have to respond now. But I should oblige by
doing a little.

If you believe David (a risky proposition), you would think
that metropolitan areas are defined only on economic factors.
That's not true, of course. There are many resources on the
Internet to see this, but here's just one:

"Metropolitan Statistical Areas have at least one urbanized area
of 50,000 or more population, plus adjacent territory that has a
high degree of social and economic integration with the core as
measured by commuting ties."

From: http://www.calmis.cahwnet.gov/htmlfile/msadeftx.htm

The key words above are "a high degree" and "social and
economic integration." People in Morris County, for
example, do NOT have a high degree of social integration
with, for example, folks in Brooklyn. The demographics are
very different.

I'll let you folks figure out this one from David:

"Just as San Jose is a separate metro, but embedded
in the NY metro."

And I thought David knew the way to San Jose. Sigh...

I wrote,

"The vast majority of people in northern New Jersey
work in other locations in New Jersey, not New York."

To this David replied:

"That is just wrong."

People who live and work in New Jersey know that
David is wrong, but let him look up the statistis
on commuting patterns in northern New Jersey and
see if he'll come back and defend his position with
facts.

David writes,

"The allocations in the 40's had to do with
existing population and were fair at the time."

David didn't do his homework.

In 1950 the population of the entire state of
New Jersey was 4,835,329. In the same year,
the population of New York City and its immediate
suburban counties was 9,018,138. During the late
1940s the FCC allocated to New York Channels 2, 4,
5, 7, 9, and 11. Six channels in all just for the
New York City area. At the same time they allocated
just one VHF outlet...Channel 13...to the entire
state of New Jersey. The statistics show that the
New York area was NOT six times as large as the
entire state of New Jersey.

The TV allocations in the 1940s were not fair.
They gave to a state as large as New Jersey just
one VHF allocation. It was fair only to the media
interests in New York City, not to the citizens.
And those media interests still prevent the development
of a broadcast industry in northern and central New
Jersey.

 

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> > West Palm Beach and Miami are at least part of the same
> > state with many shared interests. Newark and New York
> City
> > are not related by demograhics, politics, or economy.
> > Those who live in this area understand that. Those who
> > live in New York, sadly, don't.
>
> How bizarre. My NY offices are in two locations in Midtown,
> and one great big on in NJ and a backup site, also in NJ.
> Half our staff lives in NJ and works in the city.
> >
>
Bizarre is right!! David attempts to bolster his
arguments by citing the people in his office. Why
don't you find real hard statistics on commuting
patterns in northern New Jersey and then see if
they support your opinions. I know you wouldn't,
because they don't.

As he mentions in another post, David works for
WXTV. That's Channel 41. It was allocated to
Paterson and should be serving that city and the
greater Passaic County area. Instead it broadcasts
primarily to Spanish-speaking residents of New York
City. WXTV is what's wrong about broadcasting in
New Jersey.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

>
>
> David shoots from the hip...All opinion, few facts.

The only relevant fact is that the OMB defines the area as a MSA and that the definition of an MSA has nothing to do with any other factor than economics and trade.
>
> I really don't feel like doing all the research now to
> show that he is wrong. If David had done the research
> I would not have to respond now. But I should oblige by
> doing a little.
>
> If you believe David (a risky proposition), you would think
> that metropolitan areas are defined only on economic
> factors.

Exactly how they are defined by the OMB. Arbitron redefines some based on radio listening in each county of an area.

> That's not true, of course. There are many resources on the
> Internet to see this, but here's just one:

There is only one relevant definition, which is the OMB definition. The OMB invented (As the BMB) the definition 50 years ago and any other definition is not the "efficial" one, including modified Arbitron and Nielsen ones.
>
> "Metropolitan Statistical Areas have at least one urbanized
> area
> of 50,000 or more population, plus adjacent territory that
> has a
> high degree of social and economic integration with the core
> as
> measured by commuting ties."

"Social" in this context, if you read the OMB publications, means "interaction." It does not mean that the residents have immense block parties.
>
> From: http://www.calmis.cahwnet.gov/htmlfile/msadeftx.htm
>
> The key words above are "a high degree" and "social and
> economic integration." People in Morris County, for
> example, do NOT have a high degree of social integration
> with, for example, folks in Brooklyn. The demographics are
> very different.

You have no clue as to what demographers refer to as "social" interaction and integration. This meaning of "social" does not refer to socializing and partying. It has to do with SOCIETY. That is, living together in an integrated social system in are with an interlocking economic dependencies.
>
> I'll let you folks figure out this one from David:
>
> "Just as San Jose is a separate metro, but embedded
> in the NY metro."
>
> And I thought David knew the way to San Jose. Sigh...

Many CMSAs and MSAs have subsets in them that are called "embeded metros." San Jose and Santa Rosa are embeded in the San Francisco CMSA because they have s subset of the larger regional economy of the CMSA. THis is a standard demographic definition. The fact that you are ignorant of terms of demography and statistics is not my fault.
>

> People who live and work in New Jersey know that
> David is wrong, but let him look up the statistis
> on commuting patterns in northern New Jersey and
> see if he'll come back and defend his position with
> facts.

Not everyone has to commute for an economy to be interrelated. Some commute. Some live and work in a small area, as they work in services, private and public, that support the commuters. But the bigger picture is that the distributors, ttrade patterns, and economic activity make up an OMB defined metro. The OMB website shows the criteria, which are many tiers of economic indcators.
>
> David writes,
>
> "The allocations in the 40's had to do with
> existing population and were fair at the time."
>
> David didn't do his homework.
>
> In 1950 the population of the entire state of
> New Jersey was 4,835,329. In the same year,
> the population of New York City and its immediate
> suburban counties was 9,018,138. During the late
> 1940s the FCC allocated to New York Channels 2, 4,
> 5, 7, 9, and 11. Six channels in all just for the
> New York City area. At the same time they allocated
> just one VHF outlet...Channel 13...to the entire
> state of New Jersey. The statistics show that the
> New York area was NOT six times as large as the
> entire state of New Jersey.

But, most of the poulation of the New Jersy residents fell under the umbrella of the NY allocations or the Philly ones. The FCC did this sort of thing all over in TV... they felt that cities of a certain population could support 5 to 6 allocations, others 4, and most in the 2 to 3 range. The felt that smaller cities could not support TV in the shadow of larger cities, which is why markets like Riverside and San Bernardino had no VHF allocations, just like most Jersey cities.

I went back the the first issue of the table of FM allocations on the new band in the 1946 Broadcasting Yearbook and found that there were very few fringe suburban allocations (fringe meaning on the far edges of a metro, not in the towns inside a metro) becaus the FCC felt that such communities could not sustain a station. As the TV table was ammended after the 1950 freeze, it was decided to try to give each market of any large size a station for each network (remebering that there were going to be 4 nets, including duMont) and dual affiliations in others. But they did not think shadow markets could support VHF channels, which is why Sandusky, outside Cleveland, did not get one... just like the NJ towns in the shados of Philly and NY.
>
> The TV allocations in the 1940s were not fair.

Actually, the allocations were totally redone in the time of the freeze. It's you who has not done thier homework. The base table, often ammended later, was produced durning the freeze.

> They gave to a state as large as New Jersey just
> one VHF allocation.

Allocations are not made by state but by population centers. NJ did not have a significant population center that was not part of the Philadelphia or NY metros, then or now.

There never was a quota of allocations by state. Signals do not stop at state lines. Signals are placed in centers of population, not at the edges or in the fringe areas.

> It was fair only to the media
> interests in New York City, not to the citizens.

Allocations were done stydying the lasws of physics and the propagation of radio waves, not by looking at whether a state got sleighted. People in the more populated areas got more channels. People in less populated ones got less.

> And those media interests still prevent the development
> of a broadcast industry in northern and central New
> Jersey.

No, the laws of physics prevent such a development. And were they
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> > > West Palm Beach and Miami are at least part of the same
> > > state with many shared interests. Newark and New York
> > City
> > > are not related by demograhics, politics, or economy.
> > > Those who live in this area understand that. Those who
> > > live in New York, sadly, don't.
> >
> > How bizarre. My NY offices are in two locations in
> Midtown,
> > and one great big on in NJ and a backup site, also in NJ.
> > Half our staff lives in NJ and works in the city.
> > >
> >
> Bizarre is right!! David attempts to bolster his
> arguments by citing the people in his office. Why
> don't you find real hard statistics on commuting
> patterns in northern New Jersey and then see if
> they support your opinions. I know you wouldn't,
> because they don't.

Of course the figures do. In every area in every metro, there are people who commute in, out and stay there. Those that commute work in one place and live in another. Those that do not commute are in the area and work in it to provide goods and services to the residents who do commute. This is, however, only one of the dozens of economic factors used to determine a metro.
>
> As he mentions in another post, David works for
> WXTV. That's Channel 41. It was allocated to
> Paterson and should be serving that city and the
> greater Passaic County area. Instead it broadcasts
> primarily to Spanish-speaking residents of New York
> City. WXTV is what's wrong about broadcasting in
> New Jersey.

Have you checked the Hispanic population of Passaic County? In 2005 census Bureau projections form Claritas, the county is 36% Hispanic. In fact, the entire state is nearly 15% Hispanic now, and the NE NJ area is over 25% Hispanic, close to the percentage of the entire NY MSA.

If you live in NE NJ and don't know one out of every four residents is Hispanic, then I can understand why you simply don't get what "serving a community" really means. WXTJ, for whom I DO NOT WORK serves the NY metro Hispanic community, which is about 4,000,000 in size. Which is a number equal to half the ENTIRE population in New Jersey!!!! Simply said, you want certain groups served, but not others. By this last statement, it would seem that you want one ethnicity served, while another is ignored. Not nice, sir.

 

[Harold]

Re: Metro Area Definition standards.

> > >
> > > Metropolitan areas are defined as contiguous locations
> > > that share common interests, be they economic,
> > demographic,
> > > or political.
> >
> > Actually, the Bureau of Managment & Budget defines
> > Metropolitan Statistica Areas and Consolidated
> Metropolitan
> > statistical Areas. The keyword is "Budget." The definition
>
> > is purely economic, and takes into account commute
> patterns,
> > distribution of goods and services, and many other items
> > related to economic activity.
>
> For a precise definition of what a MSA or MA or CMSA is, go
> to...
>
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg/metroareas122700.pdf
>

OK. Now we're cookin'!! David was kind enough to provide
us with a link to the Federal Register and the federal
government's definition of "Metropolitan Statistical Area."
It's from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Here's the official definition of Metropolitan Statistical
Area:

"A Core Based Statistical Area associated with at least one
urbanized area that has a population of at least 50,000.
The Metropolitan Statistical Area comprises the central
county or counties containing the core, plus adjacent
outlying counties having a HIGH DEGREE OF SOCIAL AND
ECONOMIC INTEGRATION with the central county as measured
through commuting." (Emphasis mine.)

This notion of core areas and "outlying counties" seemingly
is appropriate for many parts of the United States, especially
in areas where central cities were established within rural
areas. It clearly doesn't apply to northern New Jersey where,
in many places, the surrounding areas are larger in population
than the center city. The network of highways built since the
1950s has blurred distribution paths since suppliers and
supplied need no longer cling to the sides of railroad tracks
but can be located where convenient.

But the lesson we learn from the definition supplied by
David is that an area must have social as well as
economic integration to be considered part of a metropolitan
area. And it must be a high level of integration to boot.
Those living in northern New Jersey can assess whether their
lives depend on goods and services from New York City or
not. I know I can get any goods and services I want within
miles of where I live, from gourmet food to world-class
medical care.

I suppose it's worthwhile to bring this back to the salient
issue, i.e., the lack of a fair distribution of broadcast
services in this part of the country. To those who lack this
service, there clearly is a problem.

 

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

This is all so tiring. David puts out a raft of misinformation
laced with personal opinions and prejudices. Suffice it to say
that the readers of this forum are free to assess the situation
based on their own observations. Many live and work in northern
and central New Jersey and are savvy enough to sort hype from
fact.

So let me just deal with just one of your comments:

"You have no clue as to what demographers refer to as "social"
interaction and integration. This meaning of "social" does not
refer to socializing and partying. It has to do with SOCIETY.
That is, living together in an integrated social system in are
with an interlocking economic dependencies."

Through this piece of erudition David tries to characterize me
as a silly person who thinks "social" means "partying." I can't
point to a Nobel Prize on my mantle but I hope you will suppose
a greater degree of intellect than David assumes I have.

What does David tell us about the intent of the federal
government in including the concept of social integration
in their definition of Metropolitan Statistical Area?
Well the way David sees it "It has to do with SOCIETY?"
That clears things up, doesn't it? But wait. There's more.

David says that "social integration" means "living together
in an integrated social system.." There you have it!! I
know you feel enlightened now.

Perhaps someone else can weigh in and suggest what level
of social integration Morris County has with Kings County.
I can't think of two more disparate areas. Per capita
income, educational levels, ethnic distributions, etc.
are all very different. But David would have us believe
that these two political divisions are socially highly
integrated. It's beyond me to figure out that one. I
bet you too.

On the TV allocation business, I think I have already
commented sufficiently. All this talk of "laws of physics"
is intended to dazzle you but I don't think David has
established credentials to speak reliably about broadcast
engineering. There are people here who can.

I'll leave you with this from David:

"People in the more populated areas got more channels.
People in less populated ones got less."

Does this explain why both New Jersey and Delaware
each got one VHF allocation?

 

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> > > > West Palm Beach and Miami are at least part of the
> same
> > > > state with many shared interests. Newark and New York
>
> > > City
> > > > are not related by demograhics, politics, or economy.
> > > > Those who live in this area understand that. Those who
>
> > > > live in New York, sadly, don't.
> > >
> > > How bizarre. My NY offices are in two locations in
> > Midtown,
> > > and one great big on in NJ and a backup site, also in
> NJ.
> > > Half our staff lives in NJ and works in the city.
> > > >
> > >
> > Bizarre is right!! David attempts to bolster his
> > arguments by citing the people in his office. Why
> > don't you find real hard statistics on commuting
> > patterns in northern New Jersey and then see if
> > they support your opinions. I know you wouldn't,
> > because they don't.
>
> Of course the figures do. In every area in every metro,
> there are people who commute in, out and stay there. Those
> that commute work in one place and live in another. Those
> that do not commute are in the area and work in it to

> provide goods and services to the residents who do commute.
> This is, however, only one of the dozens of economic factors
> used to determine a metro.
> >
> > As he mentions in another post, David works for
> > WXTV. That's Channel 41. It was allocated to
> > Paterson and should be serving that city and the
> > greater Passaic County area. Instead it broadcasts
> > primarily to Spanish-speaking residents of New York
> > City. WXTV is what's wrong about broadcasting in
> > New Jersey.
>
> Have you checked the Hispanic population of Passaic County?
> In 2005 census Bureau projections form Claritas, the county
> is 36% Hispanic. In fact, the entire state is nearly 15%
> Hispanic now, and the NE NJ area is over 25% Hispanic, close
> to the percentage of the entire NY MSA.
>
> If you live in NE NJ and don't know one out of every four
> residents is Hispanic, then I can understand why you simply
> don't get what "serving a community" really means. WXTJ,
> for whom I DO NOT WORK serves the NY metro Hispanic
> community, which is about 4,000,000 in size. Which is a
> number equal to half the ENTIRE population in New Jersey!!!!
> Simply said, you want certain groups served, but not others.
> By this last statement, it would seem that you want one
> ethnicity served, while another is ignored. Not nice, sir.
>

Yes...I have checked the Hispanic population of Passaic
County. I have also checked the non-Hispanic population
of Passaic County. And if that's not enough, I have
checked the TV allocations for Passaic County. Of that
last item, there is only one...Channel 41.

Some 75 percent of Passaic County is listed as non-Hispanic
white and African-American. Considering there is just one...one...television
station in Passaic County don't you think that it would more
appropriately serve the majority of citizens..Hispanic and
non-Hispanic? Channel 41 operates as a New York City
station...not a Passaic County station. Don't you think
that ALL the citizens of Passaic County would be better
served by a station everyone could understand and appreciate?

It is wrong to characterize a person by the language
they speak. Most Hispanic people in this part of the
country speak English as well as Spanish. Like immigrants
in the past, the children will assimilate into the
general population and share its concerns and interests.
As they do they will be less and less interested in
what is going on in the old country and more concerned
about the schools and property taxes in their own
cities and towns.

In years past there were broadcast outlets that
catered to immigrants. WEVD, at one time, was "The
Station That Speaks Your Language." There's not much
Yiddish on the air in New York these days. Perhaps
none. I don't know of any stations broadcasting in
Italian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, German, etc. There
is some Korean, Chinese, etc. on the air, but not
much and not mainstream. Many children of immigrants
from East Asia no longer speak, or want to speak, the
language of their parents.

There is no reason to deny the vast majority of
citizens in Passaic County the local television
services they should, but don't, get from Channel 41.

Plumbing the depths, David writes,

"By this last statement, it would seem that you want
one ethnicity served, while another is ignored. Not
nice, sir."

You're right...I want the American ethnicity served.
Americans of every color, shape, size, race, religion,
gender, political belief, and...yes...creed. What
problem do you have with that David? It's not nice
to be anti-American. I hope you're not.

And because this is a radio forum, everything
above applies to radio too.

Now in my previous post I asked you for real
hard statistics on commuting patterns in the
region. As I suspected, you didn't. You did write,
"Those that commute work in one place and live in
another." I'll agree with that profound statement.
Then you write, "Those that do not commute are in
the area and work in it to provide goods and services
to the residents who do commute." Do I gather then
that people who commute do not provide goods and
services. If a person commutes from Scotch Plains
to Elizabeth, is that person really commuting?
They are merely moving from one part of Union
County to another. How about the person who
doesn't commute but works at home developing
business software? And what if that person who
travels to Elizabeth provides goods and services to
other commuters?

David also writes, "This is, however, only one of
the dozens of economic factors used to determine
a metro." I wouldn't ask you for those dozens of
factors but could you supply us with, say, 14 or 15?

 

[Jeffrey]

Re: Metro Area Definition standards.

Harold:
One can interpet your biast to NJ but you cannot negate as 99.9% people wouldn't that NY, NJ and CT are 1 metro area. You can compare apples to oranges for months but the facts remain.
You are interpreting the facts as you want to see them.

 

[Harold]

Re: Metro Area Definition standards.

> Harold:
> One can interpet your biast to NJ but you cannot negate as
> 99.9% people wouldn't that NY, NJ and CT are 1 metro area.
> You can compare apples to oranges for months but the facts
> remain.
> You are interpreting the facts as you want to see them.
>

Jeffrey:

You can't use the opinion of the public as a basis
for determining facts. Members of the general public
are in no better position to decide what is or is not
a metropolitan area then they are in assessing the
potential for a bird flu pandemic. They just don't
have the expertise and sufficient information to
come to a reasonable conclusion.

A person's opinions and beliefs are shaped in part
by the contact he or she has with family, friends,
co-workers, and others they encounter on a daily,
weekly, or monthly basis. As influential, or probably
more so, is the effect of the media in shaping beliefs.
Sadly, the old saw about "It must be true because it's
in the newspaper" still holds true for much of the
population. A prestigous newspaper or what appears to
be an established broadcast station get the benefit
of doubt when the average person assesses the truth of
what they read, hear, or view. I'm sure you understand
that the average person assumes that if a story is
presented on the front page of a newspaper or on the
nightly TV newscast that the story must be important.
This is the enormous power that is wielded, often
poorly, by the news managers at TV and radio stations.

New York business interests control what most people
in northern New Jersey see and hear on the air. The
viewpoints of New York stations and their management
translate into the choice of news presenters, editors,
writers, and the stories themselves. Because they are
part of the New York business scene, the broadcast
stations have a direct interest in seeing that the
interests of that business group is supported. Part of
this is conveying the impression that New York is a
good and substantial place in which to do business. It
also means that competing areas are appropriately
portrayed as undesireable places.

Creating the impression that New York City is at the
center of a huge, integrated political and social
area enhances the prestige of that city and encourages
viewers and listeners to believe that it is a good place
in which to invest. Rather than being a city of about
8 million people, a substantial portion of whom are
on the lower economic stratas, New York presents itself
as a metro area of 21 million. Included, but not
explained in that interpretation, are people in New
Jersey and Connecticut whose work output does not
contribute to the economic or social life of New York.

Throw into this mix the notion of elitism..that New York
is a great place and New Jersey is awful..and you have
much of what gets presented by the New York media.

Luckily for all of us, there is no reason to surmise,
conjecture, or opinionate about what is or is not part
of the New York or Newark metropolitan areas. As David
so kindly provided us with the Office of Management and
Budget definitions we know that the key to determining
what is a metro area is the level of economic and social
integration of the area. That level, we are told, must
be "high." Could anyone say that counties in New Jersey
and Connecticut are "highly" integrated, socially and
economically?

New Jersey, of course, if much larger than Connecticut.
Aside from market forces, the most important influence
on the economies of the two states are the regulatory
environment, substantially created by state and local
laws and court decisions. Neither state is bound by
the decisions of the other state's government.

You say that I'm interpreting the facts as I want to
see them. I have to disagree. I am being realistic.
And you can look at the same facts as I do. When you
do, you will see that New Jersey and Connecticut are
not highly integrated...economically, socially, or
otherwise.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Metro Area Definition standards.

>
> But the lesson we learn from the definition supplied by
> David is that an area must have social as well as
> economic integration to be considered part of a metropolitan
> area. And it must be a high level of integration to boot.
> Those living in northern New Jersey can assess whether their
> lives depend on goods and services from New York City or
> not. I know I can get any goods and services I want within
> miles of where I live, from gourmet food to world-class
> medical care.

"Social" in this context is an economic term, and has nothing to do with socializing. Please take a couple of economics courses and study demographics, too. You are using terms wrong.

You are also confusing retail with wholesale and manufacturer level distribution, where areas have centralized warehousing and distribution to serve a trade zone.

> I suppose it's worthwhile to bring this back to the salient
> issue, i.e., the lack of a fair distribution of broadcast
> services in this part of the country. To those who lack this
>
> service, there clearly is a problem.

There are many markets that grew considerably since the 40's and early 50's that were also found to be unbalanced in later decades. You can not change the laws of physics and propagation, nor can you yank licences. It's what we have.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

>
> Yes...I have checked the Hispanic population of Passaic
> County. I have also checked the non-Hispanic population
> of Passaic County. And if that's not enough, I have
> checked the TV allocations for Passaic County. Of that
> last item, there is only one...Channel 41.

But it is in the metro, and is expected to serve the coverage area just as much as the COL. Otherwise, it would be an LPTV station.
>
> Some 75 percent of Passaic County is listed as non-Hispanic
> white and African-American.

Your figures are off. Passaic has become more Hispanic since the 2000 Census, when it was 30% Hispanic, and is now around 35% Hispanic.

> Considering there is just
> one...one...television
> station in Passaic County don't you think that it would more
>
> appropriately serve the majority of citizens..Hispanic and
> non-Hispanic?

No. There are a dozenor so off air signals I can get on rabbit ears in Passaic. I have choices.

> Channel 41 operates as a New York City
> station...not a Passaic County station.

It operates as a New York NE NJ metro station, serving the needs of its coverage area, which is about 25% Hispanic.

> Don't you think
> that ALL the citizens of Passaic County would be better
> served by a station everyone could understand and
> appreciate?

How about the Hispanics who do not view English TV?
>
> It is wrong to characterize a person by the language
> they speak. Most Hispanic people in this part of the
> country speak English as well as Spanish.

No, they don't. Over 55% are Spanish dominant, and about 70% have Spanish as their birth tongue, indicating that they will perfer to view TV in Spanish, buth due to language and culture. I don't listen to English radio, yet I speak English OK.

> Like immigrants
> in the past, the children will assimilate into the
> general population and share its concerns and interests.

But, culturally, they will be Hispanic and need media that speaks to their interests, like Spanglish WCAA.

> As they do they will be less and less interested in
> what is going on in the old country and more concerned
> about the schools and property taxes in their own
> cities and towns.

Spanish media is about more than the old country. It is about Hispnic itnerests, culture, musical taste, fookd, lifestyle, etc. No general market station can address this for first and second generation Hispanics in its entirity.
>
> In years past there were broadcast outlets that
> catered to immigrants. WEVD, at one time, was "The
> Station That Speaks Your Language." There's not much
> Yiddish on the air in New York these days. Perhaps
> none. I don't know of any stations broadcasting in
> Italian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, German, etc. There
> is some Korean, Chinese, etc. on the air, but not
> much and not mainstream. Many children of immigrants
> from East Asia no longer speak, or want to speak, the
> language of their parents.

But this happens in the third generation. Second generation is bilingual, but culturally tied to the family culture. It has always happened that way.
>
> There is no reason to deny the vast majority of
> citizens in Passaic County the local television
> services they should, but don't, get from Channel 41.

There is nearly nowhere on the planet where a station can do local programming for one county. TV costs too much. All you would get is fourth run syndicated stuff that is all over cable, anyway.
>
> Plumbing the depths, David writes,
>
> "By this last statement, it would seem that you want
> one ethnicity served, while another is ignored. Not
> nice, sir."
>
> You're right...I want the American ethnicity served.

There is no "American ethnicity" America is a soup of many ethnicities, and each has the right to enjoy its own heritage in America.

> Americans of every color, shape, size, race, religion,
> gender, political belief, and...yes...creed. What
> problem do you have with that David? It's not nice
> to be anti-American. I hope you're not.

This makes no sense. Look up "ethnicity" in the dictionary. You so often seem to make your point by redifining at your convenience words and terms that I wonder whether you know what much of what you say really means.
>
> And because this is a radio forum, everything
> above applies to radio too.

So?
>
> Now in my previous post I asked you for real
> hard statistics on commuting patterns in the
> region. As I suspected, you didn't.

They are in the Census CDs. I am not going to research for you. Integration of an area is determined by much more than commutes. As I have said. Over and over.

> You did write,
> "Those that commute work in one place and live in
> another." I'll agree with that profound statement.
> Then you write, "Those that do not commute are in
> the area and work in it to provide goods and services
> to the residents who do commute." Do I gather then
> that people who commute do not provide goods and
> services.

The commuters engage in some activity in another part of the metro. However, local goods and services have to be available where those folks lives. Part of an integrated economy or metro economy supports the other part, as in the OMB definition of an MSA.

> If a person commutes from Scotch Plains
> to Elizabeth, is that person really commuting?
> They are merely moving from one part of Union
> County to another.

Unless they work at home, they are commuting. Yôu are redefining words again to fit your crooked agenda.

> How about the person who
> doesn't commute but works at home developing
> business software?

If you get on or in a vehicle to go to work somewhere else, you commute. That is the definition.

> And what if that person who
> travels to Elizabeth provides goods and services to
> other commuters?

They commute. That is the definition.
>
> David also writes, "This is, however, only one of
> the dozens of economic factors used to determine
> a metro." I wouldn't ask you for those dozens of
> factors but could you supply us with, say, 14 or 15?

See the OMB. It includes rail hubs, warehousing, retail chains, fast food franchise owners, newspaper circulation, and dozens and dozens and dozens of other factors.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

>
> I'll leave you with this from David:
>
> "People in the more populated areas got more channels.
> People in less populated ones got less."
>
> Does this explain why both New Jersey and Delaware
> each got one VHF allocation?
>

Allocations were centered to serve a population under the umbrella of metro or regional signals.

Unlike you, the FCC realizes signals go beyond city limits, and that cities are interrelated.

In fact, back when we had to do ascertainment, the FCC mandated we ascertain in our entire coverage area, not just the city of license because we had an obligation expressed at the time to serve the coverage area.

Since most of the population of NJ (when the TV channels were reallocated during the freeze) was under the NY and Philly umbrella, those central cities got most of the allocations.

 

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> >
> > I'll leave you with this from David:
> >
> > "People in the more populated areas got more channels.
> > People in less populated ones got less."
> >
> > Does this explain why both New Jersey and Delaware
> > each got one VHF allocation?
> >
>
> Allocations were centered to serve a population under the
> umbrella of metro or regional signals.
>
> Unlike you, the FCC realizes signals go beyond city limits,
> and that cities are interrelated.
>
> In fact, back when we had to do ascertainment, the FCC
> mandated we ascertain in our entire coverage area, not just
> the city of license because we had an obligation expressed
> at the time to serve the coverage area.
>
> Since most of the population of NJ (when the TV channels
> were reallocated during the freeze) was under the NY and
> Philly umbrella, those central cities got most of the
> allocations.
>

Sorry Charley..I mean David. That's not what history shows.

Section 307b of the Communications Act of 1934 makes it
clear that allocation of broadcast services must be done
on a state-by-state basis. There is no mention of "metro
areas."

Specifically, the Act mandated that the FCC "shall make a
fair and equitable allocation of licenses, frequencies,
time for operation, and station power to each of the
States and the District of Columbia, within each zone,
according to population."

As I explained previously, New York City alone was
allocated six VHF TV channels, the entire state of
New Jersey just one. The tiny state of Delaware
received one allocation too. Clearly, the TV allocations
did not satisfy the requirements set forth in the
enabling act for the FCC.

David recalls the days of ascertainment in which stations
"had an obligation expressed at the time to serve the
coverage area." Sad, but those stations never did serve
the coverage area...and don't to this day. The same goes
for AM and FM radio stations in New York City.

 

[Harold]

Re: Metro Area Definition standards.

> >
> > But the lesson we learn from the definition supplied by
> > David is that an area must have social as well as
> > economic integration to be considered part of a
> metropolitan
> > area. And it must be a high level of integration to boot.
> > Those living in northern New Jersey can assess whether
> their
> > lives depend on goods and services from New York City or
> > not. I know I can get any goods and services I want within
>
> > miles of where I live, from gourmet food to world-class
> > medical care.
>
> "Social" in this context is an economic term, and has
> nothing to do with socializing. Please take a couple of
> economics courses and study demographics, too. You are using
> terms wrong.
>
> You are also confusing retail with wholesale and
> manufacturer level distribution, where areas have
> centralized warehousing and distribution to serve a trade
> zone.
>
> > I suppose it's worthwhile to bring this back to the
> salient
> > issue, i.e., the lack of a fair distribution of broadcast
> > services in this part of the country. To those who lack
> this
> >
> > service, there clearly is a problem.
>
> There are many markets that grew considerably since the 40's
> and early 50's that were also found to be unbalanced in
> later decades. You can not change the laws of physics and
> propagation, nor can you yank licences. It's what we have.
>


I will present again a section of David's comments from
above because they are instructive:

>"Social" in this context is an economic term, and has
> nothing to do with socializing. Please take a couple of
> economics courses and study demographics, too. You are using
> terms wrong.

Yeah...I know what you're thinking. Unable to change
reality David is now trying to change the meaning of
words that describe reality. My Webster's Ninth New
Collegiate is weeping.

David gets personal in his post, urging me to take
economics courses and to study demographics. This
is intended to convince you, the reader, that my
opinions lack credibility because of a presumed gap
in my education. I'm sorry to disappoint David, but
my college education included many courses in economics
and demography, especially urban demography. Both topics
continue to interest me, especially the latter.

Now back to "social." I wouldn't belabor the point. The
reader is free to see what "social" means. I suggest the
very useful site www.dictionary.com. But I can't resist
challenging David's erroneous read on the meaning of
"social" by including this example of the word given on
the above-mentioned Web site: "Ants are social insects."
By David's definition, ants have banks, ATM machines,
stock brokers, and tax lawyers.

 

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> >
> > Yes...I have checked the Hispanic population of Passaic
> > County. I have also checked the non-Hispanic population
> > of Passaic County. And if that's not enough, I have
> > checked the TV allocations for Passaic County. Of that
> > last item, there is only one...Channel 41.
>
> But it is in the metro, and is expected to serve the
> coverage area just as much as the COL. Otherwise, it would
> be an LPTV station.
> >
> > Some 75 percent of Passaic County is listed as
> non-Hispanic
> > white and African-American.
>
> Your figures are off. Passaic has become more Hispanic since
> the 2000 Census, when it was 30% Hispanic, and is now around
> 35% Hispanic.
>
> > Considering there is just
> > one...one...television
> > station in Passaic County don't you think that it would
> more
> >
> > appropriately serve the majority of citizens..Hispanic and
>
> > non-Hispanic?
>
> No. There are a dozenor so off air signals I can get on
> rabbit ears in Passaic. I have choices.
>
> > Channel 41 operates as a New York City
> > station...not a Passaic County station.
>
> It operates as a New York NE NJ metro station, serving the
> needs of its coverage area, which is about 25% Hispanic.
>
> > Don't you think
> > that ALL the citizens of Passaic County would be better
> > served by a station everyone could understand and
> > appreciate?
>
> How about the Hispanics who do not view English TV?
> >
> > It is wrong to characterize a person by the language
> > they speak. Most Hispanic people in this part of the
> > country speak English as well as Spanish.
>
> No, they don't. Over 55% are Spanish dominant, and about 70%
> have Spanish as their birth tongue, indicating that they
> will perfer to view TV in Spanish, buth due to language and
> culture. I don't listen to English radio, yet I speak
> English OK.
>
> > Like immigrants
> > in the past, the children will assimilate into the
> > general population and share its concerns and interests.
>
> But, culturally, they will be Hispanic and need media that
> speaks to their interests, like Spanglish WCAA.
>
> > As they do they will be less and less interested in
> > what is going on in the old country and more concerned
> > about the schools and property taxes in their own
> > cities and towns.
>
> Spanish media is about more than the old country. It is
> about Hispnic itnerests, culture, musical taste, fookd,
> lifestyle, etc. No general market station can address this
> for first and second generation Hispanics in its entirity.
> >
> > In years past there were broadcast outlets that
> > catered to immigrants. WEVD, at one time, was "The
> > Station That Speaks Your Language." There's not much
> > Yiddish on the air in New York these days. Perhaps
> > none. I don't know of any stations broadcasting in
> > Italian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, German, etc. There
> > is some Korean, Chinese, etc. on the air, but not
> > much and not mainstream. Many children of immigrants
> > from East Asia no longer speak, or want to speak, the
> > language of their parents.
>
> But this happens in the third generation. Second generation
> is bilingual, but culturally tied to the family culture. It
> has always happened that way.
> >
> > There is no reason to deny the vast majority of
> > citizens in Passaic County the local television
> > services they should, but don't, get from Channel 41.
>
> There is nearly nowhere on the planet where a station can do
> local programming for one county. TV costs too much. All
> you would get is fourth run syndicated stuff that is all
> over cable, anyway.
> >
> > Plumbing the depths, David writes,
> >
> > "By this last statement, it would seem that you want
> > one ethnicity served, while another is ignored. Not
> > nice, sir."
> >
> > You're right...I want the American ethnicity served.
>
> There is no "American ethnicity" America is a soup of many
> ethnicities, and each has the right to enjoy its own
> heritage in America.
>
> > Americans of every color, shape, size, race, religion,
> > gender, political belief, and...yes...creed. What
> > problem do you have with that David? It's not nice
> > to be anti-American. I hope you're not.
>
> This makes no sense. Look up "ethnicity" in the dictionary.
> You so often seem to make your point by redifining at your
> convenience words and terms that I wonder whether you know
> what much of what you say really means.
> >
> > And because this is a radio forum, everything
> > above applies to radio too.
>
> So?
> >
> > Now in my previous post I asked you for real
> > hard statistics on commuting patterns in the
> > region. As I suspected, you didn't.
>
> They are in the Census CDs. I am not going to research for
> you. Integration of an area is determined by much more than
> commutes. As I have said. Over and over.
>
> > You did write,
> > "Those that commute work in one place and live in
> > another." I'll agree with that profound statement.
> > Then you write, "Those that do not commute are in
> > the area and work in it to provide goods and services
> > to the residents who do commute." Do I gather then
> > that people who commute do not provide goods and
> > services.
>
> The commuters engage in some activity in another part of the
> metro. However, local goods and services have to be
> available where those folks lives. Part of an integrated
> economy or metro economy supports the other part, as in the
> OMB definition of an MSA.
>
> > If a person commutes from Scotch Plains
> > to Elizabeth, is that person really commuting?
> > They are merely moving from one part of Union
> > County to another.
>
> Unless they work at home, they are commuting. Yôu are
> redefining words again to fit your crooked agenda.
>
> > How about the person who
> > doesn't commute but works at home developing
> > business software?
>
> If you get on or in a vehicle to go to work somewhere else,
> you commute. That is the definition.
>
> > And what if that person who
> > travels to Elizabeth provides goods and services to
> > other commuters?
>
> They commute. That is the definition.
> >
> > David also writes, "This is, however, only one of
> > the dozens of economic factors used to determine
> > a metro." I wouldn't ask you for those dozens of
> > factors but could you supply us with, say, 14 or 15?
>
> See the OMB. It includes rail hubs, warehousing, retail
> chains, fast food franchise owners, newspaper circulation,
> and dozens and dozens and dozens of other factors.
> >
>

David blasts away. But either his powder is wet or he's
loading blanks. I wouldn't take this thread farther. The
reader can judge my comments and has access to the resources.
Let me just address a couple of points.

David wrote:

"There is no "American ethnicity" America is a soup of many
ethnicities, and each has the right to enjoy its own
heritage in America."

Y'know David, I'm an American. And as Lee Greenwood would
agree, I'm proud to be one. I am the product of a culture
that is truly home-grown. I believe in the ideals of the
people who founded this country. They too recognized that
Americans were no longer displaced Englishmen and women.
There is an American ethos that is distinct from all others.

One way to see yourself is through the eyes of others. And
there are no better people to define you than your enemies.
Because they see things in black and white they don't see
minor and inconsequential distinctions. And to our enemy,
an American is just that..an American. The American's color,
race, religion, speech pattern, political affiliation, or
taste in music doesn't matter.

There is an American ethnicity just as for those in Italy
there is an Italian ethnicity. I share that distinction
with my family, my friends, and my neighbors. When someone
asks where my family is from, I say "Newark." And I am
very proud of that too.

In regard to television service in Passaic County, Savid
says, "There are a dozenor so off air signals I can get on
rabbit ears in Passaic. I have choices." But which one of
those stations will keep you informed about what has happened
this day in Passaic County? (David will probably tell us that
nothing important happens in Passaic County.)

David chides me again with "I wonder whether you know
what much of what you say really means." Wonder no more,
David. I do!! I knew you'd be pleased. Then David says
"This makes no sense. Look up "ethnicity" in the dictionary.
I did!!! Here's the definition:

ethnicity

n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties.

(David will next tell us that there is no American culture. After
hearing some current music I might have to agree. )


Finally, David states:

"You so often seem to make your point by redifining at your
convenience words and terms that I wonder whether you know
what much of what you say really means."

Guess what!! I are a writer too!!

(I know. It's kinda cheap. But I couldn't resist. We all
have our limits. )

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> >
>
> Sorry Charley..I mean David. That's not what history shows.
>
> Section 307b of the Communications Act of 1934 makes it
> clear that allocation of broadcast services must be done
> on a state-by-state basis. There is no mention of "metro
> areas."
>
> Specifically, the Act mandated that the FCC "shall make a
> fair and equitable allocation of licenses, frequencies,
> time for operation, and station power to each of the
> States and the District of Columbia, within each zone,
> according to population."

Center of Population. I'll repeat it... center of population. In the early 50's, the revision of the table of allocations during the TV freeze was well documented in publications such as Broadcasting Magazine (unlike the events leading to the Communications Acyt, when there was no trade publication of record). I have referred to them and to the Yearbook issues for 1950 through 1954, and it is obvious that the FCC used the "Center of Population" criteria.

TV stations were allocated, as were FMs in 1946 after tha band moved, based on where the most people lived. In the cases of urban areas, the TV allocations were placed almost exclusively in the core or center city of a large population region because the WANTED to allow these stations to survive. With the high costs of running a TV station, even the governmental FCC realized that there was no way for a TV staiton in 1953 to make money on the outskirts of a major town or in the hinterlands.

In fact, in the 50's, the FCC realized that TV could not survive locally in fringe-of-metro locations or very rural ones, so they 1) put the metro area allocations in the central cities and, 2) allowed satellite operastion for rural areas. In many sparesly opulated areas, allocations could be filed for by stations in larger places and operated nearly 100% as a satellite. This is becasue there was no way to proved local service at the time the table was revised and TV licencing again allowed.

There was no effort to give each state an equal or equitative number of channels, as that particular part of the Communications Act was interpreted to have been written to reflect the natures of AM coverage, especailly clear channels and regional channels, and not VHF which was not even licencable when the Act was written.

So, whether you like it or not, New York City was considered the center of population of the region around it, and the allocations were given to either NYC or cities that are contiguous with it, like Newark.
>
> As I explained previously, New York City alone was
> allocated six VHF TV channels, the entire state of
> New Jersey just one. The tiny state of Delaware
> received one allocation too. Clearly, the TV allocations
> did not satisfy the requirements set forth in the
> enabling act for the FCC.

Center of population, center of poppulation. The Act was written based on the propagation of AM signals at night, when most radio listening happened in 1934. It had nothing to do with VHF, which is basically line of sight. The FCC was bright enough to see this, and acted in accordance with the laws of physics and the distribution of population.
>
> David recalls the days of ascertainment in which stations
> "had an obligation expressed at the time to serve the
> coverage area." Sad, but those stations never did serve
> the coverage area...and don't to this day. The same goes
> for AM and FM radio stations in New York City.

The idea of ascertainment was to determine the significant issues of the coverage area, not of the City of Licnese, and provide a percentaage of programming (which could even be the criteria for PSA selection) that served that area. I never did a license renewal or application where the specific needs of ONLY the city of license were the only things ascertained or addressed in the proposed programming. Coverage area, coverage area, coverage area.

Radio and TV waves do not stop at city or county limits. Everyone but you seems to realize this.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: There is no one American culture.

>
> "There is no "American ethnicity" America is a soup of many
> ethnicities, and each has the right to enjoy its own
> heritage in America."
>
> Y'know David, I'm an American. And as Lee Greenwood would
> agree, I'm proud to be one. I am the product of a culture
> that is truly home-grown. I believe in the ideals of the
> people who founded this country. They too recognized that
> Americans were no longer displaced Englishmen and women.
> There is an American ethos that is distinct from all others.

This is an ingenuous statement. There is no "Ämerican Culture" but an amalgamation of cultures. The "culture" of rural whites in Alabama is totally different from that of a rural American in the ara around Calais, Maine. Or an urban black in LA vs. a Black in Minneapolis. Or the residents of Cleveland's Little Italy and San Francisco's Chinatown area. Farmers in Nebraska are not of the same culture as white Hispanic heritage persons in Miami. Etc.

America (a mis-nomer, as "America" is really everything from Patagonia to Hudson Bay) is a variety of cultures or subcultures that all manage to coexist most of the time. But it is not monolithic and it is not 100% compatible all the time... or we would not have special interest groups, race riots, a Civil War, etc.
>
>
> One way to see yourself is through the eyes of others. And
> there are no better people to define you than your enemies.
> Because they see things in black and white they don't see
> minor and inconsequential distinctions. And to our enemy,
> an American is just that..an American. The American's color,
>
> race, religion, speech pattern, political affiliation, or
> taste in music doesn't matter.

Obviously you have never lived outside the US or have not taken advantage of local contact if you have. People outside the US, pretty uniformly, hate the US government. Most, except for the most radical, do not hate Americans.

And those that are educated understand that America is a very broad collection of peoples. Of course, not everyone knows that, if their education is lacking. I'll bet you can not tell me, off the top of your head, the ethnicity of Argentina without looking it up. Well, most foreigners don't know the ethnicity of America, either. But the general hatred is of our government... part due to the very strength of America and part due to the perception of America as an imperialist power.

>
> There is an American ethnicity just as for those in Italy
> there is an Italian ethnicity. I share that distinction
> with my family, my friends, and my neighbors. When someone
> asks where my family is from, I say "Newark." And I am
> very proud of that too.

You are mixing geography (Newark) with ethnicity. In fact, ethnic Italians come in a variety of flavors, just as Hispanics... even Puerto Ricans... do.
>
> In regard to television service in Passaic County, Savid
> says, "There are a dozenor so off air signals I can get on
> rabbit ears in Passaic. I have choices." But which one of
> those stations will keep you informed about what has
> happened
> this day in Passaic County? (David will probably tell us
> that
> nothing important happens in Passaic County.)

TV is to expensive to dedicate a scarce commodity to one single zone. There is no way a TV station in Passaic could serve only Passaic. First, most people in the county would defect to the metro coverage programming and then, there would not be enough left only in Passaic to support a TV station.

Newspapers and websites are the place for highly localized coverage. In both, we can skip the stuff that does not interest us. On tv and radio, we can not skip the boring crap, so we change channel or station. There is only a small interest in detail level local news of individual components of a metro.
>
> David chides me again with "I wonder whether you know
> what much of what you say really means." Wonder no more,
> David. I do!! I knew you'd be pleased. Then David says
> "This makes no sense. Look up "ethnicity" in the dictionary.
>
> I did!!! Here's the definition:
>
> ethnicity
>
> n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial
> or cultural ties.
>
> (David will next tell us that there is no American culture.
> After
> hearing some current music I might have to agree. )

There is no ONE American culture. There are hundreds of American cultures. Goths, Cajuns, rural Blacks, Hispanics in NY, Hispanics in LA, Hispanics in Miami, rural plains whites (seen fargo?), etc., etc., and they are significantly different... there is no overall culture.

 

[Harold]

Re: There is no one American culture.

> >
> > "There is no "American ethnicity" America is a soup of
> many
> > ethnicities, and each has the right to enjoy its own
> > heritage in America."
> >
> > Y'know David, I'm an American. And as Lee Greenwood would
> > agree, I'm proud to be one. I am the product of a culture
> > that is truly home-grown. I believe in the ideals of the
> > people who founded this country. They too recognized that
> > Americans were no longer displaced Englishmen and women.
> > There is an American ethos that is distinct from all
> others.
>
> This is an ingenuous statement. There is no "Ämerican
> Culture" but an amalgamation of cultures. The "culture" of
> rural whites in Alabama is totally different from that of a
> rural American in the ara around Calais, Maine. Or an urban
> black in LA vs. a Black in Minneapolis. Or the residents of
> Cleveland's Little Italy and San Francisco's Chinatown area.
> Farmers in Nebraska are not of the same culture as white
> Hispanic heritage persons in Miami. Etc.
>
> America (a mis-nomer, as "America" is really everything from
> Patagonia to Hudson Bay) is a variety of cultures or
> subcultures that all manage to coexist most of the time. But
> it is not monolithic and it is not 100% compatible all the
> time... or we would not have special interest groups, race
> riots, a Civil War, etc.
> >
> >
> > One way to see yourself is through the eyes of others. And
>
> > there are no better people to define you than your
> enemies.
> > Because they see things in black and white they don't see
> > minor and inconsequential distinctions. And to our enemy,
> > an American is just that..an American. The American's
> color,
> >
> > race, religion, speech pattern, political affiliation, or
> > taste in music doesn't matter.
>
> Obviously you have never lived outside the US or have not
> taken advantage of local contact if you have. People outside
> the US, pretty uniformly, hate the US government. Most,
> except for the most radical, do not hate Americans.
>
> And those that are educated understand that America is a
> very broad collection of peoples. Of course, not everyone
> knows that, if their education is lacking. I'll bet you can
> not tell me, off the top of your head, the ethnicity of
> Argentina without looking it up. Well, most foreigners don't
> know the ethnicity of America, either. But the general
> hatred is of our government... part due to the very strength
> of America and part due to the perception of America as an
> imperialist power.
>
> >
> > There is an American ethnicity just as for those in Italy
> > there is an Italian ethnicity. I share that distinction
> > with my family, my friends, and my neighbors. When someone
>
> > asks where my family is from, I say "Newark." And I am
> > very proud of that too.
>
> You are mixing geography (Newark) with ethnicity. In fact,
> ethnic Italians come in a variety of flavors, just as
> Hispanics... even Puerto Ricans... do.
> >
> > In regard to television service in Passaic County, Savid
> > says, "There are a dozenor so off air signals I can get on
>
> > rabbit ears in Passaic. I have choices." But which one of
> > those stations will keep you informed about what has
> > happened
> > this day in Passaic County? (David will probably tell us
> > that
> > nothing important happens in Passaic County.)
>
> TV is to expensive to dedicate a scarce commodity to one
> single zone. There is no way a TV station in Passaic could
> serve only Passaic. First, most people in the county would
> defect to the metro coverage programming and then, there
> would not be enough left only in Passaic to support a TV
> station.
>
> Newspapers and websites are the place for highly localized
> coverage. In both, we can skip the stuff that does not
> interest us. On tv and radio, we can not skip the boring
> crap, so we change channel or station. There is only a small
> interest in detail level local news of individual components
> of a metro.
> >
> > David chides me again with "I wonder whether you know
> > what much of what you say really means." Wonder no more,
> > David. I do!! I knew you'd be pleased. Then David says
> > "This makes no sense. Look up "ethnicity" in the
> dictionary.
> >
> > I did!!! Here's the definition:
> >
> > ethnicity
> >
> > n : an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial
>
> > or cultural ties.
> >
> > (David will next tell us that there is no American
> culture.
> > After
> > hearing some current music I might have to agree. )
>
> There is no ONE American culture. There are hundreds of
> American cultures. Goths, Cajuns, rural Blacks, Hispanics in
> NY, Hispanics in LA, Hispanics in Miami, rural plains whites
> (seen fargo?), etc., etc., and they are significantly
> different... there is no overall culture.
>


This discussion is going very far afield of the purpose
and intent of the site and this particular forum. So I
don't want to go on ad naseum. It should be obvious to
those who have been reading these posts that David has
a viewpoint that is very different than most Americans
and, I suspect, of most readers of this forum. He sees
America as a collection of widely different people who
share in common only the location in which they sleep
at night. I invite the readers to type "American Culture"
into any search engine and see the number and quality of
the responses. Others are out there who can far better
explain what American culture is than can I.

Again, Lee Greenwood didn't sing "I'm proud to be a
Hispanic in Los Angeles." He got it. I think most
Americans who view our country with minds free of
factionalism and eyes not blinded by prejudice do.
There indeed is an American culture that surmounts
the cultural legacies of immigrants and binds their
children together in one community. Listen to those
English-language stations David. You'll hear the
American culture coming through in many different
forms.

I will mostly leave aside David's comments about how
hated our government is around the world. This bespeaks
the standard anti-Bush nonsense and certainly doesn't have
a place on a radio forum. Unlike in much of the world,
Americans elect our government and it rules with the
permission of the governed. If anyone hates our government,
they hate us. And I couldn't care less about the people
who hate us. The next time Germany invades France the
French can fight the Germans all by themselves. Our
domestic brie and cabernet are just fine. We don't need
theirs anyway.

I'll leave you with this from David:

"In fact, ethnic Italians come in a variety of flavors."
Really? Can I get one in Garlic & Mushroom?

 

[Harold]

Re: WAWZ, a New Jersey station

> > >
> >
> > Sorry Charley..I mean David. That's not what history
> shows.
> >
> > Section 307b of the Communications Act of 1934 makes it
> > clear that allocation of broadcast services must be done
> > on a state-by-state basis. There is no mention of "metro
> > areas."
> >
> > Specifically, the Act mandated that the FCC "shall make a
>
> > fair and equitable allocation of licenses, frequencies,
> > time for operation, and station power to each of the
> > States and the District of Columbia, within each zone,
> > according to population."
>
> Center of Population. I'll repeat it... center of
> population. In the early 50's, the revision of the table of
> allocations during the TV freeze was well documented in
> publications such as Broadcasting Magazine (unlike the
> events leading to the Communications Acyt, when there was no
> trade publication of record). I have referred to them and to
> the Yearbook issues for 1950 through 1954, and it is obvious
> that the FCC used the "Center of Population" criteria.
>
> TV stations were allocated, as were FMs in 1946 after tha
> band moved, based on where the most people lived. In the
> cases of urban areas, the TV allocations were placed almost
> exclusively in the core or center city of a large population
> region because the WANTED to allow these stations to
> survive. With the high costs of running a TV station, even
> the governmental FCC realized that there was no way for a TV
> staiton in 1953 to make money on the outskirts of a major
> town or in the hinterlands.
>
> In fact, in the 50's, the FCC realized that TV could not
> survive locally in fringe-of-metro locations or very rural
> ones, so they 1) put the metro area allocations in the
> central cities and, 2) allowed satellite operastion for
> rural areas. In many sparesly opulated areas, allocations
> could be filed for by stations in larger places and operated
> nearly 100% as a satellite. This is becasue there was no way
> to proved local service at the time the table was revised
> and TV licencing again allowed.
>
> There was no effort to give each state an equal or
> equitative number of channels, as that particular part of
> the Communications Act was interpreted to have been written
> to reflect the natures of AM coverage, especailly clear
> channels and regional channels, and not VHF which was not
> even licencable when the Act was written.
>
> So, whether you like it or not, New York City was considered
> the center of population of the region around it, and the
> allocations were given to either NYC or cities that are
> contiguous with it, like Newark.
> >
> > As I explained previously, New York City alone was
> > allocated six VHF TV channels, the entire state of
> > New Jersey just one. The tiny state of Delaware
> > received one allocation too. Clearly, the TV allocations
> > did not satisfy the requirements set forth in the
> > enabling act for the FCC.
>
> Center of population, center of poppulation. The Act was
> written based on the propagation of AM signals at night,
> when most radio listening happened in 1934. It had nothing
> to do with VHF, which is basically line of sight. The FCC
> was bright enough to see this, and acted in accordance with
> the laws of physics and the distribution of population.
> >
> > David recalls the days of ascertainment in which stations
> > "had an obligation expressed at the time to serve the
> > coverage area." Sad, but those stations never did serve
> > the coverage area...and don't to this day. The same goes
> > for AM and FM radio stations in New York City.
>
> The idea of ascertainment was to determine the significant
> issues of the coverage area, not of the City of Licnese, and
> provide a percentaage of programming (which could even be
> the criteria for PSA selection) that served that area. I
> never did a license renewal or application where the
> specific needs of ONLY the city of license were the only
> things ascertained or addressed in the proposed programming.
> Coverage area, coverage area, coverage area.
>
> Radio and TV waves do not stop at city or county limits.
> Everyone but you seems to realize this.
> >
>

David reminds me of that guy in the Monty Python movie
who battles the killer rabbit. Long after his arms and
legs are cut off he still finds the strength to continue
the battle, forecasting the demise of his opponent.
It's tenacity carried to the extreme.

New Jersey was screwed by broadcast media and its FCC
lapdog in the 1940s when the allocations were made. Only
David, ever eager to defend the media interests, can't
admit this. New Jersey is, and was, a major U.S. state
with millions of citizens. It is a diverse state to boot
with many regional economies and social patterns. It is
not, as David suggests, on the outskirts of anything. In
fact, it is the most highly urbanized state in the country.

During the 1980s even the FCC recognized the paupacity of
television broadcast service in northern New Jersey. They
dropped two UHF stations into the area for that specific
reason. However, media interests in New York made sure
that those stations would not become competitors. And they
haven't. Lobbying money well-spent I suppose. Even the
U.S. Justice Department has recognized the problem and
years ago developed a special paper on the subject.

All this Monday-morning quarterbacking about why the
FCC gave New Jersey just one VHF assignment doesn't
reveal the real reasons why we were shortchanged. Money,
even in the 1940s, ruled the day and the New York
broadcasters got what they wanted...Almost exclusive
control of the airwaves over northern and central New
Jersey. The distribution of broadcast services was neither
fair nor equitable. Unless, of course, you own a New York
television or radio station.

By the way, do you notice how David says that ascertainment
was intended to reveal issues of concern to the "coverage
area" not the community of license? Has anyone seen any
change in the coverage of northern New Jersey by the New
York radio and TV stations as a result of ascertainment?
I haven't. I know you haven't either.

To bring the issue around on point, perhaps David can tell
us whether he thinks WAWZ is a New York or New Jersey radio
station. What say you David?

 

[davideduardo]

Re: There is no one American culture.

>
>
> This discussion is going very far afield of the purpose
> and intent of the site and this particular forum. So I
> don't want to go on ad naseum. It should be obvious to
> those who have been reading these posts that David has
> a viewpoint that is very different than most Americans
> and, I suspect, of most readers of this forum. He sees
> America as a collection of widely different people who
> share in common only the location in which they sleep
> at night.

That is not what I said. I said that America is an amalgamation of cultures, with wide regional and ethnic and racial extremes, but which somehow gfet along most of the time.

> I invite the readers to type "American Culture"
> into any search engine and see the number and quality of
> the responses. Others are out there who can far better
> explain what American culture is than can I.

Yeah. It is a combination of cultures from all over the world. Just what I said. American culture is so distinct because it has so many facets, and few other countries have this characteristic. In fact, we have no official language and portions of our population represent nearly every natiuon, continent, ethinicity and race every conceived, described or imagined.
>
> Again, Lee Greenwood didn't sing "I'm proud to be a
> Hispanic in Los Angeles." He got it. I think most
> Americans who view our country with minds free of
> factionalism and eyes not blinded by prejudice do.
> There indeed is an American culture that surmounts
> the cultural legacies of immigrants and binds their
> children together in one community. Listen to those
> English-language stations David. You'll hear the
> American culture coming through in many different
> forms.

I don't like Enlglish music, so I do not listen to those stations. About 40 or 50 million other Americans don't, either.

I hope you are not saying that Limbaugh (or Frankel) speak for all America equally?

Go back a century or so and read Alexis de Tocqueville on the spirit of America being its individualism and differences, not its homogenization. In fact, he claimed in this difinitive précis of the Ameircan character, that democracy worked here because of the diversity.
>
> I will mostly leave aside David's comments about how
> hated our government is around the world. This bespeaks
> the standard anti-Bush nonsense and certainly doesn't have
> a place on a radio forum. Unlike in much of the world,
> Americans elect our government and it rules with the
> permission of the governed. If anyone hates our government,
> they hate us.

Wrong. I have had a dreadful Ford and a worse GM car. I do not hate GM or Ford employees, but hate Ford and GM as companies that stole my money in exchange for a shoddy product.

Similarly, America is pretty widely if not universally hated around the world. Be it for envy, perceived wrongs or actual ones, our nation is despised by the bulk of the world's population. Survey after survey, journalist after journalist, speech after speech proves this. Yet that does not mean that any beyond derange fanatics despise Americans... just as I know to blame the General Motors Corporation, not the GM employee rank and file for my lemon, most people with a ounce of sense know that Americans themselves are not to blame for the doings of American military and State Department leaders over the last 150 years or so.

> And I couldn't care less about the people
> who hate us. The next time Germany invades France the
> French can fight the Germans all by themselves. Our
> domestic brie and cabernet are just fine. We don't need
> theirs anyway.

Narrow viewpoint excused. We live on the same planet. We did not go in to save the French, but to stop Hitler.
>
> I'll leave you with this from David:
>
> "In fact, ethnic Italians come in a variety of flavors."
> Really? Can I get one in Garlic & Mushroom?
>

No, but you can get a Tuscan, a Sicilian, a Roman and many other kinds. In fact, as you should know, within Italy (which was a ragged collection of principoalities until very recently) there are enormous rivalries that go back to the times the states that make up Italy frequently were in arms against each other.

A mole has a better world view than you are showing.