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WBBF Returns!
- Thread starter fybush
- Start date
J
Joseph_Gallant
Guest
And it's in Buffalo?!?!?!?
I was beginning to think that an AM station in or near Rochester had picked-up those calls, and was going to switch to oldies (likely running the ABC "True Oldies Channel" format, perhaps with local drive-time shows).
I was beginning to think that an AM station in or near Rochester had picked-up those calls, and was going to switch to oldies (likely running the ABC "True Oldies Channel" format, perhaps with local drive-time shows).
> (as the new calls on WMNY 1120. What were you thinking?)
>
> Discuss...
>
I was thinking how "heads-up" it was to latch onto the calls and that although they were no longer in Rochester, they were still in Western New York and fit a Buffalo station quite nicely.
Also though of the many talented pros had spoken, shouted, read and used those call letters in promos, newscasts and intros over their long run on AM and FM stations in Rochester.
I heard guys like Jack Palvino, Dave Mance, Larry White, Dean Clark, Ed Little and so many others say those letters over the years and I respectfully gave them a thought as I "cranked-out" a few legal IDs and bumpers for AM 1120, WBBF Buffalo, a Citadel Broadcasting Station.
They are, without a doubt, cool call letters.
>
> Discuss...
>
I was thinking how "heads-up" it was to latch onto the calls and that although they were no longer in Rochester, they were still in Western New York and fit a Buffalo station quite nicely.
Also though of the many talented pros had spoken, shouted, read and used those call letters in promos, newscasts and intros over their long run on AM and FM stations in Rochester.
I heard guys like Jack Palvino, Dave Mance, Larry White, Dean Clark, Ed Little and so many others say those letters over the years and I respectfully gave them a thought as I "cranked-out" a few legal IDs and bumpers for AM 1120, WBBF Buffalo, a Citadel Broadcasting Station.
They are, without a doubt, cool call letters.
P
PassDutch
Guest
> And it's in Buffalo?!?!?!?
>
> I was beginning to think that an AM station in or near
> Rochester had picked-up those calls, and was going to switch
> to oldies (likely running the ABC "True Oldies Channel"
> format, perhaps with local drive-time shows).
If oldies were to return to Rochester Radio, it'll probably be on 95.1, as the successor to 95.1 The Fox. Rochester's got 3 classic rockers (Buzz, CMF, Fox).
>
> I was beginning to think that an AM station in or near
> Rochester had picked-up those calls, and was going to switch
> to oldies (likely running the ABC "True Oldies Channel"
> format, perhaps with local drive-time shows).
If oldies were to return to Rochester Radio, it'll probably be on 95.1, as the successor to 95.1 The Fox. Rochester's got 3 classic rockers (Buzz, CMF, Fox).
B
Bob1370
Guest
> If oldies were to return to Rochester Radio, it'll probably
> be on 95.1, as the successor to 95.1 The Fox. Rochester's
> got 3 classic rockers (Buzz, CMF, Fox).
>
It'll be interesting to see if Entercom's Jack clone, "Fickle" 93.3, does anything more than BBF did. I've tried it, and doubt it will. (I think it'll get an initial sampling spike but outside of morning drive it'll draw poor TSL and eventually declining share. The music mix is too awkward for fans of any particular musical era or style to stay long with---and outside of morning drive, there's no perosnality or information to add value or tie things together when they sound like they're falling apart.
The Jack format or its clones can really work well only if it's got strong personalities in every daypart...that was what made classic top 40 radio of the 1958-84 era work, popular and likable personalities keeping things moving even when the hits of the day were a mix of rock, soul, pop, disco and country that could otherwise end up colliding with each other when put together. Personality presentation makes that kind of variety work. Running it like a juke box or iPod on shuffle, personality-free, the way these Jack/Bob/Fickle stations are doing, makes it sound like a train wreck--or like someone with a bipolar disorder went off his meds and then programmed the computer.
Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz. I'm about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music tastes are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not alone.
> be on 95.1, as the successor to 95.1 The Fox. Rochester's
> got 3 classic rockers (Buzz, CMF, Fox).
>
It'll be interesting to see if Entercom's Jack clone, "Fickle" 93.3, does anything more than BBF did. I've tried it, and doubt it will. (I think it'll get an initial sampling spike but outside of morning drive it'll draw poor TSL and eventually declining share. The music mix is too awkward for fans of any particular musical era or style to stay long with---and outside of morning drive, there's no perosnality or information to add value or tie things together when they sound like they're falling apart.
The Jack format or its clones can really work well only if it's got strong personalities in every daypart...that was what made classic top 40 radio of the 1958-84 era work, popular and likable personalities keeping things moving even when the hits of the day were a mix of rock, soul, pop, disco and country that could otherwise end up colliding with each other when put together. Personality presentation makes that kind of variety work. Running it like a juke box or iPod on shuffle, personality-free, the way these Jack/Bob/Fickle stations are doing, makes it sound like a train wreck--or like someone with a bipolar disorder went off his meds and then programmed the computer.
Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz. I'm about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music tastes are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not alone.
>
> Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't
> listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz. I'm
> about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music tastes
> are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not
> alone.
>
You can review an Edison Research Jack analysis which confirms some of your observations and offers other insight regarding this format, which appears to be spreading like kudzu.
> Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't
> listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz. I'm
> about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music tastes
> are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not
> alone.
>
You can review an Edison Research Jack analysis which confirms some of your observations and offers other insight regarding this format, which appears to be spreading like kudzu.
D
Doyle
Guest
Bob,
You said:
>
> Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't
> listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz. I'm
> about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music tastes
> are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not
> alone.
1. Fickle is targeting women (35-54). Thus artist's like Barry Manilow (we play 14 different manilow songs-13 different biily joel songs), Madonna, Hootie and The Blow Fish and the Bee Gees. We're playing disco for god's sake. So you must not have listened long if you think CMF and The Buzz listeners are the target. Why would I want to steal Buzz listeners? (see that's another one of my stations).
2. The biggest mistake any Marketer can make is to assume, as you do, that your tastes are "typical" (that's a quote-look up). As an example, do you think WBEE is going to fail cause you and I don't like country music? Silly idea to think that way, cause there is no "typical" man 25-54.
Bob, I don't mind criticism, but please listen to the station, and understand who we are targeting (as I said before, we ain't Jack) before you pronounce me dead. By the way, care to wager what gets better ratings in your daypart...fickle or your show. Any demo except 55+. (old folks love your show)
You "Live and local" versus what I'm doing that you say is going to fail. How about lower ratings buys lunch at Bru or Triphammer. We can enlist Scott Fybush as judge to ensure that I don't lie (all Radio GM's lie, we're all lying suits). I'll even buy Scott lunch as the judge. (or am I trying to influence him?)
Many people on this board lament the "end" of radio. Radio is changing. I believe in personalities, but not on every station, at every time, all doing "bits." Fickle has it's place, and it will get better ratings than WBBF ever got at 93.3, just as The Buzz now gets better ratings than WKLX/WBBF 98.9 ever got (at least going back 12 years). The Bee and Buzz morning shows are #2 and #3 in AM Drive in Adults 25-54 (behind Bro Wease). All 3 personality stations, all different and all successful. But every station, every daypart has to serve a different need, and like the crazy "radio is dead guy" says, some people hate disc jockeys. He's right.
We have them in the morning on Fickle , and not at other times. That's our strategy.
Personally I love Fickle. But I named it, and Dave Symonds and I are picking the records so of course I like it. (ok Dave only pretends to care about my opinion on records, but I did get a Commodore's song added yesterday). Will it work? Only time will tell if we get some ratings.
So how about that bet?
PS. Outside of people on this board, and former employees of wbbf, no one knows or cares about the wbbf call letters leaving. They are too busy living their lives....
>
You said:
>
> Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't
> listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz. I'm
> about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music tastes
> are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not
> alone.
1. Fickle is targeting women (35-54). Thus artist's like Barry Manilow (we play 14 different manilow songs-13 different biily joel songs), Madonna, Hootie and The Blow Fish and the Bee Gees. We're playing disco for god's sake. So you must not have listened long if you think CMF and The Buzz listeners are the target. Why would I want to steal Buzz listeners? (see that's another one of my stations).
2. The biggest mistake any Marketer can make is to assume, as you do, that your tastes are "typical" (that's a quote-look up). As an example, do you think WBEE is going to fail cause you and I don't like country music? Silly idea to think that way, cause there is no "typical" man 25-54.
Bob, I don't mind criticism, but please listen to the station, and understand who we are targeting (as I said before, we ain't Jack) before you pronounce me dead. By the way, care to wager what gets better ratings in your daypart...fickle or your show. Any demo except 55+. (old folks love your show)
You "Live and local" versus what I'm doing that you say is going to fail. How about lower ratings buys lunch at Bru or Triphammer. We can enlist Scott Fybush as judge to ensure that I don't lie (all Radio GM's lie, we're all lying suits). I'll even buy Scott lunch as the judge. (or am I trying to influence him?)
Many people on this board lament the "end" of radio. Radio is changing. I believe in personalities, but not on every station, at every time, all doing "bits." Fickle has it's place, and it will get better ratings than WBBF ever got at 93.3, just as The Buzz now gets better ratings than WKLX/WBBF 98.9 ever got (at least going back 12 years). The Bee and Buzz morning shows are #2 and #3 in AM Drive in Adults 25-54 (behind Bro Wease). All 3 personality stations, all different and all successful. But every station, every daypart has to serve a different need, and like the crazy "radio is dead guy" says, some people hate disc jockeys. He's right.
We have them in the morning on Fickle , and not at other times. That's our strategy.
Personally I love Fickle. But I named it, and Dave Symonds and I are picking the records so of course I like it. (ok Dave only pretends to care about my opinion on records, but I did get a Commodore's song added yesterday). Will it work? Only time will tell if we get some ratings.
So how about that bet?
PS. Outside of people on this board, and former employees of wbbf, no one knows or cares about the wbbf call letters leaving. They are too busy living their lives....
>
B
Bob1370
Guest
> Bob,
> You said:
> > Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't
> > listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz.
> I'm
> > about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music
> tastes
> > are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not
> > alone.
>
>
> 1. Fickle is targeting women (35-54). Thus artist's like
> Barry Manilow (we play 14 different manilow songs-13
> different biily joel songs), Madonna, Hootie and The Blow
> Fish and the Bee Gees. We're playing disco for god's sake.
> So you must not have listened long if you think CMF and The
> Buzz listeners are the target. Why would I want to steal
> Buzz listeners? (see that's another one of my stations).
I know, but ironically, there may be just enough overlap that it doesn't do you much good. And it's the clash of different styles, without any personality to smooth it over and take the listener through it in the style of the great top 40 jocks of past and present, that makes it harder to listen to.
> 2. The biggest mistake any Marketer can make is to assume,
> as you do, that your tastes are "typical" (that's a
> quote-look up). As an example, do you think WBEE is going
> to fail cause you and I don't like country music? Silly
> idea to think that way, cause there is no "typical" man
> 25-54.
Actually I do rather like a lot of modern country, and like the way you present it on 92.5, so you've got me wrong on that count. I have eclectic tastes like many people do...but part of the genius of the best music formats (even the ones with big playlists and big libraries) is the way they stitch it all together.
> Bob, I don't mind criticism, but please listen to the
> station, and understand who we are targeting (as I said
> before, we ain't Jack) before you pronounce me dead. By
> the way, care to wager what gets better ratings in your
> daypart...fickle or your show. Any demo except 55+. (old
> folks love your show)
I have listened, and actually spent a long enough time with it to get a sense of what you're doing. My thoughts...Fickle's a station with a good morning show that's very hard to listen to after 10 AM without driving me to the buttons to change stations. Other music stations, including BEE and The Buzz, do not. I think my impulses simply confirm what the latest Arbitron/Edison Research reports on Jack and its formatic cousins came out with just last week...that a lot of people sample these stations but time spent listening is low, among the lowest of any music format. And I do OK with 35-54 target listeners as well, and won't complain, even though we're not competing for anyone's ratings crown and I wouldn't get into any kind of competitive comparison.
> You "Live and local" versus what I'm doing that you say is
> going to fail. How about lower ratings buys lunch at Bru or
> Triphammer. We can enlist Scott Fybush as judge to ensure
> that I don't lie (all Radio GM's lie, we're all lying
> suits). I'll even buy Scott lunch as the judge. (or am I
> trying to influence him?)
Like I said, we're apples and oranges, I'm not competing with you or taking the bet, only saying Fickle is one flavor of an emerging format genre that peaks early and runs the risk of burning fast if it doesn't add personality elements in all dayparts. (There is another interesting part of the Arbitron/Edison study, at least the way I read it. The Jack/Bob/Ben stations that do the best once they've been on the air more than six months seem to be the ones which phase in a full personality lineup, or which had one from the start even though the SOP on "Jack" and its cousins says you stay jockless through the first full book. People can check for themselves and reach their own conclusions since the study is available online.)
> Many people on this board lament the "end" of radio. Radio
> is changing. I believe in personalities, but not on every
> station, at every time, all doing "bits." Fickle has it's
> place, and it will get better ratings than WBBF ever got at
> 93.3, just as The Buzz now gets better ratings than
> WKLX/WBBF 98.9 ever got (at least going back 12 years). The
> Bee and Buzz morning shows are #2 and #3 in AM Drive in
> Adults 25-54 (behind Bro Wease). All 3 personality
> stations, all different and all successful. But every
> station, every daypart has to serve a different need, and
> like the crazy "radio is dead guy" says, some people hate
> disc jockeys. He's right.
Bee and Buzz do well because, well, they do a good job presenting their formats and do it pretty consistently through the day. I'm only saying you need to do that with Fickle too if you want it to succeed, and given the clashing musical styles it plays, you may need that personality element MORE on Fickle than you might in some other format, to get that TSL up to an acceptable level and slow down the tuneout after the initial novelty wears off.
> We have them in the morning on Fickle , and not at other
> times. That's our strategy.
I know that's the classic strategy for stations of that genre, but it's a strategy I admit I question.
> Personally I love Fickle. But I named it, and Dave Symonds
> and I are picking the records so of course I like it. (ok
> Dave only pretends to care about my opinion on records, but
> I did get a Commodore's song added yesterday). Will it
> work? Only time will tell if we get some ratings.
I'd love it IF it gave me more reasons to stay tuned for any length of time throughout the day, and sit through records that make me think of fingernails on the blackboard. You need to have a likable personality in place to make that happen for a lot of listeners. As it is now, Fickle's enjoyable to listen to when Ace and Marti are on, but tough going at other times. Just one man's opinion, FWIW.
> So how about that bet?
Again---music stations and talk stations are not just apples and oranges, they're meat vs. vegetables. We don't compete.
> PS. Outside of people on this board, and former employees
> of wbbf, no one knows or cares about the wbbf call letters
> leaving. They are too busy living their lives....
On that we agree. Call letters only have meaning when they evoke programming people can hear, and that they like and respond to.
I wish you well, don't get me wrong. I'm just expressing one listener's opinion about what that format needs (but doesn't yet have), not just here but everywhere, in order to make it. It's an opinion formed by a lot of years working in formats ranging from album rock to CHR to AC to news/talk; take it for whatever it may be worth.
> You said:
> > Unlistenable for any length of time...and people won't
> > listen long before turning back to Fox, CMF or The Buzz.
> I'm
> > about to take 93.3 off my presets in my car. My music
> tastes
> > are pretty typical for 25-54 men and I'd wager I'm not
> > alone.
>
>
> 1. Fickle is targeting women (35-54). Thus artist's like
> Barry Manilow (we play 14 different manilow songs-13
> different biily joel songs), Madonna, Hootie and The Blow
> Fish and the Bee Gees. We're playing disco for god's sake.
> So you must not have listened long if you think CMF and The
> Buzz listeners are the target. Why would I want to steal
> Buzz listeners? (see that's another one of my stations).
I know, but ironically, there may be just enough overlap that it doesn't do you much good. And it's the clash of different styles, without any personality to smooth it over and take the listener through it in the style of the great top 40 jocks of past and present, that makes it harder to listen to.
> 2. The biggest mistake any Marketer can make is to assume,
> as you do, that your tastes are "typical" (that's a
> quote-look up). As an example, do you think WBEE is going
> to fail cause you and I don't like country music? Silly
> idea to think that way, cause there is no "typical" man
> 25-54.
Actually I do rather like a lot of modern country, and like the way you present it on 92.5, so you've got me wrong on that count. I have eclectic tastes like many people do...but part of the genius of the best music formats (even the ones with big playlists and big libraries) is the way they stitch it all together.
> Bob, I don't mind criticism, but please listen to the
> station, and understand who we are targeting (as I said
> before, we ain't Jack) before you pronounce me dead. By
> the way, care to wager what gets better ratings in your
> daypart...fickle or your show. Any demo except 55+. (old
> folks love your show)
I have listened, and actually spent a long enough time with it to get a sense of what you're doing. My thoughts...Fickle's a station with a good morning show that's very hard to listen to after 10 AM without driving me to the buttons to change stations. Other music stations, including BEE and The Buzz, do not. I think my impulses simply confirm what the latest Arbitron/Edison Research reports on Jack and its formatic cousins came out with just last week...that a lot of people sample these stations but time spent listening is low, among the lowest of any music format. And I do OK with 35-54 target listeners as well, and won't complain, even though we're not competing for anyone's ratings crown and I wouldn't get into any kind of competitive comparison.
> You "Live and local" versus what I'm doing that you say is
> going to fail. How about lower ratings buys lunch at Bru or
> Triphammer. We can enlist Scott Fybush as judge to ensure
> that I don't lie (all Radio GM's lie, we're all lying
> suits). I'll even buy Scott lunch as the judge. (or am I
> trying to influence him?)
Like I said, we're apples and oranges, I'm not competing with you or taking the bet, only saying Fickle is one flavor of an emerging format genre that peaks early and runs the risk of burning fast if it doesn't add personality elements in all dayparts. (There is another interesting part of the Arbitron/Edison study, at least the way I read it. The Jack/Bob/Ben stations that do the best once they've been on the air more than six months seem to be the ones which phase in a full personality lineup, or which had one from the start even though the SOP on "Jack" and its cousins says you stay jockless through the first full book. People can check for themselves and reach their own conclusions since the study is available online.)
> Many people on this board lament the "end" of radio. Radio
> is changing. I believe in personalities, but not on every
> station, at every time, all doing "bits." Fickle has it's
> place, and it will get better ratings than WBBF ever got at
> 93.3, just as The Buzz now gets better ratings than
> WKLX/WBBF 98.9 ever got (at least going back 12 years). The
> Bee and Buzz morning shows are #2 and #3 in AM Drive in
> Adults 25-54 (behind Bro Wease). All 3 personality
> stations, all different and all successful. But every
> station, every daypart has to serve a different need, and
> like the crazy "radio is dead guy" says, some people hate
> disc jockeys. He's right.
Bee and Buzz do well because, well, they do a good job presenting their formats and do it pretty consistently through the day. I'm only saying you need to do that with Fickle too if you want it to succeed, and given the clashing musical styles it plays, you may need that personality element MORE on Fickle than you might in some other format, to get that TSL up to an acceptable level and slow down the tuneout after the initial novelty wears off.
> We have them in the morning on Fickle , and not at other
> times. That's our strategy.
I know that's the classic strategy for stations of that genre, but it's a strategy I admit I question.
> Personally I love Fickle. But I named it, and Dave Symonds
> and I are picking the records so of course I like it. (ok
> Dave only pretends to care about my opinion on records, but
> I did get a Commodore's song added yesterday). Will it
> work? Only time will tell if we get some ratings.
I'd love it IF it gave me more reasons to stay tuned for any length of time throughout the day, and sit through records that make me think of fingernails on the blackboard. You need to have a likable personality in place to make that happen for a lot of listeners. As it is now, Fickle's enjoyable to listen to when Ace and Marti are on, but tough going at other times. Just one man's opinion, FWIW.
> So how about that bet?
Again---music stations and talk stations are not just apples and oranges, they're meat vs. vegetables. We don't compete.
> PS. Outside of people on this board, and former employees
> of wbbf, no one knows or cares about the wbbf call letters
> leaving. They are too busy living their lives....
On that we agree. Call letters only have meaning when they evoke programming people can hear, and that they like and respond to.
I wish you well, don't get me wrong. I'm just expressing one listener's opinion about what that format needs (but doesn't yet have), not just here but everywhere, in order to make it. It's an opinion formed by a lot of years working in formats ranging from album rock to CHR to AC to news/talk; take it for whatever it may be worth.
M
mike704
Guest
Bob,
I don't know you but I must admit that I look forward to your posts here on the board, great reading.
To those who think call letters are not important then why do owners keep changing them all the time?
I agree that live personalites to sell the music and make it interesting is a plus for any station. I don't mean liner card readers, I'm talking about real people who know something about the music like they did in the progressive rock days and before that in top 40 when the DJ were inttroducing rock & roll to the masses. The stupid people taking (and giving) payola messed that up.
As for MY taste in music, it's far from typical!
Oh and congratulations on being one of the few in radio who doesn't have to worry about ratings (just pledge week right?). The ratings system is a joke and not a funny one at that. Even Clear Channel knows this and they are pushing ARB to find a better method.
Mike
I don't know you but I must admit that I look forward to your posts here on the board, great reading.
To those who think call letters are not important then why do owners keep changing them all the time?
I agree that live personalites to sell the music and make it interesting is a plus for any station. I don't mean liner card readers, I'm talking about real people who know something about the music like they did in the progressive rock days and before that in top 40 when the DJ were inttroducing rock & roll to the masses. The stupid people taking (and giving) payola messed that up.
As for MY taste in music, it's far from typical!
Oh and congratulations on being one of the few in radio who doesn't have to worry about ratings (just pledge week right?). The ratings system is a joke and not a funny one at that. Even Clear Channel knows this and they are pushing ARB to find a better method.
Mike
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