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WBEN a "Godsend"

Thanks! For your feedback, and for listening to my show. It is an honor to help promote local business. WBEN as a talk station already offers one of the biggest percentage of live broadcasting in the nation. If you compare to a station like WHAM, you see that. Some great programming just happens to be syndicated, like Rush. As far as weekends, we do have quite a bit of local programming. It is paid programming, but local. We also have news in the mornings. Again, thank you so much for listening, and perhaps you may want to send your comments and suggestions to our program director.
 
DavidEduardo said:


The MSA is nearly 1.2 million. Do the math. Only about one person in every 8 ever listens to WBEN. Stations like WYRK and WKSE reach more. WTSE ties that number.
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Yes, WBEN does not have the biggest cume in the city. WKSE does. But who cares. Any medium that reaches thousands of people is great. If I told an advertiser I can reach one in every 8 people in Buffalo, they would love to hear that. In fact, you now have me an idea to do that.
 
Buddy Shula said:
Thanks! For your feedback, and for listening to my show. It is an honor to help promote local business. WBEN as a talk station already offers one of the biggest percentage of live broadcasting in the nation. If you compare to a station like WHAM, you see that. Some great programming just happens to be syndicated, like Rush. As far as weekends, we do have quite a bit of local programming. It is paid programming, but local. We also have news in the mornings. Again, thank you so much for listening, and perhaps you may want to send your comments and suggestions to our program director.
Click to expand...

Ok, agreed. And thank you. You could say I'm a listener as a result of turning on The Lake one morning and hearing WBEN. Now it's on almost every minute I'm at home or in the car.
 
Buddy Shula said:
Yes, WBEN does not have the biggest cume in the city. WKSE does. But who cares. Any medium that reaches thousands of people is great. If I told an advertiser I can reach one in every 8 people in Buffalo, they would love to hear that. In fact, you now have me an idea to do that.
Click to expand...

Using a standard reach and frequency calculator using the stated cume and the 6 AM to 12 MN AQH average of 10,000 persons, unless you run well over 50 spots a week, the best you can hope for with a more normal 24 to 36 spots a week is a reach of about 60 to 70 and a frequency of 3.
 
DavidEduardo said:


Using a standard reach and frequency calculator using the stated cume and the 6 AM to 12 MN AQH average of 10,000 persons, unless you run well over 50 spots a week, the best you can hope for with a more normal 24 to 36 spots a week is a reach of about 60 to 70 and a frequency of 3.
Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about?? You know nothing about reach and frequency obviously. I am sitting in front of the Neilson ratings and scheduler. First off, you mention no demo. The demo I use for WBEN is 35 plus. You have zero idea what you are talking about. I get a three frequency for advertisers by running 10 prime time spots. Secondly, who gives a shit about a three frequency??? That is an 80's tv term. I have no idea who you are, but when you bill 2 million dollars direct like I do at WBEN, then let's talk. I have been on air and in radio sales for 35 years dude. I know how to get results and your observations are null and void.
 
Buddy Shula said:
What the hell are you talking about?? You know nothing about reach and frequency obviously. I am sitting in front of the Neilson ratings and scheduler. First off, you mention no demo. The demo I use for WBEN is 35 plus. You have zero idea what you are talking about. I get a three frequency for advertisers by running 10 prime time spots. Secondly, who gives a shit about a three frequency??? That is an 80's tv term. I have no idea who you are, but when you bill 2 million dollars direct like I do at WBEN, then let's talk. I have been on air and in radio sales for 35 years dude. I know how to get results and your observations are null and void.
Click to expand...

If this is going to be a pissing contest, I have been selling since 1961 and my first account was Coca Cola for a print publication. I've been a multi-station cluster owner and GSM going back to the 60's. A more recent station group I was, among other things, DoS and increased gross billings an average of 28% a year over a 10 year period.

Reach and frequency requires considerable math. I use either an old DOS version of the Westinghouse NuMath or the NuMath slide rule that Westinghouse sold to any station back in the 60's. I bought enough of them to give one to every media buyer and planner in my market back then... about 400 of them... and then gave a number of the local broadcasters' association seminars on buying r&f.

Reach & Frequency is a radio concept, too. And you can't have one without the other because you need to specify either of the two in order to get the other.

If a campaign's goal is the have a determined frequency (% of cume in demo reached the desired number of average times), then you have to have to look at both the cume and the TSL.

To begin with, there are light users of a station that are nearly impossible to reach successfully Efficiency drops considerably once you try to get a reach of over 65 to 70 as you need so many more spots to tet even a frequency of 1 for the occasional listeners. That's because in the diary world, on average, under 40% of the cume gives 90% or more of the TSL.

Most advertisers want to know the frequency as they also know that one weekly impression is not enough and there is a also a point where you reach the My Pillow 'point of overkill'.
 
DavidEduardo said:


If this is going to be a pissing contest, I have been selling since 1961 and my first account was Coca Cola for a print publication. I've been a multi-station cluster owner and GSM going back to the 60's. A more recent station group I was, among other things, DoS and increased gross billings an average of 28% a year over a 10 year period.

Reach and frequency requires considerable math. I use either an old DOS version of the Westinghouse NuMath or the NuMath slide rule that Westinghouse sold to any station back in the 60's. I bought enough of them to give one to every media buyer and planner in my market back then... about 400 of them... and then gave a number of the local broadcasters' association seminars on buying r&f.

Reach & Frequency is a radio concept, too. And you can't have one without the other because you need to specify either of the two in order to get the other.

If a campaign's goal is the have a determined frequency (% of cume in demo reached the desired number of average times), then you have to have to look at both the cume and the TSL.

To begin with, there are light users of a station that are nearly impossible to reach successfully Efficiency drops considerably once you try to get a reach of over 65 to 70 as you need so many more spots to tet even a frequency of 1 for the occasional listeners. That's because in the diary world, on average, under 40% of the cume gives 90% or more of the TSL.

Most advertisers want to know the frequency as they also know that one weekly impression is not enough and there is a also a point where you reach the My Pillow 'point of overkill'.
Click to expand...

You speak like you know what you are doing in the agency world, but in the world of local direct business, which the radio industry needs to tilt to, doesn't care about these metrics. I have 1 percent agency revenue at the cluster I work for. 99 percent direct. Nobody cares about reach and frequency. They care about results only. reach and frequency are a bullshit industry sales tool. Has nothing to do with results. So in a nutshell, I get your point, you have obviously been dealing with plenty of agencies , but with local direct business, I or my clients could care less about these outdated metrics.
 
Buddy Shula said:
You speak like you know what you are doing in the agency world, but in the world of local direct business, which the radio industry needs to tilt to, doesn't care about these metrics. I have 1 percent agency revenue at the cluster I work for. 99 percent direct. Nobody cares about reach and frequency. They care about results only. reach and frequency are a bullshit industry sales tool. Has nothing to do with results. So in a nutshell, I get your point, you have obviously been dealing with plenty of agencies , but with local direct business, I or my clients could care less about these outdated metrics.
Click to expand...

There is nothing outdated about reach & frequency. If you go into modeling that includes new media as well as all forms of traditional media right down to newspapers, you have to have some way of evaluating the spend and determining the allocation and judging the results.

But on the local level, we need to show advertisers that they need to be on more than just the morning show. That is when we do our own r&f and show those local accounts how buying RoS across the dayparts increases potential customer reach and, with average inventory prices, gets more spots for fewer dollars. The advertiser does not need to see the math, just the concept

RAB used to have those neat flip charts that showed how you got more impressions by buying more dayparts, and how such a buy often cost less! That material, which for small advertisers is just as valid today as in the 70's, is a big help for today's small businesses.

The first cluster I owned was in a million-plus market and all 9 stations together did about 90% agency business as the local accounts could not afford top tier stations. So I focused on the agencies and did all that selling myself. Years later, with our group in markets like Tallahassee, Lake City and Mayagüez, we got only a small piece of business from agencies, so we developed equally effective direct sales strategies. And we adapted some agency sales techniques that involved metrics to local sales as I found that a relationship based on confidence included both a strong relationship and a demonstration of the value of an ad investment. At that point, a client became a partner, and it was much easier to work on the right copy and an optimum schedule.
 
DavidEduardo said:


If this is going to be a pissing contest, I have been selling since 1961 and my first account was Coca Cola for a print publication. I've been a multi-station cluster owner and GSM going back to the 60's. A more recent station group I was, among other things, DoS and increased gross billings an average of 28% a year over a 10 year period.

Reach and frequency requires considerable math. I use either an old DOS version of the Westinghouse NuMath or the NuMath slide rule that Westinghouse sold to any station back in the 60's. I bought enough of them to give one to every media buyer and planner in my market back then... about 400 of them... and then gave a number of the local broadcasters' association seminars on buying r&f.

Reach & Frequency is a radio concept, too. And you can't have one without the other because you need to specify either of the two in order to get the other.

If a campaign's goal is the have a determined frequency (% of cume in demo reached the desired number of average times), then you have to have to look at both the cume and the TSL.

To begin with, there are light users of a station that are nearly impossible to reach successfully Efficiency drops considerably once you try to get a reach of over 65 to 70 as you need so many more spots to tet even a frequency of 1 for the occasional listeners. That's because in the diary world, on average, under 40% of the cume gives 90% or more of the TSL.

Most advertisers want to know the frequency as they also know that one weekly impression is not enough and there is a also a point where you reach the My Pillow 'point of overkill'.
Click to expand...

You forgot the mic-drop.
 
flybynight said:
You forgot the mic-drop.
Click to expand...
mic drop? Both of these posters have presented some valid points in their little dust-up. Eduardo addresses the issue of proper and effective use of metrics, and Shula addresses direct local sales. Each addresses relationship selling. I think we have two ardent believers in radio here. If I was an owner-manager, I'd like both on my staff. They're competitors and believers. They might kill each other, and they'd drive people nuts, but their zeal would rub off on the rest of the staff. Radio needs true believers these days. It also needs people who have respect for the game. Bet they'd be making a ton of money for my radio station. Now if Shula would only get his shoes shined regularly. Twelve percent of $2 million local direct, you'd think he could afford it.
 
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17 percent element. But who's counting. I could care less about shoes. Clients are about results, not shoes. However, i do where a cowboy hat every once in a while. Your right. We are all passionate radio people. I live and breathe this industry. It has been good to me, but it helps when you surround yourself with the best people who know more than me. Entercom has that. Great people.
 
Buddy Shula said:
17 percent element. But who's counting. I could care less about shoes. Clients are about results, not shoes. However, i do where a cowboy hat every once in a while. Your right. We are all passionate radio people. I live and breathe this industry. It has been good to me, but it helps when you surround yourself with the best people who know more than me. Entercom has that. Great people.
Click to expand...

"Where" a cowboy hat?
Don't need no stinking badges or shoes to sell advertising...
 
I am the top billing direct rep, not only at entercom, but probably of all media in Buffalo. I get clients results. I do not even look at reach and frequency, and my clients don't ask. They all get tremendous results from radio. I do all script writing, voicing, concepts, ideas. The last thing I think about is placing a client commercial all over every day part. That is outdated. I believe in owning a day part, any day part. Every station has listeners. The key is what you are saying to them. Clients do not give a shit about metrics other than how did their month go. I get the biggest results that my clients have ever seen. That is why they all stay with me. Greatness is not good enough! You have to go beyond great.
 
Buddy Shula said:
I am the top billing direct rep, not only at entercom, but probably of all media in Buffalo. I get clients results. I do not even look at reach and frequency, and my clients don't ask. They all get tremendous results from radio. I do all script writing, voicing, concepts, ideas. The last thing I think about is placing a client commercial all over every day part. That is outdated. I believe in owning a day part, any day part. Every station has listeners. The key is what you are saying to them. Clients do not give a shit about metrics other than how did their month go. I get the biggest results that my clients have ever seen. That is why they all stay with me. Greatness is not good enough! You have to go beyond great.
Click to expand...

If you think every client is the same, you have a fundamental misconception. A presentation and a package have to be customized for each client.

If you don't care about metrics, then you won't sell with them as part of your toolbox. I see data as something that can be used with direct accounts to show the safety of a buy and I have used data often as a final note just before a trial close.

Huge presence in a single show or daypart may work for "mass appeal" clients who can be very successful by reaching a subset of that one segment's audience. But clients with a consumer base of a small sliver of potential listeners need exposure across several stations and many dayparts.

A car dealer is at the mass market extreme, as many families have several and they change them regularly. At the other end would be Lasik surgery, which is done once in a lifetime and not by everyone and is much less of an impulse or image buy.

There are also clients who will never fit a specific station. How many times have you turned down an account for that reason?
 
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